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third way politics

Last post 07-28-2008, 1:04 PM by innerline. 26 replies.
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  •  05-28-2008, 11:03 PM 53550 in reply to 53118

    Re: third way politics

    Hi ff.   I have had a long busy day but wanted to get on-line to respond.  Took me forever to remember the name of the thread.  Thanks for your new perspective-at least that is how I interpreted your Post.   Not to worry.   I have this saying on my wall.    It is one that I read often and it is the lightest way (for my temperment ) to remind myself  when I goof up.

    "Accept that sometimes you are the pigeon

    And sometimes you are the statue "     

    I need that lightness as I realized how many times, I was eager to feel hurt and then angry and then wanting to strike back.   I took a good look at that  and realized that I was looking for chaos and drama with that first re-action and then later realized that I liked the drama and the three stages - or in other words,  I was identifying with all that stuff.  As I looked further,  I would realize that  I was either neglecting my practice or it was time for a change in the practice.   Then one day when I was really still pondering this and amazed at time I was spending on it,  I found the "above" quote in one of our outlet stores while looking for something else.

    That happens for me at times, when I am "holding" something or it will not go away.

    An answer will appear when I  least expect it.    And it will be something like that- some dam thing that I could see so clearly in the sense of recognizing drama and chaos in others, esp. in one of the many people in this family.  I was pretty dumbfounded when I realized how immature it was of me because I had labeled that as immature.   It certainly does cause the drama and chaos in some way.  And then I went on to watch actions and re-actions in myself and others and I would run across literature or other places the subject would keep coming up.   There was a lot of humor and love yourself first as human (really a good book on that one) and then meditate on the situation.   When I found the above saying, I felt I had gotten a Phi Beta Kappa award for my work because that small saying just gives me a nice balance, settled me down with a truth about how I can contribute to small actions that actually would make me Ugly Pattye  (instead of U. Betty).   I am writing a longer piece about this and may blog it eventually.   I just wanted you to know that I am lighter now and appreciate you quickly going to work in your way to  do the same thing.  And thought you might appreciate how the quote helped me. Later Pattye    PS  No corrections tonite   Yawn.

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  •  05-31-2008, 8:05 AM 53839 in reply to 52958

    Re: third way politics

    Yes, Bernadette, I thought that this topic was interesting and well presented by Ken. I llked how it presented a number of integral theoretical issues through the lens of politics and the current election. I thought that the write-up with the developmental outline included was good and helpful to me. The complex reality of our situation as country and world was placed clearly and modestly before us, in the form of those several apparent dilemmas.

    Ambo Suno
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  •  06-01-2008, 2:42 PM 53991 in reply to 53839

    Re: third way politics - end of the US 2-party system?

    Did anyone else watch/listen to the DNC Rules & By-laws Committee proceedings yesterday?  I got the distinct feeling that the Democratic Party is now so split as to make the possibility of a division into two parties much more real than at any time in the past.  Perhaps we are getting closer to having parties that will reflect the 4 or 5 different value-sets that Ken talked about in "Integral Third Way Politics".
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  •  06-07-2008, 1:29 PM 54787 in reply to 52992

    Re: third way politics

    Cory, FYI, I've just posted the following comment on David Brin's blog:

     adastra said...

    David, I've been reading your blog and other material for some time, and I'd like to thank you for your pragmatic, compassionate engagement with the challenges and opportunities facing our civilization. In particular I appreciate your efforts to end the "culture wars" and admire the way you advocate talking with conservatives in their own terms.

    Are you familiar with the perspective of Ken Wilber's integral politics, which is also trying to address some of the same issues? Here is the opening text from an interesting piece I read recently on Integral "Third-Way" Politics:

    While surveying the current American political landscape, it can be easy to feel as though the country is divided into two radically opposing populations: the Left and the Right. When watching the speeches, interviews, and debates on either side of the fence, there is such an incredible difference between the tone, rhetoric, and messages coming from the two major political parties that many pundits have commented that it is as though we live in two utterly different Americas, with very little overlap between the two. But the truth is, we do not live in two Americas, but in a single America composed of at least four or five different sets of values, all crammed together into a two-party political system that is becoming increasingly incapable of representing these wildly different perspectives. Many are beginning to recognize this systemic inadequacy and are searching for a genuinely Integral “Third Way” politics—a new way to break free from the restrictions of such rigidly calcified party lines, transcending both sides of the partisan divide, including the very best of both parties, without resorting to the effete compromise of mere centrism that has been typical of the political “Third Way” to date.

    In order to fully understand and appreciate the different sets of values and beliefs that make up the flesh and bones of America, we must allow ourselves to step back and take a developmental view of American culture—one which can make sense of the full spectrum of perspectives that are currently at play in the political arena, while also being able to account for America’s rich political history, as the oldest functioning democracy in the world.

    The rest of the text, as well as a 30-minute video of Ken Wilber discussing this topic, is available at:
    http://in.integralinstitute.org/live/view_ipolitics.aspx

    I would love to hear what you think of this perspective.

    ~~~ It will be interesting to see what, if anything, he has to say to that.  In any case, a few more eyeballs will be exposed to integral politics.

    spiral out,
    Arthur


    I am seeking meaningful work.

    bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

    I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

    "You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn
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  •  06-07-2008, 3:45 PM 54805 in reply to 54787

    Re: third way politics

    David Brin has left a new comment on the post "All right, then, how can we help?": adastra, thanks, and yes, Ken Wilber is speaking much wisdom.

    There are many obstacles, however. My son, Ben, so despises the rigid two-party system that he can’t even talk politics, because the party names enrage him. Yet, they have engaged in a restraint-of-trade conspiracy to ensure that -- whichever party wins -- both benefit from sinecures and safe seats and protection from the REAL enemy... the voters.

    See my series on gerrymandering:
    http://www.davidbrin.com/gerrymandering1.html
    and http://issuepedia.org/David_Brin:_Gerrymandering

    Not that I have huge truck with third parties. Nader’s a schmuck and so is the head of the Libertarian ticket, this year. Indeed, the difference between the Democrats and the Republicans right now happens to be day and night, with the democrats 95% good and the GOP deserving nothing but total anihilation at the polls. I do not say this as a classic “liberal” but simply because the Democratic party is currently an open American political party and the Republican party is owned and totally operated by a gang of thieves and traitors.

    THIS MAY CHANGE! But only if the GOP is so totally trounced that they do a total, ground-up re-evaluation of whither-goest conservatism.

    Moreover, if they are SO trounced that they lose a dozen statehouses, then the dems will be the ONLY party benefiting from gerrymandering! I relish that because in the short term it will complete the GOP’s punishment. But then, something miraculous should happen! The GOP will suddenly