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sports & spirituality

Last post 07-13-2008, 11:15 AM by fairyfaye. 61 replies.
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  •  05-20-2008, 10:04 PM 51792 in reply to 51707

    Re: sports & spirituality

    "What is the mentality or view of the world that prevents any of them from doing something like this?"

    Hi, Schalk - I hope I'm not being too glibb in saying that that is the mentality and world view which most of us inhabit to a significant degree. Yes?

    Though many people lead with their higher, more moral/ethical/socially constructive words and cognitions, when it comes to our attachment to stuff and objects that confer (and in the earlier or regressed aspects of ourselves, like magic for example, seem to contain and emanate) a sense and possibility of security, stimulation, power most of us are still in the thrall and the limited views of what might make us happy via these routes. There must be a number of variations on how we stay in orbiting dance around these images of security, stimulation, power, prestige and such and around these objects themselves that money can buy. I guess it's not for nothing that one of the primary post-freudian psychoanalytic schools is called "object relations". And who among us is really predominantly ready, has quite fully finished with and integrated the scintillating attraction, lure and seduction of objects; who among us is really free, for example, of the perfect tit, "the good breast", the yummy sensuality, the imagined opportunity for fullness that is greatness?

    For those of us who may not have repressed or disowned these incessant invitations to apparent joy, who among us have found integrous ways of living in the midst of highly ready opportunity without actually acting those sensuous and imaginary desires out, and recognizing that as one begins to simply taste of the fruit of the tree, there are powerful impulses to taste again and again, and with innumerably creative elaborations of attempted desire satisfaction. Who successfully deals with all that? Who's going to let go of stuff before they have hit some trembling shockwaves in themselves or accidently had some insight? Maybe Oprah wanted very badly to be the richest self-made woman in the world, or tiger a billionaire, then more and more. And other variations, yes.

    I suppose hence the various traditional religious and spiritual disciplines, as with Buddhism to try to live in these libidinous and rampant jungles called ourselves, educated and dressed to the 9's though we be. Though I be poor, I doubt that I'd be significantly different very rich, unless some more shifts happened. Just for the heck of it, Schalk, "And you?"

    So this is still where my mind goes when I think of this - I can hardly imagine some giving much of their wealth away, short of some minor or major delusion. Yoh, ambo


    Ambo Suno
  •  05-21-2008, 1:39 PM 51941 in reply to 51792

    Re: sports & spirituality

    Yeah Ambo:

    You always speak the truth and it is appreciated.

    Material reality is a real concern for most of us and for most of us we try to accumulate a base that goes beyond what we really need to survive and support the important non-material work of life.

    But there comes a point where you have so overwhelmingly much capital that you could never possibly improve your life to any appreciable degree compared to the massive amount of improvement you can provide to many other lives.

    How many bowling alleys can you put in your mansion? How many cars can you drive? Etc.

    I am thinking back to a time about 20 years ago. I was left a big coin collection (Morgan silvers, mercury dimes, etc.) in a will. The total value was about $2,500. The biological daughter of the guy who died was hurt by this. So one day I brought the entire safe over to her house and gave it to her, coins and bills and all. I just decided, I don't need it and she feels strongly about it. It ain't that hard to just give something to someone else.

    I am absolutely confident that if I had $87 million dollars I would do the kinds of things that I am wondering why Tiger and Michael Jordan and A-Rod are not doing.

    At a certain point, doesn't one have to look in the mirror? Maybe at the $50 million point?  

    What it comes down to is the same awareness that athletes have of status within their sport. Every golfer knows if he is in the top 10 on the money list. Number 8 feels superior to number 28.

    Similarly, every athlete knows roughly how they stack up with endorsements. They talk about it. Every golfer knows that Tiger is making a mint off of Nike. The competition is still alive - just translated over to a new form.

    So, it makes no sense to start providing medicine to SE Asia.  

    This is their world, a world of competitition. And to have meaningful competition, you have to have rules that govern the score keeping. And in the world of pro athletes, score keeping is done through digits followed by 6 zeroes. You might as well cut off your foot as give away money.  

