Multiplex: What's New | Site Map | Community | News My Multiplex Account | Sign In 
in Search

Integral Parenting Thread!

Last post 04-11-2007, 11:13 PM by miriam. 161 replies.
Page 10 of 11 (162 items)   « First ... < Previous 7 8 9 10 11 Next >
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  •  08-18-2006, 8:56 PM 4657 in reply to 4618

    Re: Issues

    Just a few thoughts for now so they don't get lost too far down the line...

    I imagine that parenting does indeed feel like it's the most judged job on the planet! I believe that this is probably because children are a, very visible and undeniable, external representation of their parents very existence. Parents cannot escape the fact that their children's (very independent!) lives are immediate reflections on their lives. That's a lot of pressure, and it pretty much never ends for the rest of the parent's lives!

    The only thing I see for getting past that feeling of being judged is to practice Buddhist nonattachment. I don't know where nonattachment falls into Integral practice, but I imagine that it's highly recommended. (The Big Mind process seems to sort of teaching nonattachment.) And if there's something better, I'd love to know about it :-) (Though Byron Katie's very simple inquiry process has a similar outcome, and may be more accessible to those who aren't in second tier.)

    Secondly, I'd like to echo the Integral Mantra, which Cori mentioned, of the Prime Directive. The ultimate goal of the Integral Way is to work for the health of the entire spiral - the greatest depth and the greatest span. I'm still trying to understand exactly what KW means by depth and span here, but to me the purpose of the Prime Directive is to encourage others to explore themselves (Upper quadrants) and their world (Lower quadrants) in a way that gives them healthy, positive development (levels). I, myself, believe that that means that we should focus on giving kids every opportunity to experience as much of the world as we can, and try to guide them towards experiences that help them develop the healthy elements of each level. I also think that it's important to remember that each holon (kid) has a very natural inclination to move up the spiral, and that all we, as adult guides, really need to do is to make sure not to get in their way :-) This may be another way for parents who feel overwhelmed and judged to get past those feelings - how about a new Public Service campaign that says something like "Parenting Skill #1: Kids know how to grow up healthy, you just have to let them."? (Ok, it's not that catchy, but then, that's why I don't have a job in the ad industry!)

    [Edited to add...] Or maybe "Parents: Kids want to be healthy, you just have to show them where the healthy stuff is."

    (Oh, and Hi, Tim!)

    Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
    Turtle
    • Post Points: 35
    • Report abuse
  •  08-18-2006, 9:12 PM 4660 in reply to 4654

    • imom is not online. Last active: 10-09-2006, 1:13 PM imom
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on 06-19-2006
    • Posts 15
    • Points 375

    Re: Issues

    Tim ~

    We have 2 daughters, 5 & 9.  I really relate to what you say about how they (we) all effect eachother.  My daughters are a force unto themselves. Their relationship is its own entity, and I marvel at it.  I never had a sister, and watch them together is awe inspiring to me. With 4 you must have tales to tell!

    I like what you say about healthy surrender.

     

    Tim Said:

     I think the key ingredient is that I am surrendering to Love, even if I would not necessarily know it.

    I feel like one of my main goals these days is to surrender as love. I've become accutely aware lately of the degree to which I'm able to open fully as love and offer my deepest gifts ~ or converesly, how I withhold in closure. The cringe! Do you know what I mean?

    Robin Said:

    I was afraid that my speaking so personally was inappropriate. But to me parenting is mixed up with shadow issues and multi-generational stuff. I just don't know how to examine my parenting issues honestly without being personal.

    I love your perspectives so much, Robin! Your posts are incredibly deep and insightful, and I cherish your personal expressions. I don't know why you've felt that you were being inappropriate, but let me say I for one find your posts very helpful.  Also, I'm honored to be able to read your words as you journey through parenting.

    Robin Said:

    But for me, parenting is personal-- not theoretical.

