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Welcome to the ILP Kit Forum!

Last post 08-26-2007, 2:41 PM by NormaGorst. 36 replies.
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  •  05-04-2007, 8:00 PM 22298 in reply to 22289

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    For that reason, I'd be very curious to hear from people who have worked with audio-visual presentations of the BM/BH process initially, then later had a group and/or individual BM/BH experience.  How does working with the DVD compare with group and one-to-one work?

    Hi Arthur,

    I'll also be curious as well to see Huy's response to your question and am very excited to see the discussions developing on this thread. In my own experience my first taste of Big Mind came listening to the facilitation in Genpo Roshi's first appearance on Integral Naked. I had no expectations at that time, andthe whole thing  indeed seemed unsual to say the least, but it worked wonderfully. Since that opening I've attended a workshop by Genpo Roshi and done work in groups and individually with students of Genpo Roshi as well as the ILP DVD. In all cases I believe the state experience of Big Mind, Big Heart etc. has been the same, but the access has become easier and more stable with repitition. It's one of the most effective processes I've found in 20 years of practice and am grateful to the integral community for highlighting it.


    Namaste,
    Harv

    "(The) Practice of love is always available- and expressive of your deepest truth- right now."
    -David Deida
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  •  05-04-2007, 11:39 PM 22306 in reply to 22289

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    Huy, I'm curious as to how effective you feel a "DVD transmission" of the BM/BH process can be.  Even in the case of a group BM/BH process (see above linked thread) some people have expressed scepticism that they are having a genuine Big Mind experience.  Do you think it may be that some (or many) people need a one-to-one transmission initially to really "get" the BM/BH process?  Also, how can someone tell if they are having a genuine experience?  It seems to me that the capacity for self-deception when working alone (or with other people who've not had direct transmission) would be enormous.  What is the importance and relevance of interpersonal interaction in doing this kind of work?

     

    I'd be happy to share my perspective on this.  I'm not an expert on the BM process, but have had the privilege to participate live with both Genpo Roshi and Diane many times.  So here goes.

    How effective is a 'DVD transmission'?  I would say that there's certainly more transmission power at a live, in person event.  Doing it live, you can actually feel the energy from the teacher and the other participants.  The container created in that 'we' space can certainly be conducive to accessing BM.  Think of the difference between watching a video of an amazing concert vs. being there live.  You can still appreciate the music through the TV, but it's not the same as being there in the audience. 

    At the same time, remember this process is still a finger pointing at the moon... it's not the moon.  BM/BH is who we are.  It's not necessary to receive any transmission to rest as that.  Of course, it's not so easy, and that's why we engage in practice.  Genpo brilliantly developed this process to engage the mind (instead of trying to overcome it), and relax it into letting what already IS just BE.  I believe that a person can follow this process very effectively through DVD or live.  Active participation is probably a more important factor than live or not live.  In fact, Eddie K. told me that he had a total break through experience from listening to the IN audio of Roshi doing it.  And yes, as in most things, it depends on the individual.  Some may need to experience it live, while others have powerful experiences on their own.

    Also, how can someone tell if they are having a genuine experience?  That's a good question.  What voice is asking whether or not the experience is genuine?   How do you know if any experience you are having is genuine?  From the voice of BM, genuine and not genuine are two bubbles floating by in the stream.  From the voice of BM, is there anything that is not you?  Is there any experience that you do not include?

    What is the importance and relevance of interpersonal interaction in doing this kind of work?  I guess it depends on what you mean by work.  If the work is to open to our true nature, then it can certainly be experienced alone.  But typically it takes a community to practice with if we aspire to live from this place.  Because you are right, it's very easy to deceive ourselves.  I'm enlightened, it's the asshole that pissed me off who isn't!  Stop, time for 3-2-1... Smile [:)]

    Always already,

    Huy

     

     

     

     


    Huy Lam
    Chief Development Officer
    Integral Institute
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  •  05-05-2007, 7:17 AM 22311 in reply to 22291

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    Hey Liz ,  you gots' that one all wrooong! this , forum username trollybabe , or was it trollett? prob. both! too boring to talk to one name onlyStick out tongue [:P].....Yah, she  used to sit under the tree with Healing Crystal Cluster - from the local quary. Local is best , much more powerful I read.Stick out tongue [:P]

    As for Huy getting Helene'd? lol .. he's way lucky , back in the day I would have talked about peeling onions before loging in, or somethingBig Smile [:D] Bad attention is better than no-attention at all,  no?

