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Integral Life Portal: Real Name Usage

Last post 07-24-2007, 11:18 PM by pattye. 37 replies.
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  •  07-19-2007, 10:49 PM 26078 in reply to 26039

    • JulieSmith is not online. Last active: 04-12-2008, 6:51 PM JulieSmith
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    Re: Integral Life Portal: Real Name Usage

    Hi Don ~

    I'm with you, completely, in your thinking about how we really get to know people in an online community (and that has very little to do with the name they use), and I'm also right there with you in your observation that I, We and It arise together co-creatively so that a change in one will reverberate through the others.

    I really do part ways on this idea that an online forum is like any other community. I do not experience them that way at all. Both you and Timelody mentioned some important differences a few posts ago (sorry dear person sometimes known as Timelody, I'm remembering your digital name and not your signature!)

    In some ways I find the online community to be quite liberating and exhilarting because we're contending with far fewer of those social cues that result in us making so many assumptions about each other. In other ways, I find the online community much more difficult because I have a tendency to reveal more about my thinking in these places than I do in face-to-face conversations, and then I end up feeling anxious about who has read my words and how they will be received, and generally there is very little feedback. This is very different from how I experience face-to-face communication.

    So for me online communities are significantly different than face-to-face communities. I spend time here in the hopes that I will connect with other people in ways that enrich all of us. I'm comfortable with the name I use here, and I would like others to feel comfortable with theirs. The easiest way to accomplish that simple goal is to let people decide for themselves what name they will use.

    I'm also looking forward to pelle's response to your last question. And I really am still quite curious about how we could structure this entire conversation in the integral model. I've done a fair amount of reading, but very little actual practice with independent integral thinking. It would be quite helpful to me if someone who is more adept at this were willing to take a stab at describing the concern that has been raised from an integral perspective and then talk about how we would most effectively approach resolving the concern, again using the integral model. Is anyone doing this kind of thing yet?

    Julie

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  •  07-20-2007, 4:44 AM 26089 in reply to 26075

    Re: Integral Life Portal: Real Name Usage

    donwingate:

    pelleB:
    I don't think displaying full names is the way to go, actually I think it would be very detrimental to the online community.

    Pelle, Would you please tell us why you think showing full names would be so detrimental to the online community?




    Sure.

    This is a worldwide community, and Robb even wrote above: It is vital to understand that Integral Life is being formed to be a real, vibrant, meaningful community of integral people worldwide.

    Worldwide means that everyone doesn't live in North America or Western Europe, and stating you full real name in an online community simply might not be possible due to the LR and the prevailing CoG in your country. I don't want to shut out the seeds of Integral that are appearing around the world, especially since I don't feel that the Real Name thing will bring any tangible benefits.

    A second very important point is that a functioning Integral forum almost inevitably will lead to deep communion and sharing at some point. This sharing and communion becomes much easier if you know that your family and friends are protected by your relative anonymity. But you're not anonymous in relationship to I-I, and your handle is well known and invested in viz-a-vis the other forum members. This rhymes well with Ken's original intention for the forums to be a turquoise haven (or at least reserving one forum for that purpose).

    I'm very happy that Robb is asking for feedback here, to avoid fundamental mistakes with the new community. The forums are super-important to I-I; in fact, Ken's conference calls are almost dominated by forum members from the Multiplex and IIZaadz (Timx2, Liz, Adastra, Fairyfaye, ewantownhead, Keith, myself, and more).


    Praying for the success of Integral Life,


    Pelle



    http://integraleurope.org
    http://pelle.gaia.com
    http://malmointegral.blogspot.com
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  •  07-20-2007, 9:51 AM 26097 in reply to 26089

    • JulieSmith is not online. Last active: 04-12-2008, 6:51 PM JulieSmith
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    Re: Integral Life Portal: Real Name Usage

    Beautiful. Thank you, pelle.

