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Banish Helene to 7th Circle for Spamming, Please

Last post 12-14-2006, 11:53 PM by rholden. 504 replies.
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  •  09-02-2006, 12:23 PM 6538 in reply to 6495

    • JaneMc is not online. Last active: 09-30-2008, 5:33 PM JaneMc
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    Re: Banish Helene to 7th Circle for Spamming, Please

    Mike,

    I like your ideas as well.I have watched meetings get sabbotaged by what I considered to be unconscious personal agendas--and some others, just simply for lack of direction and facillitation......the sobering boomeritis greens have been frustrated on more than one occassion by the endless bogging down from processing irrelevant, off topic, or personal material.  And they have come up with some handy solutions.  

    In some workshops they established 'wailing walls' where people who needed to unload their grief could be respectfully escorted to a private room while others got down to the business at hand. 

    Also, the concept of the 'parking lot' has been developed where when something(off topic, perhaps) comes up, possibly important(or not) that may need to be attended to(or not) but the time and energy for attention is not available,  that 'something' gets put in the parking lot. Perhaps, off-topic posts could be parked like this, in plain view, as an addendeum or a link to any thread...... and even in such a way that parking lot items could start their own thread if the time and energy was forthcoming, and the poster felt so motivated..

    It would seem reasonable that the thread starter might be given the power to park any posts in the parking lot, in such away as to protect the flow of conversation. Also,  maybe a consortium of a certain number of posters could vote to have a post parked in the Lot as well.  It is interesting, the self moderation that would likely occur, since if anything is being parked not because of its irrelevance, but because of the shadow issues(control freak Nazi tendencies, for instance) of the thread starter intoxicated by their new parkinglot power,  the rest of the posters invested in that thread would be responsible for  shedding  light on those shadows  thereby holding the thread starter to account.......

    this may not be very hard from a soft ware perspective.....creating a parking lot, I mean. It is easy enough in meeting.

    Jane


    The fabric of my life is the cloth with which it is my responsibility to polish the lens of my own perception
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  •  09-02-2006, 3:15 PM 6560 in reply to 6538

    • mroark is not online. Last active: May 24, 2008, 5:16 AM mroark
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    Re: Banish Helene to 7th Circle for Spamming, Please

    Thanks for the feedback Liz, Bruce and Jane.

     

    Liz, I’d love to have lunch however it appears that you reside in a civilized country while I am rollin down here in the 305 at present.  If what I am suggesting became too much of a burden from the II staff perspective, they could always delegate the decision responsibility back to a few trusted Forum people.

     

    Bruce, I like the idea of the thread starter having extra weight, maybe two votes instead of one.

     

    Jane, yes to all but I don’t think anyone would actually trip out on the control issue, but just the same that’s why I thought it’d have to be more than one person (say, three) to send a post to the parking lot.

     

    Regarding the implementation, I believe the real difficulty would lie with getting the website to respond automatically.  I don’t build websites, but from what I know it seems this could be technologically implemented (and I’ll just bet there is some II egghead that could do it in their sleep).

     

    After setting up the website, I don’t believe that this solution would involve much effort on the behalf of the II staff, inasmuch as the cases that would get kicked up to them would probably be few and far between.

     

    I also don’t think this approach would squelch any degree of sincere freedom of expression; just provide a form of Spam-control.

     

    Anyway, just trying to bring the theory down to a granular, operational level so we hopefully don’t have to spend more time than is necessary on the subject.

     

    Warm regards, Mike
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  •  09-03-2006, 1:57 AM 6601 in reply to 6560

    Re: Banish Helene to 7th Circle for Spamming, Please

    Hi Mike,

    I like your suggestion as well, and it certainly is technically feasible. The software, however, is not written by I-I people, but is Community Server software. It is possible to customize the website, but I don't know to what extent. I doubt that I-I has access to the full source code.

    Interestingly, the software does have some spamming control options out of the box, although they may not be great solutions for the I-I forums.

    If manpower is the problem here, I might be willing to lend a hand on the technical side of things.

    Peter
    "All nations should be like Amsterdam" -- Ken Wilber
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  •  09-03-2006, 3:52 AM 6605 in reply to 6497

    Re: Banish Helene to 7th Circle for Spamming, Please

    adastra:
    figure/ground reversal: maybe we should stop spamming Helene's playground with all this serious and/or coherent and/or on-topic and/or properly placed shit we've been posting everywhere.  Goes against the whole zeitgeist thingie.


    Sure!

    For those that are feeling more conventional: try to consistently instruct your credit card company to transfer your money back (but don't cancel your subscription!!). That wouldn't really bother anyone. I'm pretty sure you won't get banned for it, since nobody wants to inhibit your growth, right? Wink [;)]

    Oh, how evil we are...

