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Integral Video Games: Reloaded

Last post 07-17-2008, 8:52 AM by Fangsz. 40 replies.
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  •  10-07-2007, 12:39 AM 29606

    Integral Video Games: Reloaded

    I read this article:

    http://http://www.wired.com/gaming/virtualworlds/magazine/15-09/ff_halo

    a while ago when it appeared in an issue of Wired and have been meaning to start a new discussion on integral video games ever since, hopefully with a bit less baggage on my part than the last time:

    http://multiplex.integralinstitute.org/Public/cs/forums/thread/2108.aspx

    but more on that later.

    The Halo 3 article really fascinated me.  To me it seems like such a cool example of how one might look at video game creation from an UR and LR point of view.  I mean, their right-hand quadrant meticulousness is just astounding.  However, if you really get deep into the narrative, I think from an interior point of view it doesn't really say a whole lot.  (I should note that I've only really played the first game all the way through, so I'm not really basing my evalution of the Halo story on a full view of the story; I really can't afford an Xbox 360 AND a Playstation 3, and I've always been a Playstation guy).

    Thus, the question for me that comes up in this is, what would video game development look like among those using an AQAL approach?

    In the realm of quadrants, there are a lot of things to consider.  Are individual and collective represented by single-player and multi-player, or are these distinctions merely artistic tools providing for different means of interaction between players and developers, both of whom can be using one or all of the quadrivium lenses?  How can an interior experience like Big Mind be portrayed through the interactive art form?  What would be the corresponding exteriors that would be necissary in creating a representational virtual environment?

    Also, it seems to me that there are three major lines involved in video game development.  This is not to say that there aren't more lines involved, but these are the ones that are coming up for me.  First, there's the narrative line, concerning what kind of story the developers want to tell.  Next, I think video games are also a kind of thrill ride, something very similar to a theme park ride in that it is almost a peice of art whose meaning is conveyed through a physical process of moving through an environment.  This, I think, runs very close to the asthetic line.  Also, though I'm not sure if this corresponds with any line that has actually been researched, but there seems to also be a "game" line present in video games (though I guess that should be obvious), creating a set of rules in which play can occur, and in the most creative instances, continue to break the rules and form new ones.

    Other elements of the AQAL matrix could be interesting employed as well, of course, but I can't really wrap my mind around that at the moment, though I guess I also touched on States a bit with that Big Mind question.

    So what do you all think?  Is the worlds first AQAL video game a subject worth discussion?

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  •  10-07-2007, 4:01 PM 29636 in reply to 29606

    • atman101 is not online. Last active: 10-10-2008, 1:46 AM atman101
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    Re: Integral Video Games: Reloaded

    I do believe you're right on target Fangsz - you have to be ;-)  cuz Ive been wrestling the last 8 years with "master designing" a game that would facilitate growth up the spiral ladder and ultimately facilitate Big Mind and echoing into 

    morphogenetic fields - thus massaging the World Soul.(*watch out space cadet inc - not a bad pull, ehh?*)

     

    I really feel an urge to share what I've come up with so far. Mostly because it's instrumental in taking this project further, and thus joining and hooking up with other integral informed ressources/competencies - and also because I've carried this project solo for so long - that I occationally need a "reality check" in broader fora.

     

    For many reason I will continue to control my urge to share. But let me adress your question: "..what would video game development look like among those using an AQAL approach?" - and giving just small glimpses of what Ive working with.

     

    -Singleplayer or Multiplayer - it will be both depending on what kind of "quest/puzzle/task" you're on. Judging from the avatar portrait you've choosen I know you'll understand when I say, it comes pretty close to what the world today know as MMORPG (Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game).

    -In addtion to traditional interfacing gadgets like joystick and keyboard - the game is using EEG/Neuro feedback devices. Field research in this area is undergoing as we speak - and as more preminlary data has been collected - which is pretty soon, I'll send KW a thesis/dissertation - to get further refinements and distinctions added. And also hoping this will open up much needed connections with likeminded.(/hint/hint Ken - hook me up with the W brothers and lets make a geniune Matrix Online and not the derailed and wimpy stuff that Warner Bros did to that story and the intentionality behind it!)