    My strong sense is that this is the reason we cannot point to a single athlete or artist who has devoted the bulk of their capital toward the betterment of mankind. Some do better than others, of course. But in the end, the contribution is minimal.

    Sorry, but as much as I enjoy watching and playing sports, I am very disappointed in the payback that athletes and entertainers give to society. And I am absolutely unprepared to buy into the Dave Meggesy suggestion that there may be higher levels of consciousness among athletes than we realize.

     

  •  05-21-2008, 6:19 PM 51975 in reply to 51707

    Re: sports & spirituality

    The other IN dialog on sports is the Shaun Phillips one. He talks about all his fellow weight lifters acting like children and how seeing them motivated him to work on his consciousness as well as his weight lifting.
  •  05-21-2008, 8:07 PM 51991 in reply to 51941

    Re: sports & spirituality

    Schalk, I am guessing that that young woman who received the collection felt happy by receiving those, happy by your act. She probably learned something at some depth into herself from receiving that from you about releasing attachment and about generosity and it wouldn't be surprising if she gave some similar kindness or sacrifice in her future life.

    You mention 'amount' as a way of keeping score - I had an uncle who was fairly successful as a business man and investor - he used to say a similar thing - that "it's not the money itself, it's a yardstick to how well you are doing in life." Something like that.

    Yeah, with those amounts of money, if there weren't the runaway competitveness and variety of symbolic meanings and implications to accumulation, giving some away doesn't seem like such a handicap - to say the least. Ahh - the greed of man - a venerable and timeless topic.
     ambo
    Ambo Suno
  •  05-26-2008, 3:27 PM 53009 in reply to 51991

    Re: sports & spirituality

    A couple of more thoughts. Though probably not '2nd tier', I sometimes think that the work that professional sports and the individual actors have done is herculean in the we area of kneading and working and healing the cultural rifts between races and socio-economic and class divisions. I think that people having to work together, play together, come to harmonious action together is powerful, and though maybe emphasizing 'green' relating, I feel that there must be frequent emanations of affection that climb (and descend) the charts to oneness with facets of love. Yes these are probably mainly states but they maybe reset the parameters of what is possible for the participants, organizations, and audience, become attractors that can generalize and must have generalized to some extent already. No, not always, and not all-lasting, and limited, but wow - the sweetness of some of that new territory feels almost transmaterial/spiritual. Sometimes it feels huge to me.

    I wonder who would be a good sports figure who might have an exchange with Ken who might have understood enough of the largeness of life, has some familiarity with meditation and and with human development, and with substantial cognitive/verbal capacities to articulate and to follow Ken. The only name that comes to mind for me is Phil Jackson of the Los Angeles Lakers. However, obviously there are a number of 'ifs'. Phil appears in his sports interviews to rely on a comfortably laconic style that may serve him well in the sport. If the energy of an interview got stuck there it could be a drag. It would be interesting to know if he has read or paid any attention to Ken's work. Would he be willing to let go of being an authority long enough to be the student or co-laborator on a discussion? I don't have a good enough sense of him to know whether it would work or not. It might be interesting for IN to query that. Now is the NBA playoff season and a lot of eyes are on this activity and highest of the high athletic and team performance. I believe that Phil just became the most winning playoffs coach in NBA history. He has some reputation as an intelligent and outside of the box coach who assigns growth books to individuals and I think sometimes leads moments of silence and meditation. Someone here may know more about him than I. He could be an interesting interview if he were screened first and if he were willing. ambo

    Ambo Suno
  •  05-26-2008, 10:05 PM 53065 in reply to 53009

    Re: sports & spirituality

    Once again,  Michael Murphy" books.  I think he also wrote "Golf in the Kingdom". I could have that so wrong.  And remember, ambo, KW says that there are only 2% of people in the world that are at one of the high altitudes.  The athlete that gave the money, maybe.   And we can still get in the Zone and George Leonard says that after a good workout, meditation is never so juicy.   He and Murphy wrote a book called