    Julie
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  •  07-20-2007, 11:12 AM 26099 in reply to 26077

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    Re: Integral Life Portal: Real Name Usage




    ralphweidner:
    hi all, i think robb has made a good case for real name usage. what, afterall, are the objections?
    brian:
    A real life example is that I work for a military contractor. If I talk of my experimentation with entheogens, I risk losing my job.
    brian, do you mean you signed an agreement not to talk about such things? if so, to talk about this incognito on i-i forums could easily reflect badly on i-i. if not so, then i don't think you should be afraid to exercise your constitutional rights. if we lack such courage, then our rights become meaningless.


    I made the point specific to me and my experience and I will admit that it hurts that you dismiss it.  And since you brought up the question - I assure you that I am indeed in full compliance with my legal, moral and ethical moral obligations to my employer. So let me try again.  Many of us are parts of instituitons, corporate, governmental that have value systems at orange or amber.   It is the a reality that these institutions often  attempt to control the behavior of their members.   This medium (online) is ideal for monitoring to determine if the behavior of an individual member needs "correction."   In more colloquial terms, the internet enables a virtual papparatzi to follow anybody as an agent for the "thought police."  There are real consequences - legal, economic or simple peer pressure to being "out of bounds."  

    Now the relevant question becomes is whether the risk of "violating" the rules of these LR entities is significant as compared to the gains from authentic interaction in a (hopefully) Integral community.  And just as importantly, does the hypothesis (as I have not seen proof) that the use of a real name predisposes the majority to be more authentic than one that does not have that requirement?  To the former question, I would venture there are significant portions of the population that feel that the requirement of using real names would prevent them from engaging.  I speculate that anybody that is interesting to the media, i.e. policticans, entertainers, athletes, people under oppressive government regimes, people who work for image concious companies with amber or orange values, people at risk to be harassed or stalked all might decide the risk of interacting under the name on their driver's license to be unacceptably high.  

    I also find the arguments that my use of my real name fosters authenticity.  There are many good examples on this very list of people using handles other than their names and being exquisitely authentic.  There are examples of people using their real names and not being so.  In my experience in the real world, I have spent intensive weekends calling people by animal totem names and to this day do not know their legal names and know their hearts much better than  most people I've ever encountered.  And what is a real name anyway?  Would this suggestion mean Genpo Roshi can't use that name?  Pelle has convinced me the ability to change a handle in the online community is not a good idea.  But equating real name to higher authenticity... I haven't heard a compelling arguement.  

    So for me, the risk of excluding valuable parts of the population exceed the hypothetical value of fostering authenticity.


    Brian
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  •  07-20-2007, 3:37 PM 26117 in reply to 26099

    Re: Integral Life Portal: Real Name Usage

    hi brian,

    my apologies for interpreting a previous message of yours in a way you didn't intend. did you know that the dod sponsors alot of research in this country? i have no way of knowing, but i thought you were cagily revealing to us that they're looking into adding entheogens to their 21st century arsenal!! (i guess i've worked too many years in research, to the point where i see common human activities as research laden.) so i may need to revise my response. the irony is that, apparently, you also failed to interpret that response in the way i had intended.

    i can understand your concern that amber and orange may feel that you are 'out of bounds' and in need of 'correction', although i would frame it somewhat differently than you do, that is, i would frame it to the best of my understanding of how KW is framing this for us. so here goes:

    for some time now the culture wars have been heating up between amber, orange and an emerging green. and they all have their paparazzi, it seems to me: there is not only an amber and an orange but also a green paparazzi--even a red paparazzi. and they don't just go after each other, but anyone who is not 'them' and gets in the way, including all of us who are attempting to make it to 2nd tier.

    our best defense, it occurs to me, is that we are for all of them. we want to include them--not just green and red, but if we truly want to make it to 2nd tier, also amber and orange--within limits, of course.

    and we can't do it alone--it's all quadrants. we need organizations like i-i. so i do question the morality of burdening it, unfairly it seems to me, with the problems arising from our own behavior. for amber and orange will do what amber and orange have got to do, especially when being attacked by green and red, and they might not distinguish as carefully as i would wish between organizations and the members of those organizations.

    incidentally, genpo's full, real name, as i understand it, is genpo dennis roshi merzel, although not necessarily in that order. i think he's fully earned the right to add genpo roshi to his real name.

    we seem to have locked horns, but others have already spoken about authenticity, so i best let them continue so as to broaden the discussion beyond our narrow perspectives.

    as always, good talking to you,

    ralph

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  •  07-21-2007, 9:20 AM 26152 in reply to 26117

    • JulieSmith is not online. Last active: 04-12-2008, 6:51 PM JulieSmith
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    Re: Integral Life Portal: Real Name Usage

    Deep bow, Brian. Deep bow, Ralph. Thank you.

