Multiplex: What's New | Site Map | Community | News My Multiplex Account | Sign In 
in Search

The Teal Integral Revolution Begins With OBAMA

Last post 07-25-2008, 2:41 PM by innerline. 269 replies.
Page 18 of 18 (270 items)   « First ... < Previous 14 15 16 17 18
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  •  07-18-2008, 12:39 AM 63438 in reply to 63128

    Re: The Teal-Obama thread

    Thanks for that book, innerline. That's pretty interesting.

    Well, the one conspiracy that has been proven in several double blind, cross-cultural studies (or at least by some really good anecdotal evidence) is that the people with power will try to keep it. You can just about count on that. Now and then there's some freak like LBJ who decides not to run for reelection, but by and large they will hold on to it like a dog holds on to a bone. But it's not so organized; it's just what people tend to do.

    I imagine some people also view the Orange structure in the lower-right quadrant (capitalism, democracy, globalization, etc.) as some kind of conspiracy. It's organized; it's interconnected; the people in power often use it to enrich themselves. And if you feel shut out of it perhaps it can seem like a big conspiracy.

     

    mm

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  07-18-2008, 10:09 AM 63621 in reply to 63438

    Re: The Teal-Obama thread

    Hey Schalk and MM,

    MM stated "But it's not so organized; it's just what people tend to do."

    How do you know it is not so organized, mm? Is this not a huge assumption on your part.

    MM stated"And if you feel shut out of it perhaps it can seem like a big conspiracy. "

    Shut out of what, MM? What are you talking about?

     

    Schalk, This is a recent speech by Ron Paul in the house.

    Ron Paul's entire speech before the House now follows:

    Madam Speaker, I have, for the past 35 years, expressed my grave concern for the future of America . The course we have taken over the past century has threatened our liberties, security and prosperity. In spite of these long-held concerns, I have days--growing more frequent all the time--when I'm convinced the time is now upon us that some Big Events are about to occur. These fast-approaching events will not go unnoticed. They will affect all of us. They will not be limited to just some areas of our country. The world economy and political system will share in the chaos about to be unleashed.

    Though the world has long suffered from the senselessness of wars that should have been avoided, my greatest fear is that the course on which we find ourselves will bring even greater conflict and economic suffering to the innocent people of the world--unless we quickly change our ways.

    America , with her traditions of free markets and property rights, led the way toward great wealth and progress throughout the world as well as at home. Since we have lost our confidence in the principles of liberty, self reliance, hard work and frugality, and instead took on empire building, financed through inflation and debt, all this has changed. This is indeed frightening and an historic event.

    The problem we face is not new in history. Authoritarianism has been around a long time. For centuries, inflation and debt have been used by tyrants to hold power, promote aggression, and provide “bread and circuses” for the people. The notion that a country can afford “guns and butter” with no significant penalty existed even before the 1960s when it became a popular slogan. It was then, though, we were told the Vietnam War and the massive expansion of the welfare state were not problems. The seventies proved that assumption wrong.

    Today things are different from even ancient times or the 1970s. There is something to the argument that we are now a global economy. The world has more people and is more integrated due to modern technology, communications, and travel. If modern technology had been used to promote the ideas of liberty, free markets, sound money and trade, it would have ushered in a new golden age--a globalism we could accept.

    Instead, the wealth and freedom we now enjoy are shrinking and rest upon a fragile philosophic infrastructure. It is not unlike the levies and bridges in our own country that our system of war and welfare has caused us to ignore.

    I'm fearful that my concerns have been legitimate and may even be worse than I first thought. They are now at our doorstep. Time is short for making a course correction before this grand experiment in liberty goes into deep hibernation.

    There are reasons to believe this coming crisis is different and bigger than the world has ever experienced. Instead of using globalism in a positive fashion, it's been used to globalize all of the mistakes of the politicians, bureaucrats and central bankers.

    Being an unchallenged sole superpower was never accepted by us with a sense of humility and respect. Our arrogance and aggressiveness have been used to promote a world empire backed by the most powerful army of history. This type of globalist intervention creates problems for all citizens of the world and fails to contribute to the well-being of the world's populations. Just think how our personal liberties have been trashed here at home in the last decade.

    The financial crisis, still in its early stages, is apparent to everyone: gasoline prices over $4 a gallon; skyrocketing education and medical-care costs; the collapse of the housing bubble; the bursting of the NASDAQ bubble; stock markets plunging; unemployment rising; massive underemployment; excessive government debt; and unmanageable personal debt. Little doubt exists as to whether we'll get stagflation. The question that will soon be asked is: When will the stagflation become an inflationary depression?

    There are various reasons that the world economy has been globalized and the problems we face are worldwide. We cannot understand what we're facing without understanding fiat money and the long-developing dollar bubble.

    There were several stages. From the inception of the Federal Reserve System in 1913 to 1933, the Central Bank established itself as the official dollar manager. By 1933, Americans could no longer own gold, thus removing restraint on the Federal Reserve to inflate for war and welfare.

