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Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

Last post 08-05-2007, 11:46 AM by Lizzie. 53 replies.
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  •  03-01-2007, 6:49 PM 19840 in reply to 19783

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions


    thanks very much, lindsey, for your perspective on this. it's only a perspective and largely a 3rd person one at that, but a valuable one, imo, because of its rarity.

    i hope you will continue to post from time to time, as the need arises,

    ralph

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  •  03-01-2007, 10:28 PM 19852 in reply to 19821

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions


    hi brian,

    i'm an enthusiastic student of ken's, and i've come to completely trust him because i've never been able to come up with any evidence contrary to what he's said. it seems to me to be quite the opposite with regard to don. i do think this is something ken would like to put behind him, if for no other reason, because he has many other more important things to attend to, so my guess is you will not hear anything more from him, for all of don's mouthings about the year of accountability, for at least a couple of years or so, that is, until he feels it's time, again, to set the record straight.

    namaste, ralph





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  •  03-02-2007, 4:19 AM 19866 in reply to 19852

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    I should point out that Don Beck is not only a theorist, but one who actually applies theories to real world problems. I have, as yet, to see anything more from Ken than espousing theory only. If I am wrong, I am wrong.
    JC
    33° 13' N 87° 37' W
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  •  03-02-2007, 7:41 AM 19876 in reply to 19866

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

      JC,
      I agree with you whole heartedly.  IMO Dons model, even if it's incomplete, seems to be more applicable at this stage in the game, probably because he is applying it.  Ultimately, I feel Kens model is more complete, but what Don points out over and over is to be commended.  (Identifying environments and making simple adjustments in order to turn those environments to positive.)  In his own words, he is in the business of shaping habitats.  Right now I see this as a very effective approach to the world we face, and we need an effective approach now!  Don is a classic, if you have ever met the guy you would have undeniable compassion for him.  I have never met Ken so I can't say much.  But they both serve a noble cause, cheers to them both!


    There is no individual possession, only universal belonging.
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  •  03-03-2007, 5:48 AM 19956 in reply to 19876

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    DECISION-MAKING STRUCTURES. The design and implementation of successful All Quadrants/All Levels initiatives requires a new generation of decision-making formulas and processes. While each of the vMEMES has evolved its own form of problem resolution, the Yellow-Integral and Turquoise-Holistic worldviews contain the intelligences to macromanage the whole human Spiral. -- Excerpt from a Don Beck essay.

    My failure to see the differences in what KW and Don present as integral frameworks is one reason, I think, Don is calling KW Orange Sleaze. It appears KW is like someone who siphons out gas from someones else's car to fuel his own. At this point, as a Holistic practitioner, I believe in Don Beck moreso than KW's until proven wrong. I believe in Holism moreso than either of the two. I agree with Don that 2007 is the year for ACCOUNTABILITY in the informational marketplace.


    JC
    33° 13' N 87° 37' W
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  •  03-04-2007, 8:01 AM 20013 in reply to 19956

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    I believe it was a healthy respect and sharing of ideas between Ken and Don which has resulted in two systems with a lot of common ground and terminology. (Not nearly enough room here for details). However, immho, it was an unhealthy clash of personalities and approaches that spawned the rift we now witness between these two integrally oriented groups and their founders. Furthermore, I suspect the competition for resources adds unseen fuel to the fire. But it will be the integral movement as a whole that will suffer if these esteemed men continue to abuse the color coded stage delineations in their acerbic exchanges. When adjectives with negative connotations are added to the color scheme in veiled or not so veiled personal attacks the egalitarian viewpoint that these "labels" are no different and no less marginalizing than any others gains a great deal of credibility and "integral" becomes just another deconstructed concept. Imo, such exchanges are expressions of "unhealthy second tier", perhaps resulting from a shadow with its roots in "red" egocentric structures.

     Jerry

     

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  •  03-04-2007, 1:35 PM 20035 in reply to 20013

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

        There is a direct correlation to what I am about to say and the discussion on the another board ' For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this.'  So I plan on posting this message on both.

                Lets consider Kens response to what is the shadow of turquoise, ‘The shadow of Turquoise is an inability to see one's own greatness.'  In not recognizing its own greatness is it possible it’s lost touch with how to put its own theories into practice? 

    What I have personally witnessed in my own observation lately, which I must emphasize, ’limited to my own observation,’ is that second tier purpose do not necessarily mean 2nd tier principles in practice.   The only examples that come to mind of second tier principles in practice would be that of Don Beck (Spiral Dynamics) and Dee Hock (Chaordic Organizations.) I am sure there are many more out there that I am unaware of, however what seems to be more evident is a 1st tier approache applied to 2nd tier motivation, which in theory, should fall flat on its face. 