    I must admit to confusion. Reading each post as it emerged filled me almost to overflowing with a sense of appreciation for the good intention, the beautiful skill and the true meaning expressed. I felt the same response to pelle's earlier post.

    I'm confused because no one else has responded to any of these posts, at least not within the community space. Is my need to express appreciation a reflection of some attribute that you've all transcended? Is there enough relationship already here that you all sense a collective ahhhhh without needing to speak it? Or perhaps I'm simply expressing my strong communal nature, while others are expressing their strong agency?

    While I'm still in appreciation mode, I also really need to echo what others have already said about the opportunity to discuss this issue openly before any formal action was taken. Thank you, Robb. Thank you. Thank you. This all could have been quite horrible if you had started it differently. Thank you.

    And (sorry), I do have a lingering question that keeps bounding into my awareness. It appears that this particular forum is not open to the entire community, but only those who pay for a sponsorship membership or above. I think discussions that concern the entire community should be held in space that is open to the entire community. I'm really quite uncomfortable with the idea of conducting this kind of conversation in a context where only part of the community is included, especially when the criteria for inclusion is financial. I might be convinced that some other criteria might make sense, but I really don't see the benefit of financial criteria for inclusion and exclusion in I-I.

    Julie







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  •  07-21-2007, 9:54 AM 26155 in reply to 26152

    Re: Integral Life Portal: Real Name Usage

    Julie:
    I'm confused because no one else has responded to any of these posts, at least not within the community space. Is my need to express appreciation a reflection of some attribute that you've all transcended? Is there enough relationship already here that you all sense a collective ahhhhh without needing to speak it? Or perhaps I'm simply expressing my strong communal nature, while others are expressing their strong agency?


    I think you're right Julie. A lot of agency is taking place in this forum, for better or worse.
    Let me just say that it has been heart-warming to read your comments and the fact that you are infusing love and appreciation into this space is just what is needed IMO.

    If I haven't said it before: Welcome to the forums!



    Julie:
    It appears that this particular forum is not open to the entire community, but only those who pay for a sponsorship membership or above. I think discussions that concern the entire community should be held in space that is open to the entire community.


    I agree.


    Pelle


    http://integraleurope.org
    http://pelle.gaia.com
    http://malmointegral.blogspot.com
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  •  07-21-2007, 11:52 AM 26160 in reply to 26155

    • JulieSmith is not online. Last active: 04-12-2008, 6:51 PM JulieSmith
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    Re: Integral Life Portal: Real Name Usage

    Thank you, Pelle. :)

    Julie

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  •  07-21-2007, 1:03 PM 26164 in reply to 26160

    Re: Integral Life Portal: Real Name Usage

    Yes!  Thanks for your enthusiasm, appreciation, caring and very considerate thoughtful Posts regarding this issue and  others you have contributed to in such a short time.  Personally, it has been very warming for me, however I may have neglected to say anything.   I am pretty good at that and needed the reminder.  This is a reminder, however of how much time and effort it can take to come to decisions. It is truly govenment in the sunshine but I am reminded of  a statement, maybe in Boomeritis where  greens would have meetings and sit around all day going over every point so that everybody would be happy and be able to get their feelings and perspectives out.