    The above mentioned would be some major pieces of the puzzle regarding your question about "facilitating/portraying Big Mind". And again, please correct me if im wrong about my assumptions of your knowledge with mmorpg's, - wouldnt it be cool if your elvish avatar got its actual powers (mana and potens of magic used) from your actual compentence in reaching "higher states of mind"? But again, the more you get that kind of gaming powers (reflecting your actual altitudes witin relevant streams of consciousness and the abillity to access higher states of consciousness) the less you will be occupied with "descending into lower realms where the meanest motherf..... rules the game - and where that kind of "gaming power" would make any sense in the first place. But there would/could be quests given to you, reflecting tasks/issues you personally needed to adress or just tasks needed to be done for the sake of the entire spiral.

    -Loose "structural guides for narratives": No need to say that the narratives will be governed by "high altitude designed moral compasses".

    As you progress though quests, the game will level by level more and more cross over to "irl" thus shifting from AI interaction to human-human interaction and quests will be assigned by "irl" wisdom councils.....that ought to do it... for now.

     

    Anyway - I see a lot of lesser ambitious gaming development being needed, and my research has already "spinned off" some interesting applications (stressmanagment, to take one lucrative example - yeah, the project needs funding)- but as always crystal clear pointed out by KW, the prime directive is the health of the entire spiral, not preferential treatment for any one level....even if every society on earth were established fully at second tier, nonetheless every infant born in every society still has to start at level 1....and none of them can be demeaned without grave consequenses to self and society.

     

    So that subject is more than worth discussing - but we - and I say mostly that to myself..stop talking...walk the talk...the world badly needs integral informed artifacts and especially within video gaming which already have won the hearts and minds of most amber-redish young climbers of the spiral in the northern western hemisphere. I dare not depend on or wait for Microsoft, Sony, Vivendi Universal - to get into the program, take care of and AQALize the intentions behind game development.

     

    Thanks for "reloading" Fangsz

     


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  •  10-07-2007, 4:01 PM 29637 in reply to 29606

    • atman101 is not online. Last active: 10-10-2008, 1:46 AM atman101
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    Re: Integral Video Games: Reloaded

    I do believe you're right on target Fangsz - you have to be ;-)  cuz Ive been wrestling the last 8 years with "master designing" a game that would facilitate growth up the spiral ladder and ultimately facilitate Big Mind and echoing into 

    morphogenetic fields - thus massaging the World Soul.(*watch out space cadet inc - not a bad pull, ehh?*)

     

    I really feel an urge to share what I've come up with so far. Mostly because it's instrumental in taking this project further, and thus joining and hooking up with other integral informed ressources/competencies - and also because I've carried this project solo for so long - that I occationally need a "reality check" in broader fora.

     

    For many reason I will continue to control my urge to share. But let me adress your question: "..what would video game development look like among those using an AQAL approach?" - and giving just small glimpses of what Ive working with.

     

    -Singleplayer or Multiplayer - it will be both depending on what kind of "quest/puzzle/task" you're on. Judging from the avatar portrait you've choosen I know you'll understand when I say, it comes pretty close to what the world today know as MMORPG (Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game).

    -In addtion to traditional interfacing gadgets like joystick and keyboard - the game is using EEG/Neuro feedback devices. Field research in this area is undergoing as we speak - and as more preminlary data has been collected - which is pretty soon, I'll send KW a thesis/dissertation - to get further refinements and distinctions added. And also hoping this will open up much needed connections with likeminded.(/hint/hint Ken - hook me up with the W brothers and lets make a geniune Matrix Online and not the derailed and wimpy stuff that Warner Bros did to that story and the intentionality behind it!)

