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Susanne Cook-Greuter and the "Ironist"

Last post 07-16-2007, 9:38 AM by IAMisHome. 23 replies.
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  •  06-28-2007, 10:29 AM 24955

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    Susanne Cook-Greuter and the "Ironist"

    I really enjoyed her series of Susanne Cook-Greuter videos on ego development. I am having trouble finding more available information on the net about this so called "Ironist" stage, the one past magician/alchemist... what is it? Are there any links to more of her videos about that?

    -james

    I'm the left eye, you're the right,
    would it not be madness to fight?
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  •  06-28-2007, 12:16 PM 24962 in reply to 24955

    Re: Susanne Cook-Greuter and the "Ironist"

    Hi James,

    I started a thread about SCG over at Zaadz. You can find it here.


    Pelle

    http://pelle.zaadz.com/
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  •  06-28-2007, 6:01 PM 24975 in reply to 24962

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    Re: Susanne Cook-Greuter and the "Ironist"

    I've never been exposed to Zaadz before but thanks, I've signed up for a username. I'm certain I'll figure it out, and the PDF link you posted there worked for me. Looking forward to reading that.



    I'm the left eye, you're the right,
    would it not be madness to fight?
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  •  06-29-2007, 11:57 AM 25011 in reply to 24962

    Re: Susanne Cook-Greuter and the "Ironist"

    thanks for the shock treatment, pelle!  (i need to keep better in mind that, afterall, you are a shrink Big Smile [:D])

    i docily followed your links, was completely discombobulated by lindsey's message and, then, rendered pretty much catatonic by the statistics for our current global superpower, which i happen to be a member of.Embarrassed [:$]  maybe this was what KW was getting at when he noted the correlations of latitude with altitude and unhappiness.

    ralphTongue Tied [:S]



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  •  06-29-2007, 2:15 PM 25020 in reply to 24955

    Re: Susanne Cook-Greuter and the "Ironist"

    James, it seems you have a good influence on me Smile [:)]  I read the Suzanne Cook-Greuter' series following the reading of your post.  So interesting!  I knew the language very important but not at this point for specialists in the different stages of Development.

    I wasn't able to follow your link Pelle so I don't know, right now, what you speak about the subject on zaadz.

    I would be also interested to know more about the Ironist stage.  She said to be excited.  At the question why she was excited, she answered by the fact she doesn't know.  Do you imagine what it is to be discovering something totally new, something where so few people are aware of?  She doesn't know what the words will give to her.  Of what her world will be done. 

    I often tried to change my way to write wishing to change my way of thinking. [Big Smile [:D]  It's so intrinsically linked.  A representation of our mind, just like other things around us.  Like fairyfaye said, it emanates from inside of us.

    Thanks to Susanne Cook-Greuter for her work and for I-I to be so generous.

    Martine

     

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  •  06-29-2007, 7:42 PM 25035 in reply to 25020

    Re: Susanne Cook-Greuter and the "Ironist"

    The Unitive stage 6 or The Ironist10 Stage:
    From the ancient wisdom literature to recent research in higher stages of consciousness
    there is evidence of many more stages beyond the rational, personal realm or postconventional
    tier of meaning making (see table 1 for Wilber’s full-spectrum model of consciousness). How
    many such stages exists depends on the literature consulted and the criteria by which stages are
    defined. The data from using a Sentence Completion Test as a gathering tool did not allow me to
    make any finer distinctions in the ego-transcendent realm. My description of the Unitive stage
    thus confounds several distinct higher levels of consciousness into one catch-all level. Still, the
    characteristics were carefully taken from actual utterances from individuals who did score at this
    highest stage of the SCTi measure.