    Peter

    "All nations should be like Amsterdam" -- Ken Wilber
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  •  09-03-2006, 6:58 AM 6609 in reply to 6605

    Re: Banish Helene to 7th Circle for Spamming, Please

    ruthless/evil/wicked/diabolic

    if the shoe fits?...ahwellAngry [:@]

    one more bug and i'm sooo atta here! praise n' worship gets boringZip it! [:#]

    hear ye! hear ye! i'm not immune to post-scribbling, from time to time - without pointing to any specific post..../s .... heard first, 'blowing on the ether-wind' , in-code-like 'word-message', which i may even do it with tongue firmly stuck in me' cheek.

    h 

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  •  09-04-2006, 7:38 AM 6697 in reply to 6609

    Re: Banish Helene to 7th Circle for Spamming, Please

    Fairyfaye, you did say somewhere on this thread-topic (?) you lock-out your posts so no one can dump their "sh.." on them?... truth be known it is draining having that kind of 'watch your tongue lil' grrrl, or else monky will jump on your  back and then you'll see who gots the power' energy going on.

    i didn't grow up in a 'i will humiliate you into submission and obidience' environment....my parents didn't follow socities rules/roles n' values , or to put it more aptly, we just lived  and if a 'situation' came up, it was just that. we felt sad or glad, whathave you, we learned and lived.

    so won't you come out and word-play anyway? have nothing to lose at this point, right?

     

     

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  •  09-04-2006, 8:43 AM 6703 in reply to 6560

    Re: Banish Helene to 7th Circle for Spamming, Please

    You know, folks, I could swear that this thread has arrived at something close to a consensus....Confused [*-)]  Which is pretty remarkable.  I may be wrong about this, but it does seem that there are few if any voices saying that spamming isn't a problem and that nothing needs to be done about it, even if it doesn't trouble them personally.

    Yes, there are differences in attitude towards dear Helene, but the principle itself seems to be generally accepted. And personally, despite the thread title, I don't see the issue as about her in particular - we've had spammers before, right?  No reason why we won't have them again.  What I particularly like about Mike's idea is that it applies to anyone:  who hasn't gone off-topic in a thread?  If we're all prepared to take our medicine if we merit it, then noone is being victimised.

    Getting this far is quite an advance for us.  Anyone who remembers a previous thread on this subject a year or so back will recall that it turned into a fruitless quarrel.  Could it be that we're evolving as a community?  Even if the present discussion doesn't generate an actual technical change, its been worthwhile as an exercise in communal process.  

    On the subject of communal process, in the excerpts from the second volume of the Kosmos Trilogy Wilber says that there are two kinds of outlaw:  pre-laws and trans-laws:

    With regard to prelaws, holons of a lesser depth (or lesser authenticity) are a threat to the communal holon because they cannot (or do not) responsibly participate in the exchanges and interactions that are internal to the nexus-agency (or the togetherness codes) of the various "we's" that constitute the cohesion of the communal holon (a cohesion necessary for the existence and survival of both the individual and the group). In that sense, it is entirely appropriate, from the view of the communal holon, that prelaws are outlaws. They do indeed threaten the immune system or boundary of the collective holon (hence the need for therapia).

    Of course, there are relatively healthy and relatively unhealthy versions of the treatment of prelaws, where "unhealthy" means that the modes of detection of deviancy and their punishment or correction are excessive, or considerably beyond the degree required by that particular level of development of the cultural holon. Therapia, in other words, can go into overkill. Still, no known cultural holon is free of some sort of perception of outlaws and therapia; the wonder is that most forms of therapia function relatively well (when judged on a realistic, not utopian, scale).

    As for translaws, or postlaws, holons of a greater depth (or greater authenticity) are also a threat to the communal holon, although of a different order (a difference spotted by the structuralist or cultural anthropologist, rarely by the culture itself). Translaws threaten the legitimation process of any "we," but this time from above, not below—the translaw represents love resisted, not hate imprisoned. Classic translaws, treated like outlaws/prelaws, include Socrates, al Hallaj, Jesus of Nazareth, Giordano Bruno, Meister Eckhart... it's a long list.