    I do like  his 321 jive-spile  on the daugther's  bed-time routine. Sometimes I think kids fuss at bed time because they are just not tired enough, no? The in-doors mostly months the kids don't burn as much energy during the day, our solution was to watch them do the "jumping beens" routine... meaning? hopping the lenght of the room back and forth, back and forth ...and they did it with gleeeeeeeeeAngel [A]Angel [A]  

    At any rate she's bowing attahere...sigh...Wouldn't be surprised if Huy has a button-feature which can block from showing any black sheeps on his thread-topic.

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  •  05-05-2007, 8:54 AM 22313 in reply to 22311

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    Helene:

    Hey Liz ,  you gots' that one all wrooong! this , forum username trollybabe , or was it trollett? prob. both! too boring to talk to one name onlyStick out tongue [:P].....Yah, she  used to sit under the tree with Healing Crystal Cluster - from the local quary. Local is best , much more powerful I read.Stick out tongue [:P]

    As for Huy getting Helene'd? lol .. he's way lucky , back in the day I would have talked about peeling onions before loging in, or somethingBig Smile [:D] Bad attention is better than no-attention at all,  no?

    I do like  his 321 jive-spile  on the daugther's  bed-time routine. Sometimes I think kids fuss at bed time because they are just not tired enough, no? The in-doors mostly months the kids don't burn as much energy during the day, our solution was to watch them do the "jumping beens" routine... meaning? hopping the lenght of the room back and forth, back and forth ...and they did it with gleeeeeeeeeAngel [A]Angel [A]  

    At any rate she's bowing attahere...sigh...Wouldn't be surprised if Huy has a button-feature which can block from showing any black sheeps on his thread-topic.



    Ah, Helen dear, you really do know what you're doing here, don't you?  Despite your highly toxic effect on the local wespace I have to admit I find you rather endearing at times - it was quite a disappointment that you spurned the Esalen meetup at the last minute.  I'd love to know what you're like in person.

    As for your forum presence, it's funny - you're like a test of whoever is ultimately in charge of this place at a given time (or maybe of the wespace as a whole, in some sense).  They keep failing the test, too.  Remarkable.  I guess by now all I can do is stop periodically to go, "gosh, wow" and then get on with my life.

    love, metta, and baby bunnies,
    arthur

    p.s. Huy, thanks for your great response; I'll have more to comment and ask later today.

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  •  05-06-2007, 1:12 PM 22386 in reply to 22313

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    Helene:

    Hey Arthur,

    My toxic effect on the local wespace has been sowow .  I backed out of the Esalen meetup at the last minute? that''s a laugh and a half, if you ask me. And what exactly would I do there? What am I like in person? I think I'm goshwaaaay niceStick out tongue [:P]  



    Sorry, I'm not really familiar with the term "sowow" - could you elaborate on that?

    Perhaps I misunderstood about Esalen - Ryan/mcenter, the organizer of that meetup, indicated that you were quite interested then changed your mind at the last minute.

    Had you been there, you would presumably have done what the rest of the Multiplexians who showed up did - spent a lot of time in hottubs and enjoying the beautiful grounds and fine food there, engaging in wild and crazy conversations.  Plus I was hoping you'd do some reiki on me.  Hmm [^o)]

    My point in bringing it up was simply to demonstrate a point that seems to elude people a lot of the time, that how I feel about the effect of your, um, contributions to the viability of this place as an "integral" forum is entirely separate from my considerations of your feelings and worth as a human/spiritual/etc. being.  Anyway that's just one piece of a very big, very dysfunctional forum pie IMO.

    In any case everybody - including me - has long since been bored into a coma and beyond by this subject, so in conclusion: blah blah blah.

    spiral out,
    arthur

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  •  05-08-2007, 8:19 AM 22495 in reply to 22386

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    Hey Artur,

    Guess I've been preocupied elsewhere , hence my now-here scribble-response. Sowow? meaning  -'so wow! - better? Sowow,  if my familly and friends ever saw the 'banishing helene' thread , they would weep. Hows' that?

    Funny you should mention me and 'other Mulitplexians' chilling 'round in hot-tubs .. as if I'm a member or something...I just scrible-share on Integral Naked. Not like I wanted to be here to start with. "I have nothing to say!" - was my sentiment, when another forum member coaxed to check this one out.