    The Unitive stage presents an entirely new way of perceiving human existence and
    consciousness. The previous way of viewing reality solely from the self’s perspective and
    through the medium of language is transformed. The new paradigm has a universal or cosmic
    perspective. Unitive individuals experience themselves and others as part of ongoing humanity,
    embedded in the creative ground, fulfilling the destiny of evolution. The two sides of the
    Pascalian paradox are integrated: feelings of belongingness and feelings of one’s separateness
    and uniqueness are experienced without undue tension as changing perceptions of many
    possibilities of being. At this level of integration, adults can look at themselves and at other
    beings in terms of the passing of ages, of near and far in geographical, social, cultural, historical,
    intellectual and developmental dimensions. They can take multiple points of view and shift focus
    effortlessly among many states of awareness. They feel embedded in nature - birth, growth and
    death, joy and pain - are seen as natural occurrences, - patterns of change in the flux of time.
    Consciousness or rational awareness is no longer perceived as a shackle, but as just another
    phenomenon that assumes foreground or background status depending on one’s momentary
    attention. Persons at the Unitive stage can see a world in a grain of sand, that is, they can
    perceive the concrete, limited, and temporal aspects of an entity simultaneously with its eternal
    and symbolic meaning. Because of this unitive ability (Maslow, 1971, p. 111) they can cherish
    the humanness in the seemingly most undifferentiated beings and feel at one with them. They
    respect the essence in others and therefore do not need them to be different than they are. It is
    important to realize that from a unitive point of view higher stages are not better than lower ones
    because all are necessary parts of interconnected reality and an overall evolutionary process.
    Unitive thinkers also accept themselves “as is” in a non-controlling way. No matter how great
    their achievements may be, they are aware that these are only a drop in the pool of ongoing
    human endeavors. Sensitive others are often struck by the humility and grace that they
    experience in the presence of Unitive individuals. Being down-to-earth (simplicity on the other
    side of complexity) can be one of the most salient differences between personal and
    transpersonal ways of meaning making.


    On the other hand, Individuals at this latest ego stage may be perceived as “aloof,” as not
    enough engaged in the goals, pursuits, concerns of common humanity especially from the
    perspective of Self-conscious individuals and Conscientious persons, even Autonomous
    individuals may feel that way. What is not evident to these critics is that Unitive adults often act
    as catalysts in shaping others’ lives. In being what they are without excuses, they challenge
    others’ perspectives, and demonstrate a way of being human that is different from the evaluative,
    conventional ideas about what it means to be an adult. They manifest a deeper security about
    being, than is possible with a rationally generated self-identity. In contrast to all other stages,
    Unitive individuals seem to have intense, non-demanding relationships with people regardless of
    their development, age, gender, or any other identifications. Because they see the dignity in all
    manifestations of life, they can make others feel worthy and whole.

    Realm:
    universe, time/space continuum
    Time frame: eternity
    Cognition: Unitive concepts embraced
    Preoccupation: Being, noncontrolling consciousness;
    witnessing of flux of experience and states of mind
    Positive equilibration: Accepting, unassuming presence; fully
    empathetic, non-interfering ability to be with whatever is.
    Truth: immanent; experiential truth of interconnectedness and
    nonseparateness, existence as changing states of awareness
    Multiperspectival; center no longer in within timeless spirit.
    the ego, but the higher Self