    More mundane examples from recent history include, as briefly noted, the reception that orange center-of-gravity culture gave to the green center-of-gravity student and countercultural movements of the Sixties, a counterculture often called, appropriately enough, the "cultural creatives" (whose healthy versions ushered in civil rights, health reform, and environmental protections); and the subsequent treatment that those green countercultural movements in turn gave to the emerging integral (second-tier) center-of-gravity movements.

    http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/books/kosmos/excerptD/part4-2.cfm

    Food for thought.   Confused [*-)]

    As for you, Helene, could I add one (friendly) suggestion of my own?   Start a thread.  Any subject. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the more than two years I've been here, I don't remember you ever starting one single thread. C'mon, its so easy - just click on 'new post' - I'm totally sure that it would be popular, and think of the fun you could have letting US know when we've gone off-topic!  Big Smile [:D]

    ~ David

     

       


    'This is all the time you'll ever have'.
    ~ Dr Hannibal Lecter
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  •  09-04-2006, 9:13 AM 6705 in reply to 6703

    Re: Banish Helene to 7th Circle for Spamming, Please

    not toching that one with a 10 foot pole,  David. nope! asif i could keep up with my , 'there she goes all over the bloody plase again!' mind-set Stick out tongue [:P]

    as for starting a new thread? "are we there yet?" , in the old forum, rings a bell? asif I-I knew i was supposed to converse back and forth!

    h

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  •  09-04-2006, 12:44 PM 6724 in reply to 6705

    • MichaelD is not online. Last active: 09-09-2008, 6:34 PM MichaelD
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    Re: Banish Helene to 7th Circle for Spamming, Please

    Nice post David.  The Wilber quote was new to me.  Reminds me of some passages in Robert Pirsig's Lila, about the Zuni outlaw turned social leader...ever read that?


    Helene:

    as for starting a new thread? "are we there yet?" , in the old forum, rings a bell?

    Yeah it rings a bell Helen, did you start that one?  I just tried to look it up, but once again can't access the old forum.  I've been using the link provided by admin in the archived forum links thread:

    http://in.integralinstitute.org/forum/Default.asp

    Anyone getting access to the 1st forum?


    HeartMind.us
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  •  09-04-2006, 1:10 PM 6730 in reply to 6705

    Re: Banish Helene to 7th Circle for Spamming, Please

    Helene:

    asif I-I knew i was supposed to converse back and forth!

    Well, that's the general idea, you know.... Smile [:)] 

    But don't tell me I missed your thread, Helen!  How did it fare?  Can we revive it???  I want to converse back and forth on it with you!!

    Michael, yes, I did read Lila, years back, but memory fails me -was the Zuni a prelaw or a translaw?

    Good wishes

     

     


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  •  09-04-2006, 2:08 PM 6740 in reply to 6730

    • MichaelD is not online. Last active: 09-09-2008, 6:34 PM MichaelD
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    Re: Banish Helene to 7th Circle for Spamming, Please

    I sure am having troubles posting here these days.  Hmmm.  The "Quote" button doesn't work for me anymore...

     

    So in answer to your question David, was he a prelaw or translaw, I tried to find the exact Pirsig transcript online, but could only get a basic summary.  You can decide for yourself if he was pre or trans.  - or something else entirely... Smile [:)]

     

     

    As I recall, anthropologist wrote up the story of a Zuni cultural shift wherein a man who embodied qualities of personality that went opposite to Zuni cultural values, was delcared to be a "brujo", which translated to the anthropologist as "witch", but probably meant something more like contrarian.  He was condemned to torture and imprisonment for doing some fairly innocuous stuff – I can’t remember what his actual crimes were just now. 

     

    Here’s the way Pirsig used that tale:

     

    Static and Dynamic Quality:

     

    This is Pirsig's fundamental division of reality, after Quality itself. It is necessary to present these concepts in by discourse rather than by definition. A requisite prelude to discussing this division of quality is a story about a struggle between good and evil in the Zuni tribe:

     

    In a society that distrusts authority of any sort, Shoshan had a strong personal magnetism that singled him out as a leader in any group. In his society, that exalted moderation and humility, he was turbulent and outspoken. He also went against the tribes isolationist stance and mingled with the neighbouring white people. The Zuni tribe's only reaction to anti-social personalities such as this is to brand them a witch, which is what happened.

     

    As he was being tortured, someone sent a message to (white) government troops, who came and arrested the tribe's chief war Priest. Eventually Shoshan became Chief of this tribe, and ruled well and fairly.

     

    Who here was good and evil? Shoshan was a lone virtuous man sticking to his principles, but he was also one who ended generationally held Zuni values of moderation and humility. The outlaw became the ruler. Under Shoshan's rule, the original rulers became outlaws.

    What we witness here is a universally applicable example of a change in the values which underlie a society.

     

    The tribal frame of values that condemned Shoshan as a witch was one kind of good, which Pirsig called 'static good.' This pattern of good is the essential structure of the society itself - it is what defines it. In the static sense Shoshan was very clearly evil to oppose the appointed authorities of his tribe. If everyone did that the whole culture would collapse after thousands of years of evolution, into chaos.