    Checking out Californias' coastal living?  I need new towels , guess it's time to get a job.

     

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  •  06-14-2007, 4:38 PM 24536 in reply to 22230

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    Jeffrey,

    I know that this isn't exactly a recent post but I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed your post. I am expecting my ILP kit to arrive any day now. If I get half as much out of my experience as you have, I'm in for some excitement.

    I don't know how frequently you check the forum but I was wondering if you would post an update. How have things been going since you posted about your initial experiences with the ILP Starter Kit?

    Cheers,
    Scott


    Personal Philosophy: Practice Happiness
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  •  06-16-2007, 11:54 AM 24598 in reply to 24536

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    Hi Scott,

    I'd love to give an update.  Thanks for asking.

     

    One thing that I am excited about and having fun with is a hand drumming class that I teach.  I've been trying to incorporate the teachings on 3 bodies.  Most people that come to the class don't seem that interested in becoming accomplished hand drummers but are more interested in relaxing into a good groove for awhile.  So, the gross body is our flesh and bone body combined with the hand drum.  The subtle body is the energy we are putting forth to animate the gross body and move the arms and hands and it is also the body that is resonating with the rhythms and melodies and companionship.  The causal body is the space that allows all of this to take place and the space into which the sounds and all other forms disappear. 

    Having these teachings to reflect on together is very helpful.  Here are some examples:

    -many people are highly critical and self-conscious of the sounds they are producing on the drum.  This is felt as a disturbance and it can be felt by the individual as well as the group.  The way I deal with it now is to point out that it is the gross body that is responsible for making the appropriate sounds and that the gross body must be trained.  This is totally possible and anyone who wants to put in the time can do it.  However, if a person is mainly interested in exercising, celebrating and dancing with the subtle body groove that playing a rhythm can invoke, then perfect technique is not absolutely necessary.  You have to have a little bit of facility but not much.  This makes sense to people and works pretty well but then there is the fact that self-criticism is an old old habit that will continue to arise.  There are 2 things that you can do with that kind of energy when it comes up.  You can just mix it with the rest of the energy going on and pour it into the drum and space through your body or you can just let it go into space(causal body) along with all else.  The causal body allows for any and everything to arise completely impartially.  That space couldn't care less, in the very best sense, and that space is way bigger then your little habitual complaint about yourself.  You can identify with the knot of complaint or the release of space.  Some people have never heard anything like this.  

    I've also used the metaphor that I read about in one of David Deida's books.  He likens the body and its energy to a water hose and that our body can have kinks in it that disallow the full flow of energy.  I think am starting to sense this in people as they are playing and am finding ways to work with it.  It's like drum yoga!  Anyways, since I've started doing this, the group has really come alive and they have commented on the difference.  One thing that I am worried about is the fact that I am not a certified teacher of any of this stuff.  I am just a practicioner myself and I don't want to either mislead or misguide anyone.  I make it clear to everyone that this is the case but if I am presenting it then I am still responsible to some extent.  Another thing I am worried about is that a lot of the people who come to the class are pretty seriously green(vmeme).  This scares me a little bit because they are really into wicca and the secret and that kind of thing and  so I worry that they will just nod and smile at whatever "mystical" stuff comes out of my mouth without using their own critical intelligence. 

     

    My son and I are at the library today(I don't have a home computer) and he has just informed me that it is time to go.  There is more to be said about this drumming thing and how the integral model has really made it more fun and meaningful but that can wait. 

    Echoing the sentiment of a recent poster whose name I can't remember, I really appreciate the chance to talk about all things integral with such a great and competent community.  I feel like I can communicate on all cylinders, if you know what I mean.

    So, thank you very much.

    Warmly,

    Jeffrey   

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  •  07-07-2007, 9:06 AM 25389 in reply to 22070

    • blueoak is not online. Last active: 09-22-2007, 2:09 PM blueoak
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    Hello--We've had the starter kit for a little while, and we have especially enjoyed Big Mind and the Shadow Module.   For us, Big Mind was worth the price of the kit.  But some of the other material was not as interesting since we already have deep practices, SD and AQAL in place.  Maybe someday as this work evolves, someone could create an online integral practice questionaire that would help people make links to the missing parts of their practices or life works and connect them to the material available to help them take the next step. A lifetime custom practice kit maker. You're almost there with the Multiplex, etc, but you need an organizing overlay so that people can reality check about what they need to fill in their blanks.  This is especially true for those of us who live far away from other people who are into Integral work.