                I bring this up because it seems obvious that I-I is having a few head aches at this point.  This makes me wonder if there ever was a Second Tier Business Plan implemented into I-I's strategy?  If there wasn’t, then we all have reason for concern.  So can anyone answer this question?  Is I-I’s Business Plan 2nd tier?
                It would seem essential that an entity like I-I, in the Upper Left, would implement a 2nd tier plan if it plans to be Integral in all other quadrants.  I believe this is correct understanding of the Integral model, but if I am incorrect, someone please clarify.
                I just got finished reading the article on Chaordic Business practices that is posted on the zaadz.I-I pod.  It covers the business plan created by Dee Hock for Visa (which I feel is 2nd tier) and that’s essentially management proof.  Now I am sure it took a while for the plan that Dee Hock initially implemented to take root, so maybe all that is needed is a little patience for I-I.  But I would hope that with all the theory (that I-I should be based on?) that it would essentially be management proof.  My understanding of an Integral Business Plan would be that it would have to be management proof (self-organizing, self-adapting, self-preserving) to be a truly Integral Plan.
                Personally I have seen nothing that I would call ‘Integral,’ integrated on Integral Naked or from I-I in general, with the exception of ILP.  

    A few questions among many; Was the questionnaire sent out Integral?  Where is the self-organization nature of I-I?  Where is greater depth (significance) when it comes to the subject matter of the forums (isn’t the entire forum, and community, based on a linear structure?)  Are we witnessing the emergence of a true Holarchy?  …in that, were all ‘Phases’ conceived at the same time under the same Plan (linear planning,) or will each Phase incorporate what emerged from the previous Phase (transcend and include?)  

                I am not assuming anything here just asking questions that probably should be asked.  If I-I has taken the audacious step in implementing an Integral Structure (which I feel they must) then they have my full support and patience.  But if for some bizarre reason I-Is structure is based on 1st tier conventional business methods, that’s a damn shame.

                If the pot needs to be stirred at I-I, then stir it.  Order from Chaos leads to emergence, that’s how Integral/Natural systems evolve.

     

      Namaste, B.


    There is no individual possession, only universal belonging.
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  •  03-07-2007, 8:16 PM 20223 in reply to 19772

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    Dear Ralph:  Thank you for your information that adds a lot to the statement about the shadow in Turquoise.  Again, I have not heard the tape and here it is much later.

    I wish I had more time.  That is my Mantra.  I keep thinking soon it will happen. I mean I am supposed to be traveling around the world about now.  I just had to take up with KW and friends. And could not affort to do the above.  I figured there was more to the statement about the Turquoise shadow.  Surely there has to be more, however, when what you posted is understood, it shows how the Shadow can drag you down or whether there is pure Gold underneath.  And also is there a process of going thru these colors or is it BAM Turquoise and it all hits you at once?  There are too many complex pieces to all of this.  I will keep looking.  What I do know is that my life it turned upside down again and I feel disoriented sometimes.  Like I just landed on the moon.   Later   Pattye

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  •  03-07-2007, 8:18 PM 20224 in reply to 19783

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    Thank you lindsey.   Pattye
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  •  03-07-2007, 8:27 PM 20225 in reply to 19795

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    Dear Turtle:  This is what I am looking for.  I spent years doing Shadow work with the Jungian slant.  It is helpful and different.  I pretty much knew that Turquoise could bring you to your knees,  raise you up, or make you an arrogant fool at moments. I now also suspect that it has  lot to do with beginnings and endings.  Work with that is pretty huge and we need to know how we handle both.  STill, I appreciate all the info I can get. Jung and Wilber can complement each other and I agree that the archtypes had to go.  There is more here.  And I wanted to say this.  I identify with your last sentence sooooo much.  My kids are stuck too.  They think I am totally nuts much of the time.  I thought we did that already when they were teens. STill I see parents trying to be buddies and that does not work in many cases.  Later Pattye
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  •  03-07-2007, 8:39 PM 20226 in reply to 19797

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    Dear B,  More good info.   I am going to zaadz to read your blog.  The latest info is   is the marketing of the book with it's smallness,, the look of a scroll and not

    "Secret"  but "The Secret" was so brilliant to make it sell.  It makes me sick.  It will die down and it may take years.  And Oprah grabs on to this stuff like a collecter who never tries any of it.  Not time, because she is off promoting another in weeks or days, while doing the secular books inbetween.  It does speak to the spiritual hunger in the US and more.   Love your baby.   Namaste  Pattye

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  •  03-08-2007, 2:37 PM 20317 in reply to 20226

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    "Internally, Phase II will allow us to implement an Integral holarchy to run the day-to-day operations of I-I. We are using a model that is, I believe, truly revolutionary. I-I will lead by example, showing the world that the 2nd Tier organizations it so desperately needs are indeed possible.

    Externally, Phase II will allow I-I to reach further into popular consciousness by deepening and expanding all the parts of the Multiplex, from Integral Training to Integral University to Integral Spiritual Center. Some of these changes have already begun, but others will require greater staff, greater expertise, and greater resources."