    By 1945, further restraints were removed by creating the Bretton-Woods Monetary System making the dollar the reserve currency of the world. This system lasted up until 1971. During the period between 1945 and 1971, some restraints on the Fed remained in place. Foreigners, but not Americans, could convert dollars to gold at $35 an ounce. Due to the excessive dollars being created, that system came to an end in 1971.

    It's the post Bretton-Woods system that was responsible for globalizing inflation and markets and for generating a gigantic worldwide dollar bubble. That bubble is now bursting, and we're seeing what it's like to suffer the consequences of the many previous economic errors.

    Ironically in these past 35 years, we have benefited from this very flawed system. Because the world accepted dollars as if they were gold, we only had to counterfeit more dollars, spend them overseas (indirectly encouraging our jobs to go overseas as well) and enjoy unearned prosperity. Those who took our dollars and gave us goods and services were only too anxious to loan those dollars back to us. This allowed us to export our inflation and delay the consequences we now are starting to see.

    But it was never destined to last, and now we have to pay the piper. Our huge foreign debt must be paid or liquidated. Our entitlements are coming due just as the world has become more reluctant to hold dollars. The consequence of that decision is price inflation in this country--and that's what we are witnessing today. Already price inflation overseas is even higher than here at home as a consequence of foreign central banks' willingness to monetize our debt.

    Printing dollars over long periods of time may not immediately push prices up--yet in time it always does. Now we're seeing catch-up for past inflating of the monetary supply. As bad as it is today with $4 a gallon gasoline, this is just the beginning. It's a gross distraction to hound away at “drill, drill, drill” as a solution to the dollar crisis and high gasoline prices. Its okay to let the market increase supplies and drill, but that issue is a gross distraction from the sins of deficits and Federal Reserve monetary shenanigans.

    This bubble is different and bigger for another reason. The central banks of the world secretly collude to centrally plan the world economy. I'm convinced that agreements among central banks to “monetize” U.S. debt these past 15 years have existed, although secretly and out of the reach of any oversight of anyone--especially the U.S. Congress that doesn't care, or just flat doesn't understand. As this “gift” to us comes to an end, our problems worsen. The central banks and the various governments are very powerful, but eventually the markets overwhelm when the people who get stuck holding the bag (of bad dollars) catch on and spend the dollars into the economy with emotional zeal, thus igniting inflationary fever.

    This time--since there are so many dollars and so many countries involved--the Fed has been able to “paper” over every approaching crisis for the past 15 years, especially with Alan Greenspan as Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board, which has allowed the bubble to become history's greatest.

    The mistakes made with excessive credit at artificially low rates are huge, and the market is demanding a correction. This involves excessive debt, misdirected investments, over-investments, and all the other problems caused by the government when spending the money they should never have had. Foreign militarism, welfare handouts and $80 trillion entitlement promises are all coming to an end. We don't have the money or the wealth-creating capacity to catch up and care for all the needs that now exist because we rejected the market economy, sound money, self reliance and the principles of liberty.

    Since the correction of all this misallocation of resources is necessary and must come, one can look for some good that may come as this “Big Event” unfolds.

    There are two choices that people can make. The one choice that is unavailable to us is to limp along with the status quo and prop up the system with more debt, inflation and lies. That won't happen.

    One of the two choices, and the one chosen so often by government in the past is that of rejecting the principles of liberty and resorting to even bigger and more authoritarian government. Some argue that giving dictatorial powers to the President, just as we have allowed him to run the American empire, is what we should do. That's the great danger, and in this post-911 atmosphere, too many Americans are seeking safety over freedom. We have already lost too many of our personal liberties already. Real fear of economic collapse could prompt central planners to act to such a degree that the New Deal of the 30's might look like Jefferson 's Declaration of Independence.

    The more the government is allowed to do in taking over and running the economy, the deeper the depression gets and the longer it lasts. That was the story of the 30s and the early 40s, and the same mistakes are likely to be made again if we do not wake up.

    But the good news is that it need not be so bad if we do the right thing. I saw “Something Big” happening in the past 18 months on the campaign trail. I was encouraged that we are capable of waking up and doing the right thing. I have literally met thousands of high school and college kids who are quite willing to accept the challenge and responsibility of a free society and reject the cradle-to-grave welfare that is promised them by so many do-good politicians.

    If more hear the message of liberty, more will join in this effort. The failure of our foreign policy, welfare system, and monetary policies and virtually all government solutions are so readily apparent, it doesn't take that much convincing. But the positive message of how freedom works and why it's possible is what is urgently needed.

    One of the best parts of accepting self reliance in a free society is that true personal satisfaction with one's own life can be achieved. This doesn't happen when the government assumes the role of guardian, parent or provider, because it eliminates a sense of pride. But the real problem is the government can't provide the safety and economic security that it claims. The so called good that government claims it can deliver is always achieved at the expense of someone else's freedom. It's a failed system and the young people know it.

    Restoring a free society doesn't eliminate the need to get our house in order and to pay for the extravagant spending. But the pain would not be long-lasting if we did the right things, and best of all the empire would have to end for financial reasons. Our wars would stop, the attack on civil liberties would cease, and prosperity would return. The choices are clear: it shouldn't be difficult, but the big event now unfolding gives us a great opportunity to reverse the tide and resume the truly great American Revolution started in 1776. Opportunity knocks in spite of the urgency and the dangers we face.