    This just came into my head as I was writing.  I experienced that time in several different ways.  Watching my father, being a teacher at that time and just living thru that as an adult .  There were some funny stories and a lot of good came out of it, but the meetings were long.   Having said that, this thread has been very helpful for me and yet I am glad I do not have to be in charge - of anything.  Still, I like to be free to have an opinion.  How nice.  That was a stream of consciousness, Ithink.  Thanks also to everyone who is contributing so intelligentlly and thoughtfully.  That is one of the best parts for me.   I feel like one of those Border Collies .  Their heads are moving at all times, side to side,  back to front.  They do not miss much.  I do check most everything out and learn a lot.   I am trying very hard to limit that to Integral for now, at least.   It does make my day, since my passion lies here.  Namste to All Pattye   PS  I do think there can be a place for personal-  just a room or two like there is now.  PTG

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  •  07-21-2007, 1:10 PM 26165 in reply to 26152

    Re: Integral Life Portal: Real Name Usage

    hi julie,

    your message reminds me of my early experience as a sponsoring member of i-i.  i've always welcomed the opportunity to participate in the forums and have had difficulty understanding why others don't feel likewise.  it's been a difficult lesson to learn, but the message, it seems to me, is clear:  that we're all different, and the inclusiveness of integral encourages us to fully honor this, something i'm still working on.Embarrassed [:$]

    if i understand you correctly, only sponsoring members can post  in the 'general community forums'.  there were also complaints about this shortly after robb came to i-i, because i-i chose to communicate with i-i members through this forum, in effect, allowing only sponsoring members to participate.  my perspective on this is the obvious one:  if other members had all the privileges that go with being a sponsoring member, then there wouldn't be sufficient incentive, i'm afraid, for very many to pony up the money required to be a sponsoring member!?

    your messages are greatly appreciated, even if i don't agree with you, ralph  

     



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  •  07-21-2007, 2:08 PM 26170 in reply to 26165

    • JulieSmith is not online. Last active: 04-12-2008, 6:51 PM JulieSmith
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    Re: Integral Life Portal: Real Name Usage

    Thank you, Pattye and Ralph. It's so nice to feel like we're in an actual conversation.

    Ralph, I am so completely in resonance with you about this idea that we can appreciate (and like and love) another irrespective of whether we're in agreement about this or that. I feel exactly the same. The connection that comes from authentic expression is what makes this effort worthwhile for me. I can connect without agreeing, and I find the experience quite enjoyable and enlightening.

    But back to the issue. When I learn of efforts to exclude anyone from participating in decisions about the community they live in I immediately start looking at what rationale is being used to justify the exclusion. I do that because exclusion very clearly diminishes authentic relationship and connection within the community. Yikes! Why would I want to do that? I'm open to hearing a rationale, and I'm open to being convinced that it's the right thing to do, but not without a lot of careful thought and consideration.

    When it comes to using money as the reason to exclude someone, I have to say I'm pretty darn close-minded. Call me crazy, but connecting inclusivity with money feels a lot like a monumental tug toward red safety needs to me. And doesn't red also go with status and power? (I'm not so good at the attributes of the colors yet, so please help me out if I get things wrong.) If I've got this right, an organization that is operating or attempting to operate at teal/turquoise/indigo is willing to exclude some members who ARE teal/turquoise/indigo by adopting red values into important structures of the organization. I just don't get it.

    If I've misinterpreted this, please help me understand whatever it is that I'm missing. If I'm right, is this really what we want?

    Julie




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  •  07-22-2007, 12:40 AM 26189 in reply to 26170

    Re: Integral Life Portal: Real Name Usage

    hi julie,

    i sometimes feel we're playing musical chairs with these threads. the smart ones grab a chair as soon as the thread begins and silently watch as those of us unable to find one end up sooner or later with a foot in our mouth.

    none of us knows the right answer, all claims to the contrary. the best we can do, i feel, is to take perspectives that are ever larger, more inclusive, more embracing. more inclusive means, of course, less exclusive, but inevitably somewhat exclusive, try as we may. put another way, to think that we can be absolutely inclusive is a romantic pipe dream, imo, even if i've indulged in it many a time.

    another such dream is that we can do without money, or more accurately put, that others will take care of that for us, since we have much more noble things to do. this generally begins with our parents, although we quickly begin seeking out others as well, isn't that true? this can easily grow to include anybody and anything with 'deep pockets'.

    postmodernism has taken this to a new high, imo. a case in point: 'sicko', which i haven't even seen, but do i really need to in order to know what it's about? Smile [:)] isn't it ironic that the most expansive consciousness yet available to extensive populations can be so easily subverted? hijacked by red?