    -That was from Kens blog in August.

    I wish I would have read that before I posted my latest post.  Anyway I-I will always have my support (I may even up my membership after reading that.) 
      Stepping into new territory like creating a 2nd tier organization if going to have its challenges... of course!  And the knowing that 2nd tier minds are involved, chaos will only lead to further growth.  Looking back at the entire history of humankind, this is the most exciting time to be alive and I can't think of an institution that exemplifies this more than I-I.  Every person that is a part of this process is so fortunate, let's not take a minute of this for granted.


    Namaste, B.

    There is no individual possession, only universal belonging.
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  •  03-08-2007, 5:29 PM 20335 in reply to 19739

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    guydavis:
    I've been wondering what unhealthy Teal/Turqoise/Indigo look like.

    Is it possible to move to 2nd tier and be able to see first tier and then become fundamental in your assertions that anyone at green should be able to see the same things you see at 2nd tier?

    hey Guy,

    Ya, I'm sure many of us are guilty of that, especially me. And don't you just love the image of a 2nd Tier Hitler wanting to MAKE everybody "free" by force lol? This doesn't only happen when you're George Bush. But I think with 2nd Tier we're at least capable of recognizing this. If you've even had a good taste of 2nd Tier it really starts to erode the fundamentalist inside, just because now you can smell your own stink and feel ashamed. But you might choose to ignore the stench of course, as I've done many times. Somewhere in a blog Stuart Davis confessed that the reason he's so Satanic to fundamentalists is because he IS one. I appreciate his willingness to confront the beast in himself and I certainly suffer from the same problem. Honestly, and I don't know how much of me is in 2nd Tier or where I'd be anyway, but there are times in the privacy of my head I can imagine I'm sort of the benign Punisher/Batman and could grab every corrupt leader and tyrant by the tie and force them to stop being such bloody demons. I'd scare them so much they'd all throw down their weapons and run home to kiss their children...but that's a fantasy lol. FEAR might work for the moment, but after it dies down, humans still have to grow.

    Anyway, in my own case, it could be just that the Green in me is really, really, resentful of any 2nd Tier realization/revelations and, sensing its time is up, is being very, very mean. Maybe it's not the 2nd Tier that's the trouble, but the last efforts of Green to hold onto power? I await the views of those wiser than myself.

    This also gets me thinking of that most exciting ending of all books, Revelation! hey now! John speaks of one who is destined to rule the nations of the world with an iron rod. Ya like that's gonna go over! It would mean that the world to some degree was ok about being ruled with an iron rod, and then of course such a leader would be unneccessary right? I don't see it happening. Man I so wish KW would give just one talk on the final chapter of the Bible, I'd love to hear his take on it.

    Party ON,

    L

     


    Pretending wisdom
    a man tells a woman all
    about the eclipse
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  •  03-12-2007, 7:52 PM 20542 in reply to 20317

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    Dear B.  This all resonates for me and helps me feel some comfort. Comfort after the last few days of hurt and pain.  I have ask that we be able to take examples of a person that we make up and go thru all this.  Or ourselves.  It is the stories and examples that help learning along for me. Finding out that the shadow side of Turguoise is not being able to feel your own greatness or be it, or whatever, makes me wonder if there is down side like the suggestion of Hitler as I and someone else have mentioned.  He went off the chart and became arrogant and insane.  The downside of feeling so great.

    However, I also think of KW mentioning the Buddhist names in the last chapter of the Eye of the Spirit . It  seems to depend on which one of these you become. And the Buddhist names are not written in stone.  It is the personality that one becomes.

    This is the question I will ask if I ever have a question accepted.  An example would be KW's defense of Andrew being one of the bad boys, very tough on people.

    Later Pattye

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  •  03-13-2007, 2:01 AM 20550 in reply to 20542

    • ats is not online. Last active: 08-05-2007, 1:07 AM ats
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    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    It would seem to me that Don is not 3rd Tier.  Otherwise, he would close up SD and merge with AQAL and adapt his source code to AQAL.  I have seen KW's criticism of SD and I have to agree that SD is not accurate, more comprehensive and therefore rarther reaching.  A true 3rd Tier person would be able to let go of "30 years" of pioneering research in light of adapting the source code to a better system.  Sounds like an ego clinging to me.

    We have faced this many times in history.  Windows operating system was not the best OS out there.  It crashed, was inefficient, etc.  There were better products out there.  Orange sleeze ensured Windows prevailed.  The same can be said of VHS.  Beta was clearly superior to VHS, but Orange sleeze ensured that VHS would win.  I don't want SD to be the next Windows.  That would be disastrous.  It doesn't have the potential that AQAL has.  Instead of Don competing with AQAL, he should admit that the student has surpassed the teacher and work to fascilitate AQAL.


    myspace.com/zentaimusic
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