    Let's make “Something Big Is Happening” be the discovery that freedom works and is popular and the big economic and political event we're witnessing is a blessing in disguise.

    SOURCE: House.gov/Paul

    What is the big event? A day will come were the US governement will be insolvent and they will have to lie to us. But the truth will be very obvious. The value of the dollar will plummet, the stock market will like shut down for a week. I guees no one thought deeply about economic warfare. Well the USA already lost, a long time ago, and was being used by globalist that were the globalist the last century and the one before that and so on and so on. But how could something be so organized. Know your history and it will not seem so difficult. Know your monetray history and it gets kinda obvious.

    So what does our society look like with a dollar valued at 40. The banking system will be nationalized, food rationing will take place, you must have your papers on you, basically every thing we ASSUME we have with rights, will be gone.

    We watch toghether. Put your seat belt on.

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  07-18-2008, 11:05 AM 63636 in reply to 63621

    Re: The Teal-Obama thread

    Innerline:

    Way back when I first met MM, I made a charge against Hillary that was pretty vague and pretty strong. MM told me to state my case clearly with evidence. I admitted that I could not.

    I am going to tell you point blank: these vague references to something big and times are bad and loss of liberty and lies and the rest are just so unhelpful. So, I ask you - put up or ... show a little more responsibility.

    I read the Ron Paul piece and I cannot tell if he is describing his personal world or the world I live in.

    The piece is a big amorphous dollop of angst. It is flabby, weak, unsupported, meandering, and highly unuseful to help anyone.

    It is kind of like going into a theater and saying, "did they put out the fire yet?" What fire? Where?

    I would like to ask you again:

    please provide an executive summary of the following:

    what exactly, and I mean exactly, is wrong with a monetary system that is not pegged to gold?

    what exactly is going to happen because of this?

    what exactly do you propose?

    how exactly are our collective lives materially worse off now than every before?

    what exactly is the crisis when Americans have to pay the same price for gas that most of the world has been paying for decades?

    what exactly is the crisis when market corrections bring the price of homes back to levels that semi-correspond to what they are worth?

    how exactly was life better in the good old days when the central conspirators did not control monetary policy?

    what exactly are these principles of liberty that Ron Paul is talking about and how exactly are we lacking them in our daily lives?

    how exactly are our civil liberties under attack and how exactly will prosperity return when this attack is stopped?

    do you seriously contend that your civil liberties are under attack? Name 3 things you would like to be able to do, but are not able to do in this country, and tell me where in the world you can do those things?

    who is the last person you personally know who was arrested for making a speech, practicing a religion, owning a gun, criticising the government, showing bad taste, watching silly TV shows, or being a goof ball?

    I am going to stop here. And ask you to take ownership over these assertions you keep making. You owe it to everyone at this point to start being specific about what is wrong, why it is wrong, and how things were better at any point in the past.

    In summary: life has never been better. You now enjoy more freedoms, more prosperity, more options, more choices, more wisdom, and to not recognize this is just very odd.

    There is a kind of zero-sum thinking that is completely freaked out about doing things like using credit cards, borrowing money, not paying cash on the barrel, investing, priming the pump, etc. In fact, there is a kind of zero-sum thinking that is completely freaked out by private property rights and letting markets determine anything. At some point, one simply has to trust in the collective wisdom of the masses. You cannot chart out prosperity on a sheet of paper. It zigs and zags and over and over has proven that it will give the people exactly what they want when the people have the freedom to make choices.

    Please tell us in your own words where the fire is.

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  07-18-2008, 2:48 PM 63711 in reply to 63636

    Re: The Teal-Obama thread

    Schalk show a little more imagination. Do I have to feed you everything.

    I read the Ron Paul piece and I cannot tell if he is describing his personal world or the world I live in.

    Same one your in. Kinda silly statement.

    The piece is a big amorphous dollop of angst. It is flabby, weak, unsupported, meandering, and highly unuseful to help anyone.

    Ron Paul is very direct, and very very supported in what he is saying. Is their something specific in what he saying that turns you off?

    what exactly, and I mean exactly, is wrong with a monetary system that is not pegged to gold?

    Nothing is really wrong with a monetary system that is not pegged to gold. It could be sea shells or anything we agree on. But having a monetary system that is not PEGGED to anything lets those who control the issuence of the money the power to abuse it at the expense of the people. Just like Ron Paul is saying.

    what exactly is going to happen because of this?

    The Dollar is going to lose all of its value at some point. Many examples in history of this. Which means people will lose most of their wealth, just like history. Germany in 1923.  

    what exactly do you propose?

    If you have a house you should have sold it over a year ago. If not its value will be much , much lower. Like 40% of its value in 2006. If you can sell it go ahead. Get your money out of the american banking system and into a foreign account or goldmoney.com . Stock up on food and gas and start talking to people you can trust. Thats it for now.

    how exactly are our collective lives materially worse off now than every before?

    Not right now. Let see the difference a year can make.

    what exactly is the crisis when Americans have to pay the same price for gas that most of the world has been paying for decades?