    I dare say there is room on an Integral Parenting thread for both!  Also, I respectfully offer that, although what you most value about this space right now may be in the sharing of the personal, you probably wouldn't be here if you didn't also value integral theory.  A judicious blend of both is not only appropriate but, well, integral! :)

     

     As for those flesh and blood daughters - I've got a couple of those myself!  And though you and I have different circumstances as parents, we both agree that  parenting is worthy of our best efforts. 

    I applaud your transparency, your courage and your unflappable love for your daughter which shines through your words and serves us all.

    Thanks All ~

    Cori 

     

     

     

    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  08-18-2006, 9:32 PM 4666 in reply to 4657

    Re: Issues

    Turtle Says

    "Or maybe "Parents: Kids want to be healthy, you just have to show them where the healthy stuff is."

    Smile [:)]

    By God turtle, I think you nailed it on the head.  What a perfect expresion of nondual parenting. This is the type of 2nd tier parenting slogan that makes a lot of sense to me.  You include the idea of children knowing internally and naturally what is right "recaptured goodness" and the fact that children need to be directed and taught and disciplined and steered towards healthy growth and development "growth to goodness"

    When I think about those two models, it just seems that one can't be exclusively true while the other is totally false, and being in an integral community, that's not really surprising.

    But really, on the personal side: Tonight my 3 and 2 month year old son gave up his pacifier.  He only used it at bedtime and naptime, never during the day. But tonight I had to give him a "push" encourage him and let him know that he was strong enough to sleep without it. And he actually said this morning, that 'today I'm gonna sleep without my pacie, I'm a big boy' So here he is asserting his agentic self and making an important decision in his young life. But when it came down to it tonight, he was a little scared and nervous and wanted to back out of the whole deal. But with some encouragement from his mom and I he finally laid down in his bed and went to sleep and he will be SO proud of himself tommorow when he wakes up.

    So, Brandon (the kids) often know internally that its time to grow up, or do what's right, even though its hard, but when it comes down to having the character or will or self discipline to actually carry it through, they often need the help, guidance, discipline of their parent to make it happen. 

    Another point about agency/communion is how those drives flow throughout the day living life with your child. At some points in the day my son and I will be just hugging each other or totally engaged in an intense form of imaginative play, that is in some ways transcendent of our individuality and we sort of melt into a father/ son communion.  At other times of the day he willfully pulls away from me and consciouly asserts his independence and does or says something provocative just to be seperate and strong and himself (agency). 

    So we need to watch that our parenting doesn't become too hard (agentic) or too soft (communion) or I think our children will develop unhealthy boundry issues in their own relationships and friendships as adults.

    Later Y'all!Cool [H]

    Benji Dog [&]

    "Should it matter that my mind won't fit back in my head" -S. Davis
    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  08-19-2006, 7:27 AM 4691 in reply to 4611

    Re: Issues

    lajla:
    To Gene's above point, I'd add "often" before "chameleon-like".  Being able to predict consequences of a certain action (e.g., an 18mo./2 year old: "if I hit Mommy, I have to sit down for awhile") is also important - perhaps even vital at certain stages.

    i do this with the intent of cause-and-effect-consequences when the child is old enough to be self-aware and can understand a bit of cause and effect. this is blue training and it works best when the child has at least reached red self-consciousness and can tell the difference between right and wrong. i use "time out" at 2yrs old as a calm down opportunity.

    what i did when my 2 yr old hit me is act hurt. i want him to see what his actions do and learn to regulate himself and to deal with his morality, whatever it is.  he doesn't like to hurt his mom or dad and he can feel a kind of regret for hurting. so long as home life is otherwise calm, safe, and on an even keel emotionally this is enough for him to learn to control himself with regard to hitting.