    The above mentioned would be some major pieces of the puzzle regarding your question about "facilitating/portraying Big Mind". And again, please correct me if im wrong about my assumptions of your knowledge with mmorpg's, - wouldnt it be cool if your elvish avatar got its actual powers (mana and potens of magic used) from your actual compentence in reaching "higher states of mind"? But again, the more you get that kind of gaming powers (reflecting your actual altitudes witin relevant streams of consciousness and the abillity to access higher states of consciousness) the less you will be occupied with "descending into lower realms where the meanest motherf..... rules the game - and where that kind of "gaming power" would make any sense in the first place. But there would/could be quests given to you, reflecting tasks/issues you personally needed to adress or just tasks needed to be done for the sake of the entire spiral.

    -Loose "structural guides for narratives": No need to say that the narratives will be governed by "high altitude designed moral compasses".

    As you progress though quests, the game will level by level more and more cross over to "irl" thus shifting from AI interaction to human-human interaction and quests will be assigned by "irl" wisdom councils.....that ought to do it... for now.

     

    Anyway - I see a lot of lesser ambitious gaming development being needed, and my research has already "spinned off" some interesting applications (stressmanagment, to take one lucrative example - yeah, the project needs funding)- but as always crystal clear pointed out by KW, the prime directive is the health of the entire spiral, not preferential treatment for any one level....even if every society on earth were established fully at second tier, nonetheless every infant born in every society still has to start at level 1....and none of them can be demeaned without grave consequenses to self and society.

     

    So that subject is more than worth discussing - but we - and I say mostly that to myself..stop talking...walk the talk...the world badly needs integral informed artifacts and especially within video gaming which already have won the hearts and minds of most amber-redish young climbers of the spiral in the northern western hemisphere. I dare not depend on or wait for Microsoft, Sony, Vivendi Universal - to get into the program, take care of and AQALize the intentions behind game development.

     

    Thanks for "reloading" Fangsz

     


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  •  10-08-2007, 1:21 AM 29656 in reply to 29606

    • bgilman is not online. Last active: 10-22-2007, 9:14 AM bgilman
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    Re: Integral Video Games: Reloaded

    This is my first post, and I'm new(as in just signed up yesterday) to the whole intergral approach, but, I worked in the industry on a few million+ selling games, so I might be able to provide some insight.

    1. The actual article overstates how "new" Microsoft's process is.  Just about every game company I know, that is half-decent, will bring people in off the street to test games and give feedback.  My company had a room set-up with a one way mirror, a camera towards the player, and a feed to what was being shown on the TV.   We'd also record various statistics.  It's not a  "new" science by any means.

    2.  I think making a good game that was optimized in all four quadrants would be logistically unfeasible.  What most people don't realize, is that as a medium, it takes far more work in terms of man-hours than any other medium.  I worked for a company that got games done a "quick" pace of 18 months per game, with roughly 80 people on the team.  Most companies take around 2-3 years per game(Halo 3 took roughly 3).  And that's just for games in established genre's, where designers have some idea of what will work.

    3. The major lines in video games would be, content(audio/visual), design(gameplay/story), and programming(inventing the world, and all of the tools to manipulate/perceive it). 

    4. I think a better question would be, "How could a small game be made that was very successful in the UL quadrant?".  Such a game has never been made.  I'd worry about coming up with something more integrated until that problem has been solved.

    Hope that makes sense.
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  •  10-08-2007, 1:57 PM 29668 in reply to 29656

    Re: Integral Video Games: Reloaded

    I'll respond more fully to both posts later, but as far as a small game that is successful in the UL quadrant... what about flOw?

    http://intihuatani.usc.edu/cloud/flowing/

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  •  10-08-2007, 2:07 PM 29669 in reply to 29656

    Re: Integral Video Games: Reloaded

    UL ?  I would think that most games cater to the UL experience.  I think it is possible to make a 4 quad game.  Actually Good MMOs currently have all 4 quads.

    Upper Left - player

    Upper Right-  3d payer character/avatar,

    Lower Left-  personal chat between players, player interaction with game

    Lower Right- clan structures, guilds, world economies. 

    That's why good MMOs are so damn successful, they're naturally encompass all 4 quads because they are in essence, a simulation of the real world experience.