    Your not thinking about all the american systems that do or did not factor in these prices. Ya the rest of the world pays more and there system have adjusted. Ours can not adjust this quickly, no nation can. Gas has not gone up as much for foreigners as ours because of the DOLLAR. 

    how exactly was life better in the good old days when the central conspirators did not control monetary policy?

    It goes beyond the written history. And I I have no illusions to a better past. I am Integrally informed on this.

    what exactly are these principles of liberty that Ron Paul is talking about and how exactly are we lacking them in our daily lives?

    The way we are taxed is an abuse to your right to your labor and property. SS is a tax due to the way they have used the funds. Medicare is another. Inflation is a hidden tax. The balance of power between individuals and the government is tilted into socialism not free markets. The barrier to entry into any market is high. The more resposible the government is for our livelyhood the less idividual freedom we will have in the systems involved. In this respect we have never had the liberty that Ron Paul is promoting. The Bill of Rights is clear on all this. The dream could not be fufilled mostly due to biological constrants at its inseption and now its just because we are unaware. We have the technology too due it. And now we the people, do not control government because it is a socialist state. We the people unknowingly gave up our power ,when they started taking it in 1913 in earnst. As Ron Paul states in his statement to congress.

    how exactly are our civil liberties under attack and how exactly will prosperity return when this attack is stopped?

    Have you been following the Patriot Acts? I think you know what civil liberties have been taken away. There are many.

    By prosperity, do you mean our standard of living? I am saying that the human world is about to change drastically. The definition of prosperity will change with this. No return, an imergent that can send us up or down, and all arrows are pointing down. We do not have much time to make it an up movement. We would need universal ethics on the global level and we are far from this.

    do you seriously contend that your civil liberties are under attack? Name 3 things you would like to be able to do, but are not able to do in this country, and tell me where in the world you can do those things?

    Have a personal bank account denominated in what ever currency I want. South Korea can do this. America is like 26th out of fifty first world countries in economic liberty.

    There are alot of things that are illegal to put in your body. You know, the War on Drugs. I know alot of countries that do not conrol substances like LSD, Mushrooms, Pot, etc

    I have to pay car insurance to use a car. Insurance should always be a personal choice. Many countries do not demand you have car insurance to use a car.

    who is the last person you personally know who was arrested for making a speech, practicing a religion, owning a gun, criticising the government, showing bad taste, watching silly TV shows, or being a goof ball?

    I personally do not know anyone who was arrested for any of those things, Oops, thats not true, I just remembered I have a friend who has been arrested many times for protecting buffallo at Yellowstone. Makes me cry. There are many current outrageous example of abuse of power. Like http://www.jbs.org/index.php/jbs-news-feed/7-jbs-news-feed/2085-imprisonment-by-executive-order 

    I am going to stop here. And ask you to take ownership over these assertions you keep making. You owe it to everyone at this point to start being specific about what is wrong, why it is wrong, and how things were better at any point in the past.

    I feel like I am doing this. I am not saying things were better in the past. I do talk about history. It is impossible for me to open your mind when I say the dollar is going to crash and you do not know how that will effect you. I am saying that the lack of monetary knowledge is causing this and is a part of the problem. I do not know your personal situation. Have over 2 million in liquid assets and you will be fine. Think your hard work of the past will be honored the same way in the future. Not!  People thought if you were able to save half a million dollars in 1994 you were good. But that half mill in 2010 is 200,000 dollars in 1994 terms. This is inflation. The dollar was worth 120 back in 2000. And now its at 72. I am saying it can easily go to 40 in one month with the global forces involved. The game has been kept afloat to look like everything is OK. It is not. I have given you real world data in the articles I am giving you. I am also saying by the time average Joe really notices big changes it will be way to late to do something about it for YOUR PERSON.

    The truth is the truth is the truth. It does not need to speak. If what I am saying disturbes you then make your own study. The truth is there equally for me as is for you. But our capacities to relate to the truth is not equal. Schalk I am not into conspiracy theory, just people can see it that way. I am into the finding the truth in all domains. Tetra arising.

    Please tell us in your own words where the fire is.

    Coming to a local bank near you. Hope your money not in it. Fire beats paper.

     

     

    • Post Points: 35
    • Report abuse
  •  07-18-2008, 9:26 PM 63836 in reply to 63711

    Re: The Teal-Obama thread

    Hey, Innerline. Innerline in purple.

     

    How do you know it is not so organized, mm? Is this not a huge assumption on your part.

     

    I haven't seen any evidence that there is an organized conspiracy.

     

    Shut out of what, MM? What are you talking about?

    I just mean that if one doesn't have one's hands on the levers of power and also doesn't have one's eyes on the person who does then one can feel out of the loop.

    I have to pay car insurance to use a car. Insurance should always be a personal choice. Many countries do not demand you have car insurance to use a car.

    What if someone without insurance (and without much money) hits someone and hurts them? Who will pay for the medical costs? Who will compensate them for lost income?

     

    mm

     

    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  07-19-2008, 12:14 AM 63891 in reply to 63711

    Re: The Teal-Obama thread

    Innerline:

    Thanks for trying to convince me.

    A couple of places we differ are:

    1. You are correct, our monetary system is a big confidence game. It ultimately floats on nothing but our imagination. That is to say, it is not pegged to anything that could be quantified in the real world.