    Unitive persons have a completely internalized transpersonal or interindividual morality.
    Inner conflicts and conflicting external demands simply are part of being and need not be
    resolved or denied, only witnessed. They are no longer driven by desires to be one way or
    another, to achieve one state or another. Instead they can let go of the unattainable. Concerned
    with global justice, spontaneity, existence & creativity. Rather than passivity, the non-attached,
    impersonal stance allows for greater and more direct and powerful action where action is needed.
    Reality is now deeply experienced at times as the undifferentiated phenomenological
    continuum or the creative ground of unified consciousness. Every object, word, thought, feeling
    and sensation, every theory is understood as a human construct: separating out, creating
    boundaries where there are none. The quest for meaning and connection is an essential aspect of
    the human condition. Stage 6 individuals feel interconnected with others as all sentient beings
    struggle to survive and make sense of their existence. Persons at the Unitive stage feel tolerance,
    compassion and an affiliation with all manifestations of life. The simplest flatworm is in some
    way as close to the truth as the most sophisticated thinker. Peak experiences no longer have an
    out-of-this-world quality, they have become a familiar way of being and experiencing. The
    present is where the past and the future interpenetrate. Total openness releases individuals to be
    in tune with truth and beauty, to have visionary experiences, that is, to comprehend things in a
    holistic, analog way in addition to apprehending them through the filter of the rational mind.
    Unitive perceivers can shift focus without effort and behold the whole simultaneously with
    its constituting variables. They operate within an expanded time frame which includes all of
    earth’s history and its future. Life is seen as a form of temporary and sometimes voluntary
    separation (Bodhisattva vow) from the creative ground to which it will eventually return. Though
    adults at the Unitive stage are aware of themselves as separate and unique embodiments, they
    also identify with all other living beings. The separation of self from others is experienced as an
    illusion, an invention to safeguard the ego’s need for permanence and self- importance and to
    defend against the fear of its death.

    Unitive individuals therefore seem to transcend narrow ego-boundaries. They have open
    boundaries and are attuned to rather than preoccupied with whatever enters awareness. The term
    witnessing (rather than observing) can be used here to describe the capacity of people at this
    stage to metabolize experience without the conscious, willed focus and preoccupations of other
    adult stages. The Truth is imminent in the universe and can be apprehended in this ready, openprocess
    stance, but it cannot be grasped by purely rational means.

    Unitive adults have an integrated sense of unique identity as participants in the evolution of
    the cosmos. They are in tune with their precious “life’s work” as a simultaneous expression of
    their unique selves and as part of one’s shared humanity. They also care about the fundamental
    dilemma of the human condition. They work for justice, fairness, and benevolence towards all.
    Though taking responsibility for meaning making, they don’t perceive themselves to be the sole
    and lone masters of their souls as envisioned by Autonomous individuals and to some degree
    Construct-aware people. Ways of being are infinite. Clues for the variety of possibilities of being
    are offered by the study of human history, by our current experience of human diversity and
    likely with new forms of being human evolving in the future, in nature, and in alternative, nonwaking
    states of consciousness. Life can appear as fulfilling a cosmic purpose and therefore it is
    essentially simple. Doing or thinking are just modes of existing, but not intrinsically more
    valuable than feeling, being or non-being. The last is probably the most difficult idea to grasp by
    most people who have not developed beyond the personal realm. As a Buddhist percept says:
    Understanding is the ultimate illusion.

    To summarize, Unitive adults are more likely to have a balanced, integrated sense of both
    their belongingness and separateness as individuals because they feel part of the ongoing
    evolution of the universe in all its aspects and cycles of creation, destruction, and recreation.

    Language clues: Unitive individuals use a global array of topics and concerns which are
    sometimes expressed within one response. They have a vast mental space to roam in because of
    the unitive ability. Kaleidoscopic responses bridge different levels and types of contrasts:
    concrete--practical; theoretical--philosophical; personal--global; serious--humorous; physical--
    psychological– metaphysical , mundane and sublime. Unitive responses to the SCTi may have
    unique and vivid expressions, or creative metaphors to express the ordinary and non-ordinary
    experiences. Occasionally one finds very simple responses in an Unitive SCT protocol. Although
    rated at face-value, this is not counter-indicative as spontaneity and straightforward simplicity is
    an essential element of wisdom and ego-transcendence. While Construct-aware meaning makers
    have the most complex and richly differentiated view of reality in the personal realm, Unitive
    adults stand outside the “desperate” need for meaning making common to all earlier stages
    seeing as they do the non-necessity to shield and bolster the ego.

    Detailed Descriptions Of The SCTi Stages of Ego Development
    ©2005 Cook-Greuter 34

    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  06-29-2007, 8:28 PM 25037 in reply to 25020

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    Re: Susanne Cook-Greuter and the "Ironist"

    IAMisHome:


    I often tried to change my way to write wishing to change my way of thinking. [Big Smile [:D]  It's so intrinsically linked.  A representation of our mind, just like other things around us.  Like fairyfaye said, it emanates from inside of us.