     

    later,

    gene

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  08-19-2006, 7:55 AM 4696 in reply to 4657

    Re: Issues

    randomturtle:
    I, myself, believe that that means that we should focus on giving kids every opportunity to experience as much of the world as we can, and try to guide them towards experiences that help them develop the healthy elements of each level. I also think that it's important to remember that each holon (kid) has a very natural inclination to move up the spiral, and that all we, as adult guides, really need to do is to make sure not to get in their way :-) This may be another way for parents who feel overwhelmed and judged to get past those feelings - how about a new Public Service campaign that says something like "Parenting Skill #1: Kids know how to grow up healthy, you just have to let them."?

    i fully agree with this, but for some parents it might sound like not enough agency and the "green permissiveness" (pathological community) alarms are activated.  in a lot of ways the words we use activate signifieds in others minds that don't match up with the signified of the writer.  i recognize that there is nothing in your paragraph that says discipline is unimportant.

    later,

    gene

    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  08-19-2006, 10:01 AM 4719 in reply to 4691

    • lajla is not online. Last active: 03-12-2007, 2:56 PM lajla
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 06-19-2006
    • Posts 27
    • Points 360

    Re: Issues

    Whatever, I was just using the "sit, hit" thing as a non-specific example, wanting to make sure via an illustration that people got what I meant about predicting consequences.  But actually, now you mention it, my two year old sure had  reached "red self-consciousness".  (And right there is an instance of parental "chameoleon-ness" meeting "predictability".  Each kid is different and manifests different stages in different lines at different times.)

    I just read many of the past month's posts yesterday, so I'm way behind y'all.  Hope no one minds if I chime in on Gene's questions, specifically breast-feeding, though the thread has moved on.  Just a quick comment: Practically, a lot of people don't breastfeed and that's OK.  Like Tim said, most in our general age-group were bottlefed and we have plenty of bright, relatively loving and stable peers.  No one seems to have suffered badly from lack of nursing.  From a theoretical (;-), Robin!) AQAL space, though, looking at the plethora of recent and ongoing research, a good case could be made that for "optimal" healthy development in the UL and UR for infants - actually unspecified long-term development (e.g., - one study I just read about determined that pre-teens who had been breastfed as infants dealt better with stress than their non-breastfed peers: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14154841/ - Not that this study might not be questionable, but all such research taken together.) - breastfeeding is a great thing.
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  08-19-2006, 11:22 AM 4728 in reply to 4719

    • imom is not online. Last active: 10-09-2006, 1:13 PM imom
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on 06-19-2006
    • Posts 15
    • Points 375

    Re: Issues

    Lajla wrote:

    breastfeeding is a great thing.

    I'm really glad you bumped this topic up.

    Firstly, I think that birth, and infancy need to be included more in the integral model - certainly in an integral parenting model.

    IMO, breastfeeding is extremely beneficial for a myriad of reasons that go far beyond nourishment.

    Here's an article I wrote for Mothering Magazine called The Science of Mother Love. (talk about a magazine that's not afraid to put breastfeeding women on the cover! :O )

    ~Cori


     

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  08-19-2006, 2:54 PM 4740 in reply to 4654

    Re: Issues

    Hi Robin.

     

    for me, parenting is personal-- not theoretical. I have a real live flesh and blood daughter and what's more important than how I raise her? It's not a theory for me. It's tomorrow morning.

     

    I think you bring up the single most important thing –which ultimately translates into the reality of the 2nd person relationship.

     

    I think we can illuminate a lot by using the very simple 1st, 2nd and 3rd person model.

     

    Like so many things, or almost literally everything these days, parenting tends to get looked at only in the 1st and 3rd person and not even completely at that.

     

    For starters, there is a major tendency to emphasize the child’s first person view only (and extremely partially at that-even if it’s correct). While this is necessary, even if it’s correct and not partial, it is a vastly incomplete picture. What has fallen to much way by the wayside in any sort of “theoretical” look at parenting is the 1st person view of the parent. (And there are a lot of reasons for this too. In fact, I'm not even sure if it's too much "by the wayside" so much as just not yet completely and fully valued by all of the lower stages. ex. blue tends toward the sacrifice of the 1st person -which includes both parent and child; my focus is primarily on "you." And that's traditional parenting.)