    Where we differ is this: I am comfortable that whatever evil conspirators are out there right now, the forces of sanity and welfare for all see enough and know enough to keep them from driving us over the edge, though they will try, just as hackers try to bring down the Internet and terrorists try to do what they do.

    If it's any solace, it seems that self-interest acting to benefit humanity is a stronger drive than self-interest acting to harm humanity. It is still self interest, but it always tends to do good things in service of the ego.

    We are now at a point where we recognize that we all have to survive - that is why the US and other nations do things like bail out Mexico and Thailand and South Korea and why the world cannot have the US fall apart.

    Materially and economically, there are prices to pay for exuberance. But the price is like bitter medicine that helps you get well, not like cyanide.

    2. This vision of the free society with liberty for all is great to think about, but there is a reason why every "assault on civil liberties" exists.

    As MM pointed out, there is a good reason for mandating auto insurance. It spreads the risk among us all of a devasting 1 second incident that can destroy you. Imagine hitting a pedestrian because you had a sudden spasm in your neck, or something totally unpredicable. With no insurance, you are tits up. With insurance, you and I and everyone shares the cost and you get to carry on roughly intact. (Now imagine slickly avoiding the pedestrian! I just want to end on a high note...)

    I have whined about US speed limits. But I know what I was like as a 16 year old driver, drunk or sober, and it just isn't fair to let every idiot like me drive however they like and take out entire families or go careening through plate glass windows because we misjudged road conditions.

    Social security. There is a good reason that a society creates a basic bedroom level of subsistence for older people. So they are not living in the street after a lifetime of working and paying taxes. Even though they did live irresponsibly and failed to save any money for retirement.

    The Patriot Act - I am not seeing how this is unfair or unjustified. I want the government to be able to identify terrorist cells and stop them.

    This wonderful wild west world of freedom is absolutely not wonderful. There is massive pain and predatory behavior and lack of safety nets and subjection to the consequences of bad luck.

    I bought a fishing license yesterday. I was thinking - what happened to the good old days when you could just go out and fish? Now there are 1,001 rules on adipose fins and hatchery salmon and zones and limits and .... And you know why those rules all exist? It is not a grand conspiracy to deprive us of liberty. They exist because we need an organized program of conservation or in 5 years there will be no fish left to catch. Every cowboy in the wild west will be out in the water with nets and dynamite and fish finders and ...

    Go ahead and show me some more deprivations of our civil liberties. I will tell you why these are necessary and reasonable actions that have been democratically agreed upon.

    I notice you haven't exhibited a concern about global warming. Do you have any thoughts on how many new gasoline-fueled cars need to hit the roads in the prosperous new China? At what point we need a radically different program for fueling the world, one that is not based on burning carbon products?

    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  07-19-2008, 7:16 AM 63959 in reply to 62906

    Re: The Teal-Obama thread

    Hi innerline - I think that this is a very interesting question about who has rights or providence to a particular piece of ground. (I'm going with you for a minute, drifting a bit from central Obama.) It obviously is a complex issue, even in property law as we know it in the US, as trickled over from European origins. Make it an international question and, what a mess.

    As you suggest historically, over centuries, there is so much flux and flow (hmmm, that sounds smooth - glossing over all sorts of shenanigans, brutality and suffering) of "ownership", dominance, and cultural influence. I like this dynamically graphic map that shows some of this flux, even in the area of the middle east of which you speak:
    http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html

    Ambo Suno
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  07-19-2008, 5:23 PM 64083 in reply to 63959

    Re: The Teal-Obama thread

    Hi ambosuno, I saw that before and really enjoyed it again. Thanks

    Schalk and mm, I am happy you guys gave me the time of day. I feel like I have put enough info out there. Now lets see how event e/unfold and whether some of the topics on money might get interesting. Like the current Fannie Mae and Mac problem. I am interested in how you will interpret current event as the economic news gets more intense. It took me a long time to process Caroll Quigley's  book. 

    Schalk, I was deeply impacted in 1998 by the book "Last hours of Ancient Sunlight" . I was deeply concerned for the environment. Now I am deeply concerned for the soul of humanity. In that book the author ( I think it was Thomas Hartmann) went through many of the problems and then brought the story to the point were it is an internal problem within western conscouisness and that no amount of regulation will help, only the internal transformation would make the difference. Ken goes through the partialness of the envirmental movement in SES. I am lucky enough to have a powerful scientific mind, I was an electrical engineer and saw the global warming threat as propaganda for the green crowd. Pollution should be the story not global warming. The sun contols the temperture of the earth to a far greater degree than anthything else. Real scientist do not go with the global warming crowed. Al Gore made many scientific errors in his video. It was propaganda for green. Something green never thought could happen to them since they seem so smart compared to everyone else in the spiral. For the global elites, greenies are just as dumb as everyone else in the first tier. First teir is very easy to manipulate. Fear rules their imagination.

    Sorry if I took this post off topic. What about that Obama? Did you see the New Yorker cover? 

    • Post Points: 35
    • Report abuse
  •  07-19-2008, 6:02 PM 64101 in reply to 64083

    Re: The Teal-Obama thread

    Innerline:

    I appreciate all that you have provided.