     


    "My way of thinking."

    This statement interests me because in my experience, we don't really control directly the 'way' we think, nor the thoughts that come into our heads. Certainly activity is happening on a neurological level, linked to emotion and bodily sensations and likely as a series of reflexes to your society and environment. But are these thoughts and this 'way of thinking' actually yours? No. Whose are they? Difficult to say, but there is at very least a vested interest in terms of millions of stakeholders.

    Do you understand? Thinking is noise that is happening in your environment and is likely very much a product of your environment. Quieten that noise and listen, and you will see that those same thoughts that were in your head are just as readily picked up unconsciously by those surrounding you, as if those thoughts were their own. Often, I find, I just noticed that the thought 'was there', and then someone nearby will vocalize it, even just listening to a crowd of people at a mall.

    You are speaking at a table with a friend, and drop a keyword, a specific usage of a specific word. ... pull away and listen for it. If you are in a crowd, the topic may change and/or the word may be used. Were they listening to your conversation? No, not really. But one of them seem s to havepicked up the word or topic, regardless. Drop little pebbles in the pond, ignore the splash and the sinking stone, concentrate on the ripples of your presence. When they cross another mind, they create an interference pattern. This interference can be perceived. Interaction and association is implicit in thought.

    Telepathy? No, I don't think we need worn out stereotyped words to represent this reality, but for the Ironist I think that something similar (and intensely subtle) is essentially what we are witnessing, during this stage of ego development. All symbols and all concepts too, in language, depend on one another.

    If we think in symbols and concepts, and they absolutely must depend on one another, then our thoughts, like the components of language, absolutely must depend on other thoughts, and equally, the thoughts of others.

    You can try this exercise I discovered while meditating recently. When you catch yourself thinking, or when you deliberately think, try to 'hear' the voice of those thoughts. Beside the thought implicitly telling you that it objectively reporting reality to you, it also implicitly infers that you are the thinker of the thought, and it does so by creating the impression of the thought coming through as your voice.

    But it is not a sound, and it is not your voice, for if you listen you will find that this 'voice' you've assumed is there does not sound like your own. It doesn't 'sound' like anythyour ing. At this point watch carefully as subtly, but willingly, you move your vocal muscles in throat and mouth in order to sustain the illusion that you are 'speaking' those thoughts.

    So... to change your 'way of thinking'... examine the assumptions first: is there thinking happening? Is there a certain way that differs from any other way? And, of course, do the thoughts,this thinking and this or that way belong to you, specifically?

    Good luck!

    -james


    I'm the left eye, you're the right,
    would it not be madness to fight?
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  •  06-29-2007, 8:47 PM 25038 in reply to 25035

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    Re: Susanne Cook-Greuter and the "Ironist"

    By the way (How I love to double-post) if there is any way one of you can direct me to that Sentence Completion Test (SCTi?) on the net or wherever, I'd be curious to take it. I've been rummaging around trying to find my bearings for a long while.
     
    While I'm sure I can dig around more, I thought I'd mention that I am looking for the SCT, in case anyone can post a shortcut?

    I'm the left eye, you're the right,
    would it not be madness to fight?
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  •  06-29-2007, 9:33 PM 25040 in reply to 25038

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    Re: Susanne Cook-Greuter and the "Ironist"

    Found it.

    http://www.cook-greuter.com/LDPFormPromotion.htm

    But holy shit! Expensive?? I'm only a student. How I love brick walls.