     

    While we might get a more complete picture by integrating the 3rd person (objective) view, with an attempt at the complete and correct 1st person view of both child and parent, that is still missing the absolute most important aspect of the entire overall picture. And that is the intersubjective, human, 2nd person relationship that is in the end, safe to say, the most important reality.

     

    I mean, what is parenting? You are going to hear a lot of answers to that question that are all about 1st and 3rd person perspectives. “Raise healthy children.” “Get them off to college.” “Be sure they don’t hate me” “Make sure she does not get pregnant.” “Set them up for the greatest success.” “Give them all they need to grow.” “Provide a safe environment.” “Be sure he makes the honor roll.” “Be sure they don’t get taken away.” “Find them the best schools and teachers.” etc. etc. etc.

     

    NONE of those say anything about “we.” None of those say anything about how “You” and “I” love “we.” And how we get to that. Much less how we get to that.

     

    All for now.


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  08-19-2006, 6:13 PM 4746 in reply to 4728

    Re: Issues

    imom:

    IMO, breastfeeding is extremely beneficial for a myriad of reasons that go far beyond nourishment.

    Here's an article I wrote for Mothering Magazine called The Science of Mother Love. (talk about a magazine that's not afraid to put breastfeeding women on the cover! :O )

    great article!  i love the articles in Mothering magazine.  a couple of decades ago i saw a film about indian mothers who habitually massage their infants. there was not much scientific information provided---just that these new parents were taught by their parents that it makes for healthier babies. i didn't need any explanations.  what i saw changed my dna and it was many years later that i finally got a chance to practice it. what a joy it was.

    the american academy of pediatrics now recommends breastfeeding for at least one year, two is even better.   those empiricist reductionists are so far behind the wisdom traditions!

     

    later,

    gene

    • Post Points: 35
    • Report abuse
  •  08-20-2006, 7:46 AM 4766 in reply to 4746

    Re: Issues

    Geez, I have 9,352 specific things I gotta do today, and I just can't resist commenting here!

    1.  When I gave birth to Erica almost 27 years ago, the model at my jospital was for me to do sit-ups during delivery for the comfort of the doc, and to be restrained, as well.  NO WAY was I going to do that!  I demanded, and got, a sitting position for delivery, nursed on the table, and would have walked back to my room if they'd let me.  The BLUE model of chuildbirth might still persist for all I know.  Parents??? comments on this??

    2.   I also nursed her until she was past 3 (shockIck! [+o(] ) due to he severe allergies and our combined history of asthma.  I got mocked pretty badly, but refused to let nature go awry just to fit in with the other moms.  When she had her tonsils out at 5, the Dr. told me he was surprised she hadn't been crippled by her allergies and asthma; and that nursing was the key to maintaining her health, an UR concern..  So I didn't nurse to be cool, conformist, avante guarde, but as a very practical response to a very real situation. 

    BUT---I also had to return to work when she was 11 mos. old, and I was also responding to the LL/UL needs of us both to continue that intimate contact.  Multiple layers of responses to multiple needs.  The complexity of parenting.

    3.  I have been doing some further experimenting that I thought I'd share here.  Since she knows AQAL, and is schooled in paradoxes, I now multicast my responses to her questions or reactions to her.  I'll tell her that: from an Amber perspective, my answer is.....from Orange,......from Green,......and from 2nd tier.........I need to let her know that all these concerns exist, are true but partial, except for 2nd tier, and that she might resonate more to one response than another, which is just fine.  I don't know if that sounds too complex, but think about it for the older child, maybe Robin's.  let's play here:

    Robin's daughter wants to go play at a friend's house where Robin has concerns (this actually happened).  So Robin could say, 1) no one else in your class walks down there alone so I don't think it's a good idea for you to be the only one, and it's been our rule that you don't walk aloine there either [Amber]; 2) you could take a taxi there instead [Orange] 3) I'll take you and we'll go together since I love being with you and would miss the afternoon with you [Green??] 4) all of the above are valid responses, so use them all.  Then her daughter gets heard on one or more levels.  And don't we do this naturally anyhow ?