    I want to tell you that I am always suspicious of my ability to create a map or system that accounts for the world's systems. I think a great example of a brilliant map maker was Karl Marx. But there was something he forgot about. And it is that something that led to immense misery for enormous amounts of people.

    So, we can "think" about the systems and like an electrical engineer, we can try and determine whether all of the switches are lined up and whether the power will flow without interruption to the end and light the bulb. And we can conclude that the system will not work. But I am suspicious of our ability to pre-check the systems we are talking about.

    What I have faith in is the power of free flowing information and human motivation to be good and satisfy their self-interest by promoting the interests of everyone.

    I am tempted to ask whether I am deluding myself, but I have enough confidence in my ability to follow the threads of relevant evidence, and right now I am not seeing any evidence that points to a crisis in America that will lead to chaos. Generalized cries of alarm by Ron Paul do not satisfy what I need to become concerned.

    I don't read the reports of the Federal Reserve. I am just using the most undeluded point of view I can muster to look at what is happening, why it is happening, and how it happened.

    So, I extend an open invitation - if we are all in danger, please tell us immediately, and specifically point to how it is going to happen and what we must do to solve the problem.

    By the way, a few days ago, the deadline passed on the dire emergency asserted by Lyndon Larouche supporters to me at my local post office. They told me that on 16 July the economic system was going to collapse. Today, I went to the bank, my money was all there, and prices are the same (gas is down a little I think).

    Obama and the New Yorker? I have been predicting that the smoldering race subject would leak out in new and unexpected places as we get closer to November.

    The bottom line: power is power. People who will do anthing to get and keep it ... will do anything to get it and keep it! And once you lose it, you can count on those who took it to do anything to keep it.

    And there is in America a very alive notion that races are a real and useful way to group us. The very FACT that blacks, and whites, and Hispanics, and Asians think of themselves in these terms tells us that ... THEY THINK OF THEMSELVES IN THESE TERMS!

    Skin color is a quick and easy way to identify which team we are on. Many people use it.

    Which we know is a very first-tier, limiting, semi-stupid way to view the identity of a human. Except that it is a very real and current technique. If it wasn't, we wouldn't even hear the term African-American, or Hispanic, except in reference to a cultural artifact like a poem or a song. Yet, we hear it all of the time.

    So, there is a lingering concern in America about "African-Americanism" taking the reigns in the White House. And what will this mean for history and power? Will the Civil War be re-ignited? Will the issues of slavery reparations be revived? With there be payback?

    The New Yorker is an old, staid institution. They define themselves through their restraint, their understatement, their class, their WASP-iness. And I think that something snapped and they did something in a mocking and pseudo-hip way just to brush the dust off their name.

    By the way, they have to be losing money big time. You know anyone who has recently bought a new subscription to the New Yorker? This may have been a final death shiver of a dinosaur.

    The Obama candidacy is an excellent mirror that shows America who it is. I am eagerly awaiting November though, because I have an abiding suspicion that many, many people who have publicly trumpeted Obama are going to vote McCain out of concern for the power of their race. This may be a Korean, or a Chinese, or an Hispanic, or a Caucasian, but I think we are going to be astounded at the disconnect between the assertions made to the pollsters and the actual numbers that come in on Election Day.

    I have mentioned before - race in America is not about the superiority of a given race. It is a simple and naked concern for power. Locally and nationally. It is highly a shadow game. Whites suspect that blacks will do to them exactly what whites have done to blacks from the beginning. And they may be right, because ... blacks suspect that whites will continue doing to them what they have always done.

    An Obama presidency would be an excellent opportunity to pull the band-aids off a lot of wounds and see whether anything is healed. It would be enormously good for America (not because of what Obama specifically thinks he will do, but simply due to the color of his father's skin). But I don't see it happening. Weird stuff happens in the confessional booth, stuff you never heard about before.  

     

     

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  07-22-2008, 7:00 PM 64804 in reply to 64101

    Re: The Teal-Obama thread

    I read the following article today and what struck me in particular was the line:

    "I think there are a lot of anti-war Democrats who, like me, are impressed by these facts and who now see a moral obligation,"

    What has always disturbed(ok, really pissed me off) me about the far left, Cindy Sheehan, anti-war crowd is the lack of concern or feeling of responsibility to Iraq or it's people during this conflict.  When the violence was especially high and the country appeared going down the tubes their cries of getting out got louder. Basically they would let the country go to the sh__ter to have their way, no concern for the consequences for us or them.

    The writer says "who now see a moral obligation".  My question is: why only now?

     

       

     

    July 21, 2008

    Confessions of an Anti-Iraq War Democrat: Memories of a Purple Finger (Lanny Davis)

    @ 10:38 am

    I remember the exact moment I had my first serious doubts about whether I was 100 percent right that the U.S. preemptive invasion of Iraq and the take-out of Saddam Hussein was a serious mistake.

    I had been strongly opposed to the U.S. intervention from the start. I felt this way even though I believed (as did most everyone, including the intelligence community) that Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and even though I thought that Saddam was a murderous, genocidal thug and the world would be better off — and the U.S. safer — with him dead.