    part of the musical chairs scenario is that i-i has a history in this regard that i've just been getting to know myself in the year or so i've been here, and that others know much better than myself. what i have picked up, going back almost five years now to when i began visiting 'integral' websites, is that ken wilber has been inviting those of us wanting to share in and work for his integral vision to come to colorado, but always with the warning that i-i is no cashcow. many, infected i suspect with the downside of postmodernism i just alluded to, have understood the invitation much better than the warning. you can get, perhaps, some sense of this by looking at the july 9th blog at kenwilber.com.

    don't get me wrong. many have volunteered and given unselfishly and gladly of themselves. i'm sure there's a wonderful story here that needs to be told at some point. but most of us have remained at home, enjoying the fruits of their labor for some small pittance (in my case, $20 per month), yet many have even complained, in effect, that they're not getting their money's worth. (have you checked out, btw, the latest audios and videos from ISC and IN, and the threads set up to go with them?) others have given more, and been disappointed by what they got in return, an all too human foible, it appears to me, of not seeing what they could have gotten if their hearts had only been more open.

    incidentally, i-i has indicated on more than one occasion a willingness to be flexible in cases where contributing members feel they can no longer afford to pay the going fee. i hope you can see why they cannot possibly make this automatically available to everyone. afterall, how many of us would be willing to open up our homes to just anyone, even with integral pretensions, that wanted to hang out there? (and KW, i understand, has, in the past, opened his home to a surprising number of people.) and i-i does have expenses to meet, this year, for instance, the additional expenses required to set up the Integral Life Portal. where is that money going to come from?

    again, this is only my perspective. like you, i hope that others who can add to that perspective will do so. maybe the music will not stop, and we won't be left without a chair to sit on.

    thank you for your contributions,

    ralph

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  •  07-22-2007, 4:46 AM 26196 in reply to 26189

    Re: Integral Life Portal: Real Name Usage

    See also this related thread.


    Pelle

    http://integraleurope.org
    http://pelle.gaia.com
    http://malmointegral.blogspot.com
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  •  07-22-2007, 5:39 PM 26217 in reply to 26189

    • JulieSmith is not online. Last active: 04-12-2008, 6:51 PM JulieSmith
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    Re: Integral Life Portal: Real Name Usage

    Ralph,

    You said

    i sometimes feel we're playing musical chairs with these threads. the smart ones grab a chair as soon as the thread begins and silently watch as those of us unable to find one end up sooner or later with a foot in our mouth.

    I know the feeling. But then I think about everything I've learned and felt from the wild chaotic giving caring sharing online forums I've been part of, and I just think it's worthwhile to get in the middle of it all just to be part of something bigger and better than I am. Sure, I get dirty sometimes, and I make mistakes more often than I like, but I have a lot of fun and make some new friends and expand into a bigger container of life. Maybe someday I'll be wise and on the side, but I'm not there yet. :)

    Alrighty then. You said lots of good stuff. I'm going to ignore part of that :) and go straight to something I think deserves a little more attention for the discussion at hand. Like this one:

    put another way, to think that we can be absolutely inclusive is a romantic pipe dream, imo, even if i've indulged in it many a time.

    That invites a really big discussion, and one I suspect we would both enjoy. But let's not have that one. For now, how about we limit the discussion to just the question of whether decisions about how the I-I forums are structured should be discussed in space that includes all I-I members, or only those I-I members who pay the higher sponsor membership rates?

    Well, gosh. What would it cost to have this conversation we're having in community space rather than less-than-community space? As far as I can see, nothing. Not one red cent. Hmmmm.

    And if the argument is that having this separate less-than-community space is an incentive to being a sponsor member, I say count me out, out, out. I became a sponsor member so I could receive those fancy DVDs and CDs in the mail because I was having a hard time downloading the stuff off the web. For me, having this separate space connected with my membership is a strong disincentive for being a sponsor member. I don't like it so much that I've already thought about decreasing my membership status to whatever it is that is less than sponsorship as a way to let I-I know how much I don't like it. (I'm hoping things change so I'm not forced to give up those DVDs and CDs, though. Those have really been a benefit to me that I'd rather not give up.)