     

    However, in addition to this static good, there is a 'dynamic good.' If asked what ethical principles he was following he probably couldn't tell you, he was just following some vague sense of betterness. He ultimately showed himself not to be merely an egotist. Ultimately he was no misfit. He was an integral part of the Zuni culture. He was the catalyst that helped the tribe to develop and form relations with the ruling whites. This relationship ensured diplomacy with the whites, and hence the tribe being legally guaranteed it's homeland. The isolationist approach may have ended in an open conflict which the Zuni's would have lost.

     

    When A.N. Whitehead wrote, "mankind is driven forward by dim apprehensions of things too obscure for it's existing language," he was writing about dynamic Quality. It exists at the pre-intellectual cutting edge of reality, the source of all things. The concepts of freedom of speech, press and association in western jurisprudence essentially serve to protect the operation of dynamic quality as a force of change within society.

     

    This process of dynamic quality reshaping static patterns occurs continually in our society today. In the 1960s environmentalist protesters attacked the State demanding legislation to protect the environment- a new idea at the time. This was dynamic quality in operation. However if one of these ageing hippies on his commune today were to wash a milk churn in a stream, the State would prosecute him. This is because the dynamic quality of thirty years ago has become part of the static quality of today. Thus, static quality emerges in the wake of dynamic quality.

     

    Static quality alone cannot create anything new, but life can't exist on dynamic quality alone. Static quality patterns are dead when they are exclusive, when they demand blind obedience and suppress dynamic change. But static patterns, nonetheless provide a necessary a necessary stabilising force to protect Dynamic progress from degeneration.

     

    Although dynamic quality, the quality of freedom, creates the world in which we live, static quality, the quality of order, preserves that world. Neither static nor dynamic quality can survive without the other.

     

    Thus, dynamic and static quality are permanently engaged in an evolutionary process whereby dynamic quality can throw anything up, and the static social patterns either reject the idea or latch on to it and make it part of the static pattern itself (as with the environmentalist above.)

     


    HeartMind.us
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  •  09-04-2006, 3:18 PM 6742 in reply to 6740

    Re: Banish Helene to 7th Circle for Spamming, Please

    Fascinating, Michael, I must re-read that book...

    Shoshan was definitely a translaw.  He was a catalyst for vertical change in that society, which of course necessarily resisted him and he had to undergo its somewhat severe form of therapia... That tension between static and dynamic quality is a profound alternative way of conceptualising spiral evolution, isn't it....

    Its in the infinite game that there be outlaws and that they be resisted, isn't it?   The prelaw has to be resisted and therapia administered to avoid communal fragmentation: so, strategies to deal with spamming must be devised.  The translaw also swims against the stream and offends the community even while transforming it.  

    Smile [:)] 


    'This is all the time you'll ever have'.
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  •  09-04-2006, 4:37 PM 6751 in reply to 6742

    Re: Banish Helene to 7th Circle for Spamming, Please

    access mouse-clicks to the old forum don't work for me either David. but then again, why would i want to re-visit  that wich is gone...not like i want to re-hash  anything anyways.

    h

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  •  09-04-2006, 5:33 PM 6756 in reply to 6497

    Re: Banish Helene to 7th Circle for Spamming, Please

    why even say it?

     

     

     

     

     

     


    Pretending wisdom
    a man tells a woman all
    about the eclipse
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  •  09-04-2006, 5:37 PM 6757 in reply to 6742

    • MichaelD is not online. Last active: 09-09-2008, 6:34 PM MichaelD
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    Re: Banish Helene to 7th Circle for Spamming, Please

    Yeah I definitely recommend a re-read of Lila if you get the chance David.  One thing the book drives home is that such evaluations as the Zuni guy being a dynamic translaw catalyst for vertical change as opposed to a regressive prelaw, is that such distinctions can only be made in retrospect.  While the action is taking place, there’s literally no way to make such a fine distinction.  This is because of the novelty aspect of the situation.

     

    Also, if things had gone differently for him and his culture, such as if his dealings with the whites had backfired, he would have been judged as a terrible leader who dealt his culture a deathblow.  Would he then still be considered a translaw?  He happened to represent the winning side in the bigger picture, and maybe he had no vision to match that bigger picture but happened to be the right guy in the right place.  Does that make him a translaw?

     

    As I recall SD has something like this dynamic/static quality distinction built in BTW…in terms of the three different substages within each vMeme.  Something like Entry – Consolidation – Exit?  Where entry is pure dynamic, consolidation is static, and exit is the integration?

     

    Also, this whole dynamic/static/creative thing was brilliantly elucidated by the trio of Sheldrake, McKenna and Abraham in their dialogs at Esalon which were transcribed into the book Chaos, Creativity, and Cosmic Consciousness as you may recall.

     


    HeartMind.us
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