    However, I reasoned, the WMD inspectors were back in and we had Saddam surrounded — thanks to George Bush, to whom, by the way, we Democrats did not give sufficient credit at the time.

    So why risk the uncertainties of a preemptive invasion, loss of life and treasure, and diverting our attention from 9/11 and the war against terror, which most U.S. intelligence indicated had nothing to do with Saddam?

    Of course, all these were good reasons for opposing starting the war, even as I look back now

    But then came my first moment of doubt.

    I saw on TV in early 2005, in their first preliminary democratic elections, long lines of Iraqis waiting to vote under the hot desert sun with bombs and shrapnel exploding around them. Waiting to vote!

    And then there was that indelible image — an older woman shrouded in a carpet-like cape, smiling gleefully and holding her purple finger in the air for the TV cameras, purple with ink showing that she had voted.

    Smiling! In the middle of war! As U.S. troops standing nearby!

    Wow, I thought. Is it possible I was wrong?

    Is it possible, I wondered, that Iraqis truly did want democracy and freedom and the right to vote and government of the people, just as we Americans do? And were willing to fight for it, with our help?

    Wouldn’t that be a good thing? Even a great thing?

    Maybe another democracy, however imperfect, other than Israel in the Middle East could lead to more moderation, possibly other democracies? Democracies that could serve as bulwarks against al Qaeda-type of terrorist states?

    Then in 2005-2006 came the increased violence from the Sunni insurgents against American kids, then the sectarian civil war between Sunnis and Shiites, with young Americans caught in the crossfire. My certainty in opposing the war and supporting a deadline for getting out re-emerged.

    And then in early 2007 came the surge, which so many of us in the anti-war left of the Democratic Party predicted would be a failure, throwing good men and women and billions of dollars after futility. We were wrong.

    The surge did, in fact, lead to a reduction of violence, confirmed by media on the ground as well as our military leaders. It did allow the Shiite government of Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki in the last several months to show leadership by joining, if not leading, the military effort to clean out of Basra the masked Mahdi Army controlled by the anti-U.S. Shiite extremist cleric Moqtada al-Sadr and in the Sadr City section of Baghdad he claimed to control.

    This willingness by the Shiite-dominated Maliki government to move against the Sadr Shiite extremists won crucial credibility for the government among many Sunni leaders and Sunnis on the streets, who joined together with Shiites to turn against the al Qaeda in Iraq and other Taliban-like extremists.

    These are facts, not arguments.  

    After all the carnage and destruction wrought by our military intervention, I think there are a lot of anti-war Democrats who, like me, are impressed by these facts and who now see a moral obligation not just to pick up and leave without looking over our shoulders.

    Surely we owe the Iraqis who helped us, whose lives are in danger, immediate immigration rights to the U.S. Yet the shameful fact is that most are still not even close to having such rights.

    Surely we owe the Maliki government and the Shi'ite and Sunni soldiers who put their lives on the line against Shiite and Sunni extremists and terrorists at our behest some continuing presence and support and patience as they strive to find peace, political reconciliation — and maybe even the beginnings of a stable democracy.

    The only question is, for how long?

    Forever? No. 100 years? No.

    But for how long? I don’t know.

    I just know I can't get out of my mind that lady with the purple finger held up, smiling into the camera. If getting in was a mistake, then getting out — how and when — is not so simple as long as there is hope that she can some day live in a democratic Iraq that can help America in the war against terror.

    Even if Obama came to the same view as this writer, he probably couldn't voice it for political reasons. His stance could very well be his Achilles heal in this election.

    I like many things the green meme has done, I even remember my green phase( thinking how great and evolved switzerland was for it's neutrality, for example...a view long ago wisesly reconsidered) but the green meme scares the hell out of me at times.

    One example is shortly after Sept 11th, I was living in Europe at the time in a student house.  As the U.S was preparing to go into Afghanistan to topple the Taliban, one girl in particular was always going to "peace" marches and protests against the invasion.  It struck me later, that this was an example of Green enabling Red.  Here we have a brutal Taliban regime who, if this girl had been Afghan, wouldn't have been able to go to school or even have most of the freedoms she enjoys in Europe, defending this group on the naive and shallow notion of "peace, not war" (as if it were just that simple)

    The surge is another example, don't fight Al Quaeda and the thugs, just get out.  Fortunately, amber was in power and calling the shots.  I remember when this debate was going on and I told myself that if the surge worked(probably even if it didn't, at least the attempt), I was going to vote Rebublican. There is nothing more annoying than to see the most powerful military the world has ever known, rendered ineffective.  Especially when it is fighting for the benefit of U.S AND Iraq.

    It has been mentioned that Amber can be "stupid" and I agree, but I think we can say that green can be "naive".

    With green coming to prominence more and more in the next generation, I am glad the U.S has Amber/Orange to balance it. Many complain about our RedState/Blue State, left vs right situation, but I can't help but think this is a good thing. When the current Green meme advances to Teal, they will have prominent Amber/Orange views available that will help integration. 

     

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  07-23-2008, 1:56 PM 65183 in reply to 64804

    Re: The Teal-Obama thread

    Monkmonk in black; Innerline in purple; Schalk in blue; Kaspan in green.