    Just a thought.....now back to the 9,352 things still sitting here to be done....

    Lynne

    • Post Points: 65
    • Report abuse
  •  08-20-2006, 8:11 AM 4769 in reply to 4746

    • lajla is not online. Last active: 03-12-2007, 2:56 PM lajla
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 06-19-2006
    • Posts 27
    • Points 360

    Re: Issues

    the american academy of pediatrics now recommends breastfeeding for at least one year, two is even better.   those empiricist reductionists are so far behind the wisdom traditions!

    Thank Goodness, they're catching up, huh? ;-)  Seriously, this kind of info is useful for the orange everywhere.


    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  08-20-2006, 8:52 AM 4777 in reply to 4766

    Re: Issues

    integrallynne:

    So I didn't nurse to be cool, conformist, avante guarde, but as a very practical response to a very real situation. 

     Multiple layers of responses to multiple needs.  The complexity of parenting.

    Absolutely the best answer. I could go through that same 1,2,3 up and down, side to side, literlly all quad, for all of our decisions in all of those same areas. There can be no "It must be like this . . ." Also remember often in particular the 2nd person child/parent relationship, that has to have it's own rules as well. How much would we miss that could help our own particular situation?

    In fact, I think, barring pathology or shadows, most people already do this anyway -and that is why I am no fan of cultural guilt or trickery from any particular meme. Barring shadows and pathology, people, even the most unsophisticated, do know how to raise their children, especially if all the right information is available.

    And I really thank you for an example of breastfeeding to the "older" age and why. It was ultimately a question of health in the UR that took priority or hierachy over all the others. The same could occur in all the other quads. It's the child's UL and LL that I usually worry about in America if someone would want to go the all-out "screw culture and society" route as i.e. that might not be healthy in those quads . . . Very interesting.Smile [:)]


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  08-20-2006, 9:28 AM 4779 in reply to 4766

    Re: Issues

    integrallynne:

    3.  I have been doing some further experimenting that I thought I'd share here.  Since she knows AQAL, and is schooled in paradoxes, I now multicast my responses to her questions or reactions to her.  I'll tell her that: from an Amber perspective, my answer is.....from Orange,......from Green,......and from 2nd tier.........I need to let her know that all these concerns exist, are true but partial, except for 2nd tier, and that she might resonate more to one response than another, which is just fine.  I don't know if that sounds too complex, but think about it for the older child, maybe Robin's. 

    How does this seem to work -i.e. for the child? My experience and instincts tell me it would not be all tht pratical until at least late conop or early formop. And you'd still have to be creative. None the less, I do think we have a unique task of plating "confusing seeds" -things that you don't really understand now, but will fill your mind with all sorts of stange questions until the light dawns later.

    Also, I don't know about anyone else, but one of my greatest weaknesses is "talking over thier heads."

    I have always had a real problem with this in complex situations, and it doesn't really help. I think you can fool yourself with this in a classroom and I did for many years -since they just look up and nod their heads, but not at home with your own kids who will respond honestly and unflatteringly and say "I don't get it."

    In fact, I think that is a real "warning" or caution for . . .anybody. They can easily make you think they understand . . . but the don't.

    Oh and by the way, this sort of "consider all the levels" thinking can come in really handy, or give perfect living example -when you have a large family. Where you already have multiple levels interacting, right before everybody's eyes.

    (there also emerges a sort of reversed hierachy-the samllest has a certain "first priority" over everybody's needs in certain situations -fundamentally moving up the spiral or with the hierarchy of needs, but reversed to the "oldest" or "highest" which is usually me.)