    "The Lives We Are Given".    It won't give you the same thrill that some of these great athletes and teams you speak of but there is a whole philosophy behind all this that is the same.   If you have not tried ILP, you could experience it for yourself esp if you add some of the other exercises that are suggested.  You can supplement with your own favorite and the most wonderful beautiful prayer or offering or blessing that was put together for a start has movement and naturually has one embody what is said. (after you get the words memorized and your body to twist in the right way -beginners)  Stay with it.   There is a reason.  If you cannot affort the kit, buy the small book called "Integral Vision"  from the "store" on sight here.   It is somewhere around 15.00 as opposed to the over 150 for the kit.  The book has all the directions for that and much more.  Sort of sumarizes everything into a  very small space.   The point is we all need movement in our lives daily or at least a few times a week.   You guys are getting too interesting.   I do not want to spend too much time on-line .  

    schalk and Mark-  I always read all your stuff.     Thanks    Pattye

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  •  05-29-2008, 1:26 AM 53574 in reply to 53009

    Re: sports & spirituality

    I recently mentioned that professional athletes in general are probably not moving as far as we like to credit them up the levels and lines.

    I mentioned also that Manny Ramirez, though he may engage in visualization, may very well be simply visualizing hitting a ball, hitting a ball, and then sitting down. This doesn't make him 2nd Tier.

    So, tonight several of us went to Safeco Field in Seattle to watch the final game of the Red Sox - Mariners series. And we are sitting off the left field foul pole, just adjacent to Manny.

    He is doing something. It seems like he is praying or talking to God. At one point, he is looking to Heaven in supplication. In the next moment, his head is bowed.

    There is something utterly honest and open about him. One gets the overwhelming sense that he is in the garden, doing something more than simply playing a game.

    I did not realize that one could participate in what seems to be a game with such an attitude.

    There are many Red Sox fans in this corner of the stadium. They seem to regard this man with estimation and a direct reverence that is normally not extended to an athlete.

    I felt like he was bringing something down through the roof of the stadium into the field of play.

     

     

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  •  05-29-2008, 4:00 PM 53695 in reply to 53574

    Re: sports & spirituality

    Yeah, that's pretty interesting, actually to see him by the field, engaged in some apparent connection larger than his ordinary human relational self.

    That must be a gas to go to a ball game, & red sox-mariners, with friends.

    My daughter and her husband just moved to the SoCal town adjacent to me, from Seattle where he's from. I thought about moving there near them - now it would be after three years when they return. But I am discovering that my older constitution may be coming to dig the sun too much.

    Back to sports - bummer about the sonics having to leave, eh?

    Ambo Suno
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  •  05-29-2008, 4:14 PM 53698 in reply to 53695

    Re: sports & spirituality

    Hey guys - just a reminder - if you have any questions about Sports and Spirituality that you would like David Meggyesy to respond to, he has made himself available for interactions with the Integral community.  Just submit any questions you might have to integralsports@gmail.com

    __________________________

    Corey W. deVos (dj rekluse)
    Brand Manager, Integral Naked
    Audio Manager, Integral Institute
    Managing Editor, KenWilber.com
    __________________________
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  •  05-29-2008, 6:14 PM 53704 in reply to 53698

    Re: sports & spirituality

    Corey:

    You are from Mass, right? You can appreciate what I am talking about - what the Red Sox mean?

    For those of us who are not from Boston - I am asserting that the Red Sox are more, much more, than a baseball club.

    How do I attach a foto to a posting?

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  •  05-30-2008, 3:31 PM 53787 in reply to 53704

    Re: sports & spirituality

    Oh i totally and completely know what you mean.  All the Boston teams seem to have used to have that certain special "glow" to them--the Celtics, the Sox, and the Bruins--though these days everyone but the Sox seem to have lost that luster.  Don't get me wrong--the Celtics are quickly regaining their relevance these days, but it's just not the same as when i'd watch Larry Bird and Kevin McHale back in the day....  I can't explain it, but i think the feeling has somehow changed around these teams.  It's as if an irreplacable part of the Boston soul was lost when they tore down the Boston Garden.