    Sorry if I took this post off topic. What about that Obama? Did you see the New Yorker cover? 

    I saw the cover but didn't read the article. From what I read--from their defense of the cover--it was actually an attempt to help Obama, to debunk the myths, to make fun of the myths. Is this so, or has a conservative burrowed into the New Yorker? If it was intended to help Obama I think it backfired. Images speak louder than words for a lot of people. It's the image that will stick with them and put doubt in their minds.

     

    An Obama presidency would be an excellent opportunity to pull the band-aids off a lot of wounds and see whether anything is healed. It would be enormously good for America (not because of what Obama specifically thinks he will do, but simply due to the color of his father's skin). But I don't see it happening. Weird stuff happens in the confessional booth, stuff you never heard about before.  

    I basically agree with this, except I think he does bring a lot of talent and perhaps even a touch of integral thinking if the candidate we are seeing now is the real him (as I think you have said in the past as well). And he might be given as much slack internationally as he has domestically. If we did launch a preemptive strike against Iran, for example, I would much rather have Obama doing it than McCain, who the rest of the world equates with Bush. I like Obama now a lot more than the progressive we saw in the primaries. But this could very well be wishful thinking on my part now. I think you're quite right about the polls/voting booth issue. Obama consistently polled better than he did on election day during the primaries. I think his best chance is with Hillary, whether or not she would work well with him as vp.

    What has always disturbed(ok, really pissed me off) me about the far left, Cindy Sheehan, anti-war crowd is the lack of concern or feeling of responsibility to Iraq or it's people during this conflict.

    I quite agree. They have not shown any responsibility for this. They just got stuck on how it began, kind of like some people are still stuck on Hillary not winning the primary and thinking more about that than the choice we have in this election. It's a similar thing now with Iran. Green values peace and not imposing your will on other people (unless it's to impose Green values). I'm not necessarily arguing for a preemptive attack, but Green itself is not offering a viable alternative (it just makes sense to them that if we have the bomb then Iran should be able to have one as well and that the Iranian regime isn't any different than the Soviets).

    As the U.S was preparing to go into Afghanistan to topple the Taliban, one girl in particular was always going to "peace" marches and protests against the invasion. It struck me later, that this was an example of Green enabling Red. 

    Right, I think so too. I don't know of a credible argument for not toppling the Taliban. The same thing for the first gulf war, though I think we might question a few things in terms of how it was carried out. It's just why we wouldn't want Green values in the White House right now. The question of the day is: Who is the real Obama?

     

    It has been mentioned that Amber can be "stupid" and I agree, but I think we can say that green can be "naive".

    Yes, it can be very naive. It can also project its own values and cognition onto Red and Amber and take national security and economic stablity for granted. It just doesn't see what sort of conditions (and fulcrums) created its own value sphere.

    With green coming to prominence more and more in the next generation, I am glad the U.S has Amber/Orange to balance it.

    Yes, I am as well. Some people really blame "the system" for everything, and of course the LR system needs to be reformed, but in a certain way it seems to be functioning: it brings first-tier memes to the center, seems to encourage Amber to move into Orange (as it seems to have done with the Bush administration in some ways) and Green into either Teal or healthy Green (one that is integrating at least some Orange values) while shutting out extreme Green. I used to dream of the day when Green Democrats would gain an overwhelming majority in Congress as well as the White House and Supreme Court, but now that is not a pleasant idea.

     

    mm

     

     

     

     

     

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  07-23-2008, 4:59 PM 65258 in reply to 65183

    Re: The Teal-Obama thread

    mm, When you stated this " and of course the LR system needs to be reformed, but in a certain way it seems to be functioning:", it makes me ask, how the LR is going to be reformed? and I think that "seems" is not going to cut it with the dialog on this recent Democracy Now! video. Will Smith is in a shot.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSqreVCU7d8&feature=related

    Please get current.Sorry for being me.

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  07-23-2008, 6:29 PM 65292 in reply to 65258

    Re: The Teal-Obama thread

    They're sounding a little alarmist at Democracy Now! Anyway, I was just referring to a certain aspect of the political system (while the video addressed economic issues), how it seems to shut out radicals and work people who drift too far from the center back to the center.

     

    mm

    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  07-23-2008, 9:09 PM 65337 in reply to 64083

    Re: The Teal-Obama thread

    IL, here is an interesting tactic by some Palestinians who are feeling oppressed. I happen to think that oppression, domination, and abuse go on in so many directions from so many groups and arising out of so many AQAL facets that it's usually hard for me to analyze in any simple way right from wrong. Even this snippet of a socio-political zone doesn't give me any answers, but I do like seeing certain kinds of basic injustice outed through video recording of incidences that are usually hard to document.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/25819941#25819941


    Ambo Suno
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  07-25-2008, 2:41 PM 65755 in reply to 65337

    Re: The Teal-Obama thread

    Ambo, Saw the video and was encouraged. Check out this link for more on the situation for Palestinians.

    http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=13193

    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
Page 18 of 18 (270 items)   « First ... < Previous 14 15 16 17 18
View as RSS news feed in XML
 © Integral Institute, 2006