     

     

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  •  10-08-2007, 11:07 PM 29682 in reply to 29656

    • atman101 is not online. Last active: 10-10-2008, 1:46 AM atman101
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    Re: Integral Video Games: Reloaded

    >>bgilman: How would one know if a game is succesfull in UL? Confused [8-)]

    I seek to know in order to serve
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  •  10-09-2007, 11:22 AM 29700 in reply to 29682

    Re: Integral Video Games: Reloaded

    perhaps he means an UL in the game making process.  It definitely is a rare thing to get a strong unique vision created when  there are so many hands in that kitchen.  To create an integrally minded game it would probably take a collective UL.  A holon of integrally minded people.  Now that wouldn't have to be the whole company, but at least the owners, and creative leads.  Also it would probably need a "Spiral Wizard" as Don Beck would say, who could over see the greater company structure.
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  •  10-09-2007, 2:07 PM 29705 in reply to 29669

    Re: Integral Video Games: Reloaded

    I'm going to respond to a few things in kind of random order, however it happens to come to me (there were some issues raised that I'd like to talk about that I may not get around to immediately just because I'm going to have to ponder them for a while):

    funkglorious:

    UL ?  I would think that most games cater to the UL experience.  I think it is possible to make a 4 quad game.  Actually Good MMOs currently have all 4 quads.

    Upper Left - player

    Upper Right-  3d payer character/avatar,

    Lower Left-  personal chat between players, player interaction with game

    Lower Right- clan structures, guilds, world economies. 

    That's why good MMOs are so damn successful, they're naturally encompass all 4 quads because they are in essence, a simulation of the real world experience.

     

     

    I think, in a larger sense, video games are essentially a LL phenomenon, a LL artifact, because they are an artifact of communication between the developers and the players, the creators and the audience, just like any work of art.  However, because everything exists in infinite holarchy, that LL artifact can be divided into four quadrants as areas of attention.  I'm mainly drawing off of Matt Rentchler's article on Integral Art in AQAL journal for this (http://aqaljournal.integralinstitute.org/public/Issues.aspx), but here's the four quadrants of video game development as I see them:

    UL- Focus on conveying a specific state, wordlview, something in the interior mindset of the lead artist(s) directly to the player through the game experience.

    LL- Focus on the communication between the players and the developers and how a work of art emerges from that dialogue, which in the case of video games is actually literally present in the work itself in the form of virtual interaction.

    UR- Focus on the actual form of the game, the details of its interactive surface, how complexity explicitly shows itself in the game.

    LR- Focus on how the game is relevant to the conditions it arises in.  What does it do on a social scale?  What collective interactions are visible in the exterior of the game?

    So I'm looking at it more from an artistic angle, verses a simulation angle, when I say all that, because I beleive ultimately what video games should be is art, but if anyone has a different idea on what the video game medium should ultimately become, I'd like to hear it.  I think overall, it's a medium that's still in its early stages, so what does everyone think it should evolve into, besides becoming more integral?

    It's important to note that I've never made a video game before (aside from a very simple one at a summer camp several years ago) and it will likely be a long time before I'll have that opportunity.  I'll go ahead and say that I'm currently still a senior in high school, I plan to study film in college, and then get into the video game medium somewhat indirectly by doing something similar to what the Wachowski Brothers did with Enter the Matrix and The Path of Neo (if there has ever been anything close to an integral video game, I beleive it's the latter of those two).  I say that so you can have some idea where I'm going as far as the practical applications of this are concerned, and so, since many of you have said what you have worked on or are currently working on involving video games, we can all know what real world effects this dialogue might have.

    I want to get back to that biofeedback comment, atman, and the general idea of your video game, but I'm going to have to save that for another day.  Also, bgillman, it will be interesting to get an industry insider's perspective on all this, and I'll respond more fully to your comments later as well.

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  •  10-09-2007, 3:36 PM 29710 in reply to 29705

    Re: Integral Video Games: Reloaded

    ^

    yeah, that is the quadrivium for games as an artform.  With the UL being the creator/creation process of the game.  My  quadrants are the actual gameplay experience with the UL being the Player.   