    I'm the left eye, you're the right,
    would it not be madness to fight?
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  •  06-30-2007, 8:29 AM 25054 in reply to 25040

    Re: Susanne Cook-Greuter and the "Ironist"


    hi james,

    i-i was wanting to implement this test, which would have made it available to alot more of us, but it also proved to be too expensive for them. hopefully, they won't give up on this idea.

    ralph

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  •  06-30-2007, 8:43 AM 25055 in reply to 25040

    Re: Susanne Cook-Greuter and the "Ironist"

    Thanks for this. How long is this link good for?  I am going to start saving my money for this.  What a resource to be able to know where you are on the spiral and how to move yourself!  

    Will this link be good for some time? 

    lizzie 

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  •  06-30-2007, 10:18 AM 25059 in reply to 25055

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    Re: Susanne Cook-Greuter and the "Ironist"

    Be careful to prioritize Lizzie. Take a look at the PDF and videos and see if you can place yourself. As much as this work looks exciting, I really am wary of the cost. I don't want to make it seem as if I've decided to rush headlong into this particular subjective realm and thrown my money all over, only to come up with results that I could have likely figured out myself with some effort, by looking at Loevinger et al.

    That money might very well be used much more effectively. Though I can see why it might be worth it to those heavily invested in the Integral Institute as leaders or teachers.

    Turns out I don't 'seem' like an Ironist to Susanne, who did take the time to email a short thanks for the data and my admittedly brief manner of presenting it to her... on the other hand maybe I've just worked too many overnights in downtown Ottawa, and am sensitive (over-sensitive?) to potential cons.

    Alternatively, I've filled out way too many surveys for sociologists and psychologists. I'm a little rough around the edges.

    Good luck,

    -james

    I'm the left eye, you're the right,
    would it not be madness to fight?
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  •  06-30-2007, 12:26 PM 25062 in reply to 25011

    Re: Susanne Cook-Greuter and the "Ironist"

    ralphweidner:

    thanks for the shock treatment, pelle!  (i need to keep better in mind that, afterall, you are a shrink Big Smile [:D])




    He he, even though I quit my job as a doctor I'll be happy to give you a nice shock treatment any time Ralph Stick out tongue [:P]


    Pelle

    http://pelle.zaadz.com/
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  •  07-01-2007, 1:50 AM 25079 in reply to 25062

    Re: Susanne Cook-Greuter and the "Ironist"

    hi pelle,

    i'd wondered what happened to lindsey--if she had stepped in a black hole or what? now i think i know. hopefully she had a passport out of the country. i don't. i might have to become an illegal emigrant.

    but i shouldn't give you all the credit, however deftly you served up table 3 to us. as KW noted in his conversation with SCG, she can be quite undiplomatic in her frank appraisals of my people, even harvard professors! no mincing words: the bare facts, the unadulterated statistics.

    if green really did emerge in the usa some forty years ago now, most of them evidently fled to the uk and began working on the emergence of an integral age there, leaving my usa in a sorrowfully regressed state. no wonder i-i hasn't been able to make it to turquoise!

    seriously, the table just appears out of the blue without any explanation. she appears to have had limited data to work with, e.g. managers and consultants in the uk vs. managers and supervisors in the usa. she strikes me as an honest, very perceptive person, someone i'm afraid we usans can't just laugh off. KW has been warning us we've got problems, but not specifically this one.

    i really am shocked, partly because it actually fits quite well with many of my own personal experiences that i've dismissed as just those of hypercritical ralph. tell me it ain't so, pelle.

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  •  07-01-2007, 5:34 PM 25104 in reply to 25037

    Re: Susanne Cook-Greuter and the "Ironist"

    timelody, it is very kind of you to give us that information.  Where does it come from?  If it is a book, wich one?

    I found your comment very interesting James. You're not denying the place of three of four quadrants: neurological level (UR), emotion and bodily sensations (UL) and reflexes to your society and environment (LR) but you put the emphasis on LL.  If I feel very well what you're saying and agree with you,  I maintain this My way of thinking.  If a painter is truly and amazingly inspired by its environment, it is all the same his hand who is painting. It is his own and personal way of giving back this inspiration.  Yes, we bathe in the same mixture but we have, each of us, an unique way to express it.  An unique voice. 

    Martine

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