    Of course, i am almost completely speaking out of my ass here--i haven't been back to Boston in years (though i do miss the city more than i can say), and i have always been MUCH more knowledgable about music and art than i am sports, almost like i was presented a binary choice of what to "get into" as a teenager when i was about 13 years old.  So, all i can do is speak to the general feeling of it all....

    But yes, all in all, the Boston Red Sox are much much more than "just" a group of guys hitting a wad of leather with wooden planks--they are a fucking sociological phenomenon.

    __________________________

    Corey W. deVos (dj rekluse)
    Brand Manager, Integral Naked
    Audio Manager, Integral Institute
    Managing Editor, KenWilber.com
    __________________________
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  •  05-30-2008, 5:29 PM 53796 in reply to 53787

    Re: sports & spirituality

    Boston. Wow. That is a Zone 4 LL topic if there ever was one.

    Boston is where colonists decided to risk everything and declare war on the King. No guarantees either. It could have gone terribly bad.

    ************************************************************************

    By the way, what is the technique for attaching fotos to posts?

    ************************************************************************

    It's been awhile since I've been to a big league baseball game.

    Something stunned me. It has to do with the difference between our LL perception in Zone 4 of what is happening as informed through sports TV and news and the Zone 6 UR event itself.

    I wasn't ready for the pace of the event from the perspective of the "workers."

    Let's follow a baseball player through a typical game.

    The game starts at 7:10 PM.

    You show up at the park around 4:30. You get dressed in the locker room. You shoot the breeze with various people. You head out to the field, you run around a little, play a little catch, hit some practice balls, shoot the breeze some more. This lasts about 90 minutes. Then you go back into the locker room to get ready for the game.

    The game starts.

    Let's say you are Ichiro Suzuki. You run out to center field. You spend about 10 minutes out there paying close attention to every pitch. Nothing comes to you. You run back into the dugout.

    You pick up your bat. You go to the plate. You watch the first pitch. Ball one. On the next pitch you swing. The ball goes to the 2nd baseman. You run as fast as you can to first base, and within 4 seconds you are out. You sit down.

    10 minutes later, you run back out to centerfield. You pay close attention to the pitches. You might get one ball hit to you, maybe not. 10 minutes later, you run back into the dugout and sit down. You will not in all likelihood be batting for the next 10 minutes.

    You run back out, you run back in, you sit, you wait, you watch.

    After about 30 minutes you get to hit again. You might hit the ball to another field and be out. You sit down.

    The life of a baseball player is long, long stretches of doing nothing but watching, interspersed with short spurts of activity. What you do in those short spurts of activity will determine whether you make 1 million or 15 million dollars next year.

    And if you are a relief pitcher, you don't bat in the American league, and you don't even pitch most of the time. You show up, go through all the preliminaries, watch and maybe you'll get called in to throw the ball 15 times in a 10 minute period once every 5 days.

    This does not really come through when watching a game on TV or reading internet summaries.

    It is work for many of the players. It is a job site. They know the terms of employment and they have to do it almost night after night for 6 months. "It" being - show up, stand around, watch, shoot the breeze, and then explode for about 2 seconds.

    I am wondering how many other events we assume we know from watching TV or reading about them that are actually very different from the perspective of those engaged in them.

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  •  05-31-2008, 1:42 PM 53874 in reply to 53796

    Re: sports & spirituality

    Hey Schalk - just upload an image to PhotoBucket, and copy the link.

    When writing a post, in the html view, use this code:



    If you want to resize it in the post, add a width="300" (or whatever dimensions you want)

    so:




    __________________________

    Corey W. deVos (dj rekluse)
    Brand Manager, Integral Naked
    Audio Manager, Integral Institute
    Managing Editor, KenWilber.com
    __________________________
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  •  05-31-2008, 2:13 PM 53880 in reply to 53874

    Re: sports & spirituality

    Roger!
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  •  05-31-2008, 2:28 PM 53882 in reply to 53796

    Re: sports & spirituality

    http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/schalkschalk/?action=view¤t;=DSC01809.jpg http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/schalkschalk/?action=view¤t;=DSC01810.jpg
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