    Good break down and I do agree with it. Keep in mind for your future plans that game making is a collective process.  It's not just one or two artists creating a game.  As bgilman states, it consists of artists, game designers, programmers, producers, directors, marketing, etc.. It's a huge task, so I would recommend in your studies to explore various approaches to  leadership and communication,  so that you could best harness that collective into creating the game you want. 

     

    as an aside.. is it quadrivium or quadrivia? I know quadrivia is plural, but still confused about how or when to use it....

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  •  10-09-2007, 4:00 PM 29712 in reply to 29710

    Re: Integral Video Games: Reloaded

    Well, as a general update, my most staunch ILP practice, which included two weeks of intensive 3-body workout and a daily regimen of vita-boosted Jamba Juice, has finally yielded some demonstrable and quantifiable results.

    I beat Halo 3 in "Heroic" mode.

    Am i the first Integralite to do so?

    Any of y'all have an Xbox 360?  Look up my gamer tag if you do--it's "dj rekluse"

    And prepare to be properly pwned.*





    (* pwnage will most likely be dealt by smack-talking 5th grader living in Idaho.)


    PS: single quadrivium, multiple quadrivia.

    PPS: Anyone play BioShock yet???



    __________________________

    Corey W. deVos (dj rekluse)
    Brand Manager, Integral Naked
    Audio Manager, Integral Institute
    Managing Editor, KenWilber.com
    __________________________
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  •  10-10-2007, 8:48 AM 29744 in reply to 29712

    Re: Integral Video Games: Reloaded

    inmanagingeditor:
    Well, as a general update, my most staunch ILP practice, which included two weeks of intensive 3-body workout and a daily regimen of vita-boosted Jamba Juice, has finally yielded some demonstrable and quantifiable results.

    I beat Halo 3 in "Heroic" mode.

    Am i the first Integralite to do so?

    Any of y'all have an Xbox 360?  Look up my gamer tag if you do--it's "dj rekluse"

    And prepare to be properly pwned.*





    (* pwnage will most likely be dealt by smack-talking 5th grader living in Idaho.)


    PS: single quadrivium, multiple quadrivia.

    PPS: Anyone play BioShock yet???




    Arthur/adastra says
    Ah...it's all becoming clearer now...lol.  Corey, remember this post from September 13th, on a topic very dear to your heart?  On September 19th in a Zaadz PM, you said you hoped to "carve out enough time to more deeply contemplate your question" and get out an answer that week.  Put down the video game (and the crack pipe) and hit the keyboard.  Super Angry [8o|]  Inquiring minds (still) want to know.  Hmm [^o)]

    spiral out,
    arthur


    Upgrade to ISC!
    http://www.integralinstitute.org/public/static/multispirit.aspx
    http://pods.gaia.com/ii
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  •  10-10-2007, 2:06 PM 29769 in reply to 29710

    Re: Integral Video Games: Reloaded

    funkglorious:

    ^

    yeah, that is the quadrivium for games as an artform.  With the UL being the creator/creation process of the game.  My  quadrants are the actual gameplay experience with the UL being the Player.   

    Good break down and I do agree with it. Keep in mind for your future plans that game making is a collective process.  It's not just one or two artists creating a game.  As bgilman states, it consists of artists, game designers, programmers, producers, directors, marketing, etc.. It's a huge task, so I would recommend in your studies to explore various approaches to  leadership and communication,  so that you could best harness that collective into creating the game you want. 

     

    as an aside.. is it quadrivium or quadrivia? I know quadrivia is plural, but still confused about how or when to use it....

    So, your breakdown was quadrants, mine was quadrivia, that makes sense.  And I do realize that video games are an incredibly collaborative medium, but so is film, really, especially when you get into the world of television.  I know Lost, for example, is pretty intensely collaborative in the way they write it, and just in the process of creating the show in general, but nevertheless there are a few core writers and producers that are responsible for the overall direction the show is going, or it wouldn't make any sense and it wouldn't have nearly as much meaning and depth.  I think that one problem most video games have to day is that they don't often have much of a "direction" as far as where the art is going.  A medium can be massivly collaborative and at the same time have a very small group of leading storytellers who decide where a specific work is going.

