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Dead Forever?

Last post 10-13-2007, 10:04 AM by tamgoddess. 279 replies.
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  •  05-22-2007, 12:10 PM 23143 in reply to 23093

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Dear Fellow Members:   I will address this Post to Balder's # and I would like to respond to all of you individually.   I am humbled and now know why I do love what is going on here and feel so grateful to be a part of a group like all of you I have connected with at Integral.  My deepest  bow as Nomali would say.

    I recentely re-listened to "Ken Wilber's Basic Moral Intuition" on Kosmic Consciousness   A program of about ten tapes that everyone should own.  Any way that we can be listening, seeing, and hearing learners helps in our understanding and I think and feel that I have been influenced by hearing this so recently.  I do repeat it I would say at least 4 times a year as I use some and all of it in a group  - or just parts of a tape.

    If you writers and thinkers who I admire would listen or maybe it can be played on ISC as some sort of project for us at this time as a "WE" Place with many valuable prospectives.  Sort of a study group getting more detailed in order to walk our walk.

     

    It seems to me that the BMI applies perfectly here and each one  of us will know more exactly what they must do in order to bring the care that I believe we all have to what we love.  And I will confess that in my own life I have had to put it to work because of my daughter who is an addict.  This sickness will kill off a whole generation eventually.  She felt sleepy when she drank so she started crack 20 yrs ago when people did not know what that would become.  She wanted to stay awake for the  party.   We are now all (right now) listening to This tape and are finding how we must know that the choices are going have to be from the highest level of gravity in order to do anything at all.  The story is too long for now.  She is the reason that we are all listening to the tape.  That is big in itself.   If this is not clear after you listen if you can, then perhaps a thread will be in order.  I urge you to buy this set if you do not have it for use in teaching others.

    Right now I have to tend to several things when  I would much rather stay with you and find some comfort for myself.  There are times when I see how much of that you all share and it is something that we must not lose.  You are fortunate that I cannot write any more at this time.  I do tend to ramble.  My love to all of us.   Pattye  PS

    Balder   I do see things like the 4 Zeros and the most views and most responses

    to something that may already be dead and I wonder who has had too many beers. I do not feel I have been here long enough so I do not speak.  And I know there are a lot of changes going on with new tech stuff at this time.   Love PTG

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  •  05-22-2007, 1:10 PM 23145 in reply to 23093

    Re: Dead Forever?

    To me, the quietude is not so bad and I am just grateful to tune in here and see that IN is still going.

    For me, getting my practice going in the face of daunting odds, is what keeps me from posting alot.  But I still find this forum comforting. 

    I wonder how I can help, and for now, feel that any small financial support through membership, buying books and tapes and hopefully one day attending a workshop is all I can do at the present.

    Getting a turquoise government going and still  allowing the lower stages to develop  without having them completely destroy those who are trying to reach higher is  a big question on my mind and one i am living through at present, so it is exciting to see how this will develop and i am right there ready to do the work needed, but just dont know what i can contribute.  Maybe, the above will suffice for now.   

    Anyway, i think it has its own pace and unfolding.

     

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  •  05-22-2007, 6:10 PM 23155 in reply to 23126

    Re: Dead Forever?

    balder:
    This post surprised me, Arthur.  I've considered you among the primary complainers and grousers here!  Poking your head in to advertise your pod and remark on how things still don't work very well here.  If you've decided to change tactics, I commend you for that, and I am joining you in the "no more complaining" club.


    I can't understand why you're surprised, Balder. The one and only thing he consistently complained about is over and done with. Why would he still be complaining? This was great news and a real step in the right direction. I don't think you understood his motivations if you think he was just doing it to be spiteful. We complained because we cared, not because we hated anyone or were just trying to make trouble.



    But I tempt fate by even bringing it up. I'm also done complaining...if they continue on the same path.

    Liz

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  •  05-22-2007, 7:18 PM 23158 in reply to 23155

    Re: Dead Forever?