    Nevertheless the kit is still useful to me as an educator, and I have already tried integrating some of the AQAL ideas in my work with high school students with autism.  This is where I could use some contacts and help.  I would like to develop some of my intuitions and ideas about possibilities for integral education.  I would love to set up a research project of some sort in my classroom this fall, incorporating integral ideas into my teaching more.  My mind is popping with ideas and possibilities in other areas as well--   However when I log onto your websites, I find it hard to find a pathway to real in-depth discussion or project creation.  How do I get in touch with others who have similar interests whom I can work with to develop meaningful integral projects? 
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  •  07-15-2007, 9:35 PM 25825 in reply to 24598

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    Thank you Jeffrey for your explanation on how do deal with the self criticism.  The way you write about it I found it very valueable. Thanks again for the contribution.
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  •  07-16-2007, 6:40 AM 25841 in reply to 25389

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    Jeffrey, very useful your comment.                                   

    blueoak, how I'd like knowing more about your use of students with autism.  Could you tell us more on that?  In another thread for sure Smile [:)]  Or with e-mail also.

    Hope you'll both continue to participate in this forum. 

    Martine

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  •  07-29-2007, 9:01 PM 26574 in reply to 22070

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    Hi Huy, I just discovered this forum and I wanted to tell you that your 3 body workout was my favourite part of the ILP.  I loved it and had my beginning ILP practice mapped out pretty well; then every thing just broke loose in my life.  Part of the breaking loose was a dawning awareness of some of the circumstances of my life which i would rather not have become aware of; but in retrospect consciousness trumps unconsciosness so i just have to deal with it! 

     Maybe i am just going mad.  It is painful, because not all the amazing insights i seem to be getting are necessarily good, but you know, i cant imagine life without the work being done by Integral and others in the area of furthering consciousness.

    I was wondering if the 3 body workout had anything to do with this expansion of awareness, or if it just happened to be a coincidence that i was noticing things around me that i usually would just stuff out of my mind.  Also, things appear to me to happen in a more mechanistic than random manner, if that makes any sense.

    lizzie

       

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  •  07-31-2007, 11:39 AM 26664 in reply to 22070

    • CicerchiDA is not online. Last active: 07-31-2007, 11:57 AM CicerchiDA
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    I've been explicitly using the ILP starter kit for about 2 months...

    Favorite aspects:  The 3 body practice (Kata) is exactly what I've been looking for for years.  I've been struggling with so many different practices, including yoga, qi gong, and weight lifting, over the years and wanted a single practice that incorporates all of that without the use of external weights.  The reason is because I will be in the Peace Corps in Peru for the next two years (until nov. 2009) and I wanted a practice that goes with me!  I also like the 1 minute module because I have used it on trips when there's limited space or time.

    Benefits
    +I have noticed an increased ability to feel into my chronic joint pain and aching, instead of wallowing in or becoming overwhelmed by it.   Although my chronic pain has still been a source of frustration and dis-ease for me.

    +I feel like I've been able to more easily 'click' into different mental modes, whether it's "lots-to-do focus" or "relaxed conversation" or reading or excercise, I feel like I can more easily change between those modes of being in any given circumstance.

    +I should say that my big push is on the MIND modules (i'm reading lots of books and just finished Integral Spirituality).  I noticed that I've been able to "get it" more than I used to.  I seem to be reading better and more thoroughly understanding it than I used to.

    Struggles:
    ~For the spirit module, I'm using Holosync, (and in a few months I will turn to TM) so perhaps what I'm about to say is normal... but I've found it more difficult than it used to be to get into that "feeling of being" or the "ISness".  Those ISness meditations don't seem to affect me a whole lot, but that might have to do with the temporary "training through overwhelm" nature of Holosync.  I also tend to dose off during meditation, which leads me to find it hard to meditate (also, perhaps due to Holosync).  and that leads me too...

    --I've been finding it hard to get into a good sleep pattern.  Either I can't fall asleep or I wake up too early.  Often it is due to physical pain but it's also due to my mind spinning.  This could be simply an adjustment because I've been doing some intense ILP stuff.  I've found a natural sleep aid to help smooth things over, and it's seemed to work, although I don't intend to do this a lot.

    --While I still haven't mastered the core practices, I'm kind of bummed that there aren't any Gold Star Auxiliary practices.  I know it's a starter kit, so there you go. 