    I just played Heavenly Sword recently, which made some pretty powerful statements, not the least of which was a general comment on a repression of feminine typology within specific societies, made to an audience of "gamers" that, let's face it, tends to have a higher percentage of men.  I don't think it was integral though, it seemed to me to have a mostly Green center of gravity.  I think it's main problem was that it didn't really know where it was going, which goes back to what I was just saying.  It did do some amazing stuff with motion capture acting, and all the actors in it were just incredible.  The greatest thing was that in certain points, the mo-cap acting was actually interactive.  There's one scene where you're protecting one of the major characters as he walks across a bridge by picking off baddies with a bow and arrow (and you can control the arrows in slow motion by moving the controller around) and it shows a close-up of him on the side of the screen so you can actually see his reaction to what you're doing.  It was a pretty powerful moment for me.

    Corey, I really wish I could get in on the whole Halo 3 revolution, but as I said before, I can only afford to buy one system, and I haven't been convinced yet that I should jump ship from the Playstation camp.  Speaking of... the developers that got me to buy the original Playstation in the first place, Naughty Dog (makers of Crash Bandicoot) have a new game coming out next month called Uncharted, so I'm excited about that.  From the previews it really looks like everything I've always thought a video game should be.

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  •  10-10-2007, 2:29 PM 29772 in reply to 29636

    Re: Integral Video Games: Reloaded

    atman101:
    I do believe you're right on target Fangsz - you have to be ;-)  cuz Ive been wrestling the last 8 years with "master designing" a game that would facilitate growth up the spiral ladder and ultimately facilitate Big Mind and echoing into 

    morphogenetic fields - thus massaging the World Soul.(*watch out space cadet inc - not a bad pull, ehh?*)

     

    I really feel an urge to share what I've come up with so far. Mostly because it's instrumental in taking this project further, and thus joining and hooking up with other integral informed ressources/competencies - and also because I've carried this project solo for so long - that I occationally need a "reality check" in broader fora.

     

    For many reason I will continue to control my urge to share. But let me adress your question: "..what would video game development look like among those using an AQAL approach?" - and giving just small glimpses of what Ive working with.

     

    -Singleplayer or Multiplayer - it will be both depending on what kind of "quest/puzzle/task" you're on. Judging from the avatar portrait you've choosen I know you'll understand when I say, it comes pretty close to what the world today know as MMORPG (Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game).

    -In addtion to traditional interfacing gadgets like joystick and keyboard - the game is using EEG/Neuro feedback devices. Field research in this area is undergoing as we speak - and as more preminlary data has been collected - which is pretty soon, I'll send KW a thesis/dissertation - to get further refinements and distinctions added. And also hoping this will open up much needed connections with likeminded.(/hint/hint Ken - hook me up with the W brothers and lets make a geniune Matrix Online and not the derailed and wimpy stuff that Warner Bros did to that story and the intentionality behind it!)

    The above mentioned would be some major pieces of the puzzle regarding your question about "facilitating/portraying Big Mind". And again, please correct me if im wrong about my assumptions of your knowledge with mmorpg's, - wouldnt it be cool if your elvish avatar got its actual powers (mana and potens of magic used) from your actual compentence in reaching "higher states of mind"? But again, the more you get that kind of gaming powers (reflecting your actual altitudes witin relevant streams of consciousness and the abillity to access higher states of consciousness) the less you will be occupied with "descending into lower realms where the meanest motherf..... rules the game - and where that kind of "gaming power" would make any sense in the first place. But there would/could be quests given to you, reflecting tasks/issues you personally needed to adress or just tasks needed to be done for the sake of the entire spiral.

    -Loose "structural guides for narratives": No need to say that the narratives will be governed by "high altitude designed moral compasses".

    As you progress though quests, the game will level by level more and more cross over to "irl" thus shifting from AI interaction to human-human interaction and quests will be assigned by "irl" wisdom councils.....that ought to do it... for now.