    No, Liz, I don't think he was just doing it to be hateful.  I was just surprised that he characterized this present discussion as "rehashing old battles," when that isn't what was taking place here, and that he seemed to be talking as if he was not implicated in the behavior that Ambo and Pattye were criticizing.  But it doesn't matter.  I agree with his overall attitude: a good step has been made by the moderators of this forum, and for those of us who still visit here and pay to be here, let's contribute positively when we do.  (I've started a handful of threads, by the way, in recent weeks.  Mostly on the ISC forums.  But they're about as quiet as these boards have been in general).


    May the boundless knowledge that time presents and space allows illuminate the native perspectives of your original face.

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  •  05-22-2007, 7:28 PM 23159 in reply to 23093

    Re: Dead Forever?

    I love all the perspectives brought up here, I was happily surprised, all this talk of death put me in a great mood.

     "Which is to say, it's not just that the most activity is from 2 posts, then 1 post but that then the lonely system starts pulling up names at random (obviously) for their monumental activity of 0 posts! in order to make a "top ten" of "most activity."


    That is pretty damn funny!!! …Or the fact that this happens to be the most active thread on here. Strangely enough, I actually feel good about it. It is like when an old forest gets burned down and healthy new growth emerges. I am just really excited that a new forest gets to emerge, not because it wasn't great before or this had to happen, but it did. Now new voices that may have gotten lost in the old forest can find a place with endless potential, and if a few old trees survive from days past, all the better. Someone starting a fire and "killing" the forum may seem sad or tragic and it is, but sometimes it is healthy. Zaadz may die too someday, though right now it is flourishing. I just think it is all fabulous.

    Hehe sorry for the forest metaphors and overly positive attitude. Big Smile [:D]

    Peace (and Justice)

    ~Lindsey

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  •  05-22-2007, 7:47 PM 23160 in reply to 23159

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Attachment: smokey.jpg
    lindsey:

    I love all the perspectives brought up here, I was happily surprised, all this talk of death put me in a great mood.

     "Which is to say, it's not just that the most activity is from 2 posts, then 1 post but that then the lonely system starts pulling up names at random (obviously) for their monumental activity of 0 posts! in order to make a "top ten" of "most activity."


    That is pretty damn funny!!! …Or the fact that this happens to be the most active thread on here. Strangely enough, I actually feel good about it. It is like when an old forest gets burned down and healthy new growth emerges. I am just really excited that a new forest gets to emerge, not because it wasn't great before or this had to happen, but it did. Now new voices that may have gotten lost in the old forest can find a place with endless potential, and if a few old trees survive from days past, all the better. Someone starting a fire and "killing" the forum may seem sad or tragic and it is, but sometimes it is healthy. Zaadz may die too someday, though right now it is flourishing. I just think it is all fabulous.

    Hehe sorry for the forest metaphors and overly positive attitude. Big Smile [:D]

    Peace (and Justice)

    ~Lindsey

    Lindsey, more or less, this is the kind of response I was hoping for!Big Smile [:D]

    Especially -That is pretty damn funny!!! …Or the fact that this happens to be the most active thread on here. Strangely enough, I actually feel good about it. It is like when an old forest gets burned down and healthy new growth emerges.

    Perhaps at a risk, I's just hoping maybe I's maybe be able to start a new warm campfire.

     



    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  05-22-2007, 8:39 PM 23165 in reply to 23160

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Attachment: New Growth.jpg
    .

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  •  05-22-2007, 8:43 PM 23166 in reply to 23159

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Exactly, Lindsey! Great metaphor, indeed. this, too, shall pass.

    (Shhhh. Whenever someone at I-I really starts to understand the forum, they get fired or quit. Knock on wood, now!!)

    Liz



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  •  05-22-2007, 9:21 PM 23169 in reply to 23166

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Haha, understand the forum… that is a big concept… not sure I can ever understand The Forum, but I am trying. 

    I'm not getting fired though, unless I fire myself. (don't tell anyone I know this, but I-I needs me. They may not realize it explicitly, but they know it in their hearts Stick out tongue [:P]). I won’t quit either, as I am not ready yet... and honestly, there is much love for my job.

    ~L
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  •  05-23-2007, 2:02 AM 23181 in reply to 23169

    Re: Dead Forever?