    Future improvements:
    *Perhaps in the future there can be an online access to Auxiliary practices, and maybe even website links to some of the non-Gold star CORE modules... for example, there can be a link to a Qi Gong website, or a certain ILP approved diet website, or a Zen training center.  Having said this, I just realized that it may take away from the already existing Integral Training, but some of the items on the ILP matrix I've never even heard of. . . So it would be helpful to have some idea.

    Overall, I'm pretty happy with the ILP starter kit.  When I first opened it and skimmed through it, I was a little bummed, thinking it hadn't met my expectations.  But when I actually went through everything, I came to realize that it certainly had a lot to grasp, and I'm very happy with it. 

    Thanks Huy and Integral Institute!

    Sincerely,

    David

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  •  08-01-2007, 10:16 AM 26709 in reply to 26574

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    Hi Lizzie,

    Thanks for your feedback.  I am of course very happy to hear that you are enjoying the Kit and getting a lot from my favorite part as well - the 3 body workout!  Smile [:)] 

    I was wondering if the 3 body workout had anything to do with this expansion of awareness, or if it just happened to be a coincidence that i was noticing things around me that i usually would just stuff out of my mind.  Also, things appear to me to happen in a more mechanistic than random manner, if that makes any sense.

    First, I want to say that it's very rewarding hearing about your experience.  We develop the Kit to help people create and deepen their practices, so that they can live a more conscious and integral life.  So when I hear how people are actually using it and growing, it's very encouraging.  Thanks for sharing!

    As to your question, I would guess that the 3 body workout does indeed have something to do with your expansion of awareness.  We designed this practice to access all 3 bodies, cultivate more energy, strengthen the muscles and increase flexibility.  But probably the primary practice of the workout is opening your awareness to what is arising in the present moment.  And the path is to start with what's most fundamental - noticing what's happening with our breathing, feeling our bodies, observing our thoughts and emotions.  Noticing what IS right now.  Not what we want or what we think we should be feeling, but what actually is.  I believe that our awareness naturally expands as we develop our ability to be radically present to all aspects of our being.

    If you are engaging with the other 3 modules as well, I would guess that it's the combination of your experiences in all of these practices that has been the catalyst for your opening.  And it does make sense that things appear to be happening in a more "mechanistic than random manner".  From this, I take it that you are saying you have a much better understanding of why things are the way they are in your life and in the world around you? 

    Everything in life just happens.  If it is happening for some reason or is just random depends on our perspective.  As we expand our ability to include more perspectives, life just seems to make a lot more sense, doesn't it?  :-)

    Blessings on your continuing ILP journey.  Let us know how it goes!

    Huy

       

     


    Huy Lam
    Chief Development Officer
    Integral Institute
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  •  08-01-2007, 10:44 AM 26710 in reply to 26664

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    Hi David,

    Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences with the Kit and give us your feedback.  It's always useful to hear what's working well for people, and what there is to improve. 

    I'm happy to hear that you find the 3-body work out so useful.  It certainly seems like it was designed specifically for you, because yoga, qi gong and weight lifting were the primary practices that influenced me in creating it!  I currently still engage in all 3 of these practices each week - gym twice a week, yoga twice a week, and qi gong almost every day. 

    And even though I take each of these practices much deeper, I feel that the 3-body work out does a nice job of incorporating many of the core principles from these practices.  I am always interested in how to take it to the next level though.  Do you have any feedback on what you'd like to see in a level 2 3-body work out?

    Regarding your comment on Auxiliary practices, we hear you.  When we were creating the Kit, we actually had to go through an intense process to determine what to include, and what to leave out.  As you might imagine, there were many of us that were very enthusiastic about adding all different kinds of practices.  But as we considered the trade-offs, we decided to stick with the 4 core modules for this first Kit, to really establish a sold foundation that other practices can be built upon.

    I hear you on providing more online resources for all of the practices.  We're working on it...

    In the meantime, since you've practiced qi gong, here's a link to the practice that I'm currently doing:  http://jingui.com/.  This is where I got the body patting exercise from.  I've tried several qi gong practices over the years, and this is by far the most effective and transformational.  This practice develops your entire energetic body to a very high level of function, and the results are very palpable.  In fact, if I had to choose just one practice to do right now, it would be this one.

    Good luck keeping up your practice in the Peace Corps, and let us know how it's going when you get the chance!

    Huy 

     


    Huy Lam
    Chief Development Officer
    Integral Institute
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