     

    Anyway - I see a lot of lesser ambitious gaming development being needed, and my research has already "spinned off" some interesting applications (stressmanagment, to take one lucrative example - yeah, the project needs funding)- but as always crystal clear pointed out by KW, the prime directive is the health of the entire spiral, not preferential treatment for any one level....even if every society on earth were established fully at second tier, nonetheless every infant born in every society still has to start at level 1....and none of them can be demeaned without grave consequenses to self and society.

     

    So that subject is more than worth discussing - but we - and I say mostly that to myself..stop talking...walk the talk...the world badly needs integral informed artifacts and especially within video gaming which already have won the hearts and minds of most amber-redish young climbers of the spiral in the northern western hemisphere. I dare not depend on or wait for Microsoft, Sony, Vivendi Universal - to get into the program, take care of and AQALize the intentions behind game development.

     

    Thanks for "reloading" Fangsz

     

    Okay, so I'm going to try to discuss some of the things you bring up with this game idea.  First, let me say that I definitely think using something like Spiral Dynamics in an online game is a good idea.  Honestly, I think every online game, at some point in the future, should use some kind of developmental system, and if it gets established as a norm that could happen, because the norms are always followed even among those who don't understand them.  The first time I heard about Spiral Dynamics was in an essay Ken Wilber wrote about a Yellow-level global government, and my first thought actually was "this would make a fantastic MMO".  A few things to consider though:

    No video game can claim to be an accurate simulation of the world, I doubt that we'll ever have the technology to do that, and even if we did, what would be the point?  We've already got the real world.  So it's important to note that however relevant you make game development to actual personal development, you're never going to have game development actually equate with personal development, but it could definitely give a lot of people a much-needed push.  Especially if hightened States are involved.  The idea of using EEG/Neurofeedback is a very intriguing one.  Deepak Chopra has done something to that effect with a game called Wild Devine using biofeedback (what's the relation there to EEG/Neurofeedback, is it similar?) for the player to control what's happening.  However, it's inherently limited because it uses only biofeedback, without any more solid form of interaction that could lead directly to narrative and asthetic complexity, and because I don't think it's really even much of a video game.  It was definitely an interesting experiment, though.  I think you have the right idea with using EEG/Neurofeedback in addition to more traditional methods of player control.  There's a certain visceral thrill a controller gives that just can't be beat, even, or perhaps especially, when you're talking about hightened States.  One could add that kind of technology in a similar way that Nintendo and Sony have added motion control to their latest systems (I prefer the Sony example because they haven't completely changed around the way they do things based on a single control mechanic).

    I'd also like to point out that eventually there may be two or more specific types of video games that develop, almost as seperate mediums in and of themselves, much like film has led to both movies and television.  One type would be self-contained, whether multiplayer, single-player, or both, where the developers can say, "this is the game experience, this is what we want to convey to the players".  This, today, would be anything from Halo to Heavenly Sword.  The second type would be something more akin to an MMORPG, where the art continues to change and grow over time, where the players have more room to influence the direction of the art, storytelling, and interaction.  One could say that the second type is more collectivist, but I don't think that would necissarily the case, as the quadrivia it uses most would (or if it uses all four) would ultimately depend on the actual content of the art.

    You also mentioned Matrix Online, which I'd like to discuss sometime, because I still play it semi-frequently.  While it is inherently limited because, for all its ambition, it tends to rely too much on pre-established systems for MMORPGs, what it actually does beneath that surface is pretty profound, if you can find it.

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  •  10-10-2007, 4:50 PM 29778 in reply to 29769

    Re: Integral Video Games: Reloaded

    Fangsz:
    I think that one problem most video games have to day is that they don't often have much of a "direction" as far as where the art is going.  A medium can be massivly collaborative and at the same time have a very small group of leading storytellers who decide where a specific work is going.

    Yeah games aren't the only collaborative medium, but believe me you, they are a beast compared to film and TV, especially in medium to large companies.  But you're on the right direction, especially if you approach your education with an AQAL model.. I expect big things from you!  As for me, I'm ready to move on from that industry, was good, but such a rollercoaster ride!

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