    ''

    Phoenix Rising Higher
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  •  05-23-2007, 2:57 AM 23182 in reply to 23140

    Re: Dead Forever?


    arthur,

    i'm honestly not trying to bore you, nor to irritate you. i don't understand what's going on here myself, hence the question, which led me to ken's notions of the emergent and the emergent repressed unconscious, to jonah's syndrome and ken's answer to your concall question. i'd very much like to explore this with you, but only if you're willing.

    ralph

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  •  05-23-2007, 8:27 AM 23195 in reply to 23181

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Hi Jess - I think your "perhaps just let it all crumble away into dust" resonates with the thread title of Dead Forever. I'm also aware of your taken name and the rising-from-the-ashes possibility. Every week or two, I have a need for rising from the ashes of my own fallen self esteem and enthusiasm/hope/faith for the forum, but that has happened with any forum I've been a part of since 1999.

    I'm guessing that often the impetus has come from a strong sense of dislike for certain "games" (a la Dmitri's Eric Berne's reference), certain voices (maybe even a "chemistry" thing beyond the garden variety judgment thing that I do), an inner frenetic energy feel of the activity that used to be here, anger around the teachings or my projected sense of Ken - well it's all projected I suppose. Sometimes the urge to drop out seems to arise more immediately out of my own inner capacity to relate or connect, my own  limited and/or disheveled-feeling self-esteem, my deep feeling of the-and-my blah, blah, blah, of futility of this endeavor, and futility of any endeavor. Occasionally, if I say something that is pointed, controversial, or likely to ruffle in-group members' feathers, or if I say something that is ill-considered on my part, spontaneous and disorganized, or reflecting dubiously on my self or some aspect of my self that I hold precious, or if my inner childhood geek/nerd/kook/loser fears are awoken I feel fear or shame and I want to drop out. Most or all of what I've mentioned have to do with me and how I react and navigate myself.

    I did drop out from participation and much reading of this place because some of the judgments and feelings got too strong.

    One thing maybe going in my favor is that my tenacity can rise me from the ashes, and my apparent intermittently activated committment for transparency, for burning my own bridges to avoidance and escape, are tenacious. I suspect that there are important things for me to learn in groups and forums and I too have a major slice of intellectual snobbery that I think isn't alien to this forum. I am having to learn so much to stay here. In increments I am understanding more and sometimes appreciatng more of the cognitively favored approach of Ken and forum members. Sometimes however I feel this cognition as very irritating and pretentious, and that's partly why I didn't participate in II/zaadz. I think that in the main, I appreciated the forum here more after the exodus. It felt less frenetic, gamey, self-important, and other judgements. It could be that the forum has felt at times too chaotic for the narrow band of my sensibilities. And I am accepting more of reality these days, including my own great limitations and flaws, and, again my tenacity for rising from my own burnings apparently are not insubstantial.

    Lately I've been wondering about and experimenting with being a little more co-creative, perhaps, pro-active or active rather than reactive.

    So, Jessica, relating back to you now, I'm glad that you phoenix on up from ashes, again and again as you feel the impulse to do so.

    Best of luck with all of your sticks that are in the fire. Smiles. Ambo

    Ambo Suno
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  •  05-24-2007, 2:21 PM 23246 in reply to 23140

    Re: Dead Forever?

    lol, don't suppose those numbers have improved at all with the banning of individuals who actually made posts, all be it, off topic, but interesting still.  How far will the banning go I wonder?  Will the banning extend into post deleting? (This is a slippery slope argument, by the way.)  Will it get to the point that all the participants say (0)?  Or even if they said (100), but were promptly banned and then deleted?  It all is wierdly connected to 1984 and Ferenheit 41? (Not sure on that title, but it was a good book and movie.)  O yes and New World Order, as well. "In Ford We Trust" (This may appear to be off topic, but really it is geared towards topic by
    casolarphoenix (2)...
    maybe it will be (3) or (4) by the days end.

    eros y agape
    jess

    Phoenix Rising Higher
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  •  05-24-2007, 6:19 PM 23261 in reply to 23246

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Hey there Jess--i can see that you are understandably upset about our decision to remove Helene from the forum, it was not an easy decision to make and i've always been concerned about the precedent banning her might set with the forum community.  This was actually the primary reason that it took so long to ban her in the first place: it was my own desire to be as inclusive as possible, as well as to find a way to work through the problem with Helene rather than kicking her off outright.  It was my hesitation which, in the end, ended up driving our most active members out of this forum and into Zaadz, which is the real reason this place has been somewhat of a ghost town lately.