    Okay. Next you say:

    another such dream is that we can do without money, or more accurately put, that others will take care of that for us, since we have much more noble things to do. this generally begins with our parents, although we quickly begin seeking out others as well, isn't that true? this can easily grow to include anybody and anything with 'deep pockets'.

    I haven't heard anyone suggest this argument, and certainly not me. If I-I says they are not independently and gloriously wealthy, I have no trouble believing them. I've suffered the same sad fate all of my life. :) But I gotta believe (even though I haven't seen it explored anywhere yet) that all the different CoGs have their own typical relationship with and response to money. How do teal and turquoise typically relate to money, I wonder?

    From my brief time in these forums, it's become pretty clear that this community is suffering. The suffering seems like more than regular suffering. It seems like something is amiss. For some reason, those things that help bring people back together in ways that feel good and enriching aren't happening often enough. I don't know why that has happened, but it's pretty clear that it has. Where is that likley to lead? My guess is that people will eventually leave. From what I've read, a number of people have already left and many others are perhaps technically still here in the forums, but barely. If some people not only leave the forums, but then also feel so disconnected that they end up leaving I-I altogether, then I-I gets less money.

    So back up to that earlier argument. If it doesn't cost anything to allow everyone to participate in these conversations, and if participation is one way to strengthen community, then doesn't it make sense to hold these conversations in space that is accessible to the entire community? I guess what I'm really suggesting is that we ought to be setting our sights on making this community a really wonderful healthy enriching place. If we can do things that encourage a sense of stable, valued, empowered community without spending any money at all, I think we should.

    Whew. Nuff said. Except one last thing. :) I just want to acknowledge that I have no idea what I-I's rationale is for making this decision about forum participation, and this entire conversation you and I are having may have exactly nothing to do with what they were thinking when they made the decision. And there may even be a rationale out there in the big wide world that I would agree with. Along this merry way, it's been good talking with you, Ralph.

    Julie

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  •  07-22-2007, 10:01 PM 26236 in reply to 25920

    • ikarma is not online. Last active: 07-17-2008, 11:15 PM ikarma
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    Re: Integral Life Portal: Real Name Usage

     Clearly there are advantages and disadvantages to both anonymity and to open identity.  Solid arguments have been made on both sides.  I personally like knowing who I'm talking to online and I always have a link to my real identity in my posts. I think this helps build community.  But there have also been times when I have refrained from posting on threads discussing sexual subjects, drugs, and those where intimate personal information was being shared.  In these cases my identity prevented me from sharing freely, thus harming the goal of building of community. 
     
    At my company, an online reputation management service called iKarma.com, we encourage identity verification, but we also allow anonymity for those who believe they need it.  You can use iKarma to rate any business or individual.  If you identify yourself, your review gains credibility and users can easily click through and see those who have reviewed you, and others you have reviewed. Your openness helps establish your credibility and helps build your own online reputation.  If you post anonymously, you naturally lose credibility and the business you have reviewed can challenge your review forcing you to choose between dropping your review or identifying yourself.  So far it seems to be working.  The point I am making here is that I don't think II has to make a choice between one or the other.  I think the arguments on both sides of this issue show that an ideal system would simply encourage an open identity, but would also allow for anonymity for individuals and threads where anonymity would be beneficial. 
     
    Some of you may remember a lovely young woman named Rhonda who was a very active poster on the old forum.  I think she was a minister at a church where her honest comments here might have cost her job.  As I recall she was subjected to unwanted sexual harassment and unwanted contact from a forum member who used her first name and her profession to track down her real home address and phone and that of her workplace.  I think the integral solution here would be to recognize that both perspectives contain truth that should be honored.  The solution then is to find a way to provides for the needs of each.  In my opinion this would be a system that encourages identity but allows anonymity.  Any abuse of anonymity would be a violation of terms of service and that person could be removed by management.
     
    PS: I love Seth Godin, I've read his books and paid to see him speak.  I don't even disagree with any of his points.  But I would note that his new service, Squidoo, is not growing or doing as well as similar services that allow anonymity for those who desire it.  

    Peace & Prosperity

    Paul Williams
    http://Paul.ikarma.com
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