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  08-20-2006, 11:53 AM 4792 in reply to 4766

    Re: Issues

    integrallynne:

    1.  When I gave birth to Erica almost 27 years ago, the model at my jospital was for me to do sit-ups during delivery for the comfort of the doc, and to be restrained, as well.  NO WAY was I going to do that!  I demanded, and got, a sitting position for delivery, nursed on the table, and would have walked back to my room if they'd let me.  The BLUE model of chuildbirth might still persist for all I know.  Parents??? comments on this??

    my wife and i participated in the bradley method coached childbirth. i highly highly recommend the two books that pertain to that method (they take a couple of swipes at lamaze--for good reason). dr. bradley was instrumental in allowing fathers into the birthing room with the mother. he worked during the days when fathers waited outside and mothers went through it without them. one of his "heroes" was the college student who handcuffed himself to his wife's hospital bed because he refused to let her go it alone. when my wife was having her contractions in the hospital room i helped her by using the specific massage techniques that bradley taught. the nurse hadn't seen it before, she tried to help by suggesting some lamaze breathing techniques. anyhow, after it was over two nurses told us that they had never seen such teamwork between mom and dad for a birth, one had tears in her eyes.  the stages of childbirth that bradley described occurred like clockwork, particularly the moment when my wife started to doubt that she could go through with it.  one thing about bradley that appealed to me was his description of how birth is experienced by females of other species and other cultures. this is kind of like the explanation in Mothering magazine comparing american attitudes toward co-sleeping and breastfeeding, etc.  understanding how other cultures (and species!) go through this experience  helps to understand what is more natural (less obfuscation by orange level male theorizing).

    anyhow, that might sound like an ideal experience but i didn't mention the intense fear of loss of control that i felt when we first got to the hospital. way before that, the gynecologist gave us a form to fill out where we could choose certain birth room options---did my wife want to be on her back, did we want low lighting, etc. it seemed like they were very open to any sort of birthing procedure the couple preferred.  the actual experience was liked being placed on an assembly line where different assembly line mechanics had narrow specific responsibilities for us. so any kind of experience that we preferred happened only because we insisted on it. what the hell is that all about where a couple has to battle with mechanized assembly line technicians?!?  our doctor did tell us beforehand that he didn't care what position we preferred, "you could be on all fours if that's what you want".  the hospital we used had a one room hotel-like set up which was great.  there were chairs and couches for guests, a tv, and of course the birth bed which was mechanically adjustable for all sorts of angles, with medical electronic equipment hanging around.

    now that i think about it, maybe we experienced integralites can offer some best practices to those who are going through their first birth or their first integral birth. i'd recommend the bradley method and also to consider storing cord blood.

    later,

    gene

     

    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  08-20-2006, 5:05 PM 4809 in reply to 4766

    Re: Issues

    integrallynne:

    1.  When I gave birth to Erica almost 27 years ago, the model at my jospital was for me to do sit-ups during delivery for the comfort of the doc, and to be restrained, as well.  NO WAY was I going to do that!  I demanded, and got, a sitting position for delivery, nursed on the table, and would have walked back to my room if they'd let me.  The BLUE model of chuildbirth might still persist for all I know.  Parents??? comments on this??

    We have had four children in three different states and four different hospitals -once with a midwife, once with a more "modernity" style doctor, and twice with so far our favorite, a really nice 21st century OBGYN.

    The care varies greatly and, overall, progresses rapidly -even in the last nine years. So 27 years ago is really dark ages compared to today, unless you end up at the wrong place with the wrong caregiver. But also the primary caregiver (doctor, midwife) is only a part, the staff and system at each hospital, at least, make a HUGE difference -if you use a hospital. (And we've done all kinds of things too -but nearly always is the woman allowed to make the choice or at least given a lot of options -again, depending on the care.) So, I would say again, shop around, ask around, educate yourself and make your best pesronal choices. Did they even allow the man in 27 years ago? If so, did have to be with those dippy blue gowns and such? Not so today -anywhere that I know of.


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
Page 10 of 11 (162 items)   « First ... < Previous 7 8 9 10 11 Next >
View as RSS news feed in XML
 © Integral Institute, 2006. all rights reserved - powered by enlight™ email this page del.icio.us | terms of service | privacy policy | suggestion box | help