    And just as i take personal responsibility for not banning Helene when i was originally asked, so do i take responsibility for banning her now.  It was, in the end, my decision, which was then executed by Member Services.  I am in the unfortunate position of being accountable to a) Helene detractors, b) Helene sympathizers, and c) the community as a whole.  After considering all necessary perspectives, i made a decision which i felt most closely aligns with option c.

    If you would like me to rehash all the reasons why i made this decision, i can do so for you.  But it's really nothing most people don't already know--we have tried for months to work with Helene, asking her to keep her posts relavant to the threads, banishing her to the Seventh Circle when she refused to do this, letting her back in only when she assured us she would change her behavior, and then watching as she did the same exact thing all over again.  It has been an extremely frustrating and circular process, and at some point the hammer simply had to drop.  Too much energy has been squandored on both the administrative side and (more importantly) the community, because of a single disruptive person--sweet as she certainly was.  Please recall that, until recently, this forum's most popular thread EVER was titled "Banish Helene to the Seventh Circle, please" and became a major drain for the entire forum culture--i weep to think of all the beautiful posts that could-have-been, if only we hadn't spent so much time eclipsed by such an unhealthy energetic fixation as the Helene controversy.  Again, my responsibility, and if any of you need someone to be angry with for any of this--from whatever direction--i am your guy.

    Anyway, returning to my initial concern, which was about the precedent this sets for the community, a concern which obviously echoes through your heart as well, as evidenced by the somewhat dystopia-tinged terminology of your last post.  To be clear, here are the facts:

    -Helene was the third person in Integral Institute history to be banned. 
      a) The first was Pi, who was relentlessly harassing some of our forum members, going so far as to post extremely personal information about one member in particular.  We've never had to ban anyone before, so we tried our best to reconcile the problem, going so far as to arrange mediation sessions between Pi and the member involved, moderated by Diane Hamilton, of all people.
      b) The second was Girard, who became verbally abusive to forum members, to Nomali, and to myself.  This wasn't as difficult a decision to make; no one messes with my Nomali =)

    -No one's posts have ever been deleted due to banning, nor will they.  The slope is really not very slippery at all.  Only duplicate posts and those flagged by the abuse button are removed, and always with the author being notified.

    -Banishment, like war, is something we consider to be an absolute last resort, after all diplomatic attempts have been exhausted.  Therefore, also like war, it is an option we will always keep on the table.

    -This is an incusive community, as cliquey as it might sometimes get.  The tenet is, after all, "transcend and include"--but there is no real "transclusion" without the simultaneous need to "negate and preserve".  This is not a flat, green, one-size-fits-all inclusivity, to the detriment of the whole.  We do not include Hitler.  (Something inside me just laughed at the thought of even comparing Helene to Hitler =) 

    The point is, just like the U.S. Constitution, everyone has the right to be whoever they want to be--they just can't behave any way they want!  As this is an intentional community of people, all more or less coming from a similar altitude, there is a collective code of conduct which actually emerges from the community itself and is then institutionalized/enforced by us.  And it is actually a LOT "softer" than that last sentence might indicate, what with all the mentions of codes, institutions, and enforcement  =)  For most, this ethic is unspoken, just a natural part of the discourse.  For others, it needs to be spelled out.  We are happy to spell it out, we are happy to help people understand it, we are happy to work with people as they slowly internalize the overall ethics of integral communication.  But we can't just look the other way when this ethic is so outright transgressed, over and over again.

    So there it is--i sincerely hope all of this helps in some way.

    I love you all.
    Corey



    __________________________

    Corey W. deVos (dj rekluse)
    Brand Manager, Integral Naked
    Audio Manager, Integral Institute
    Managing Editor, KenWilber.com
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  •  05-25-2007, 9:02 AM 23292 in reply to 23261

    Re: Dead Forever?

    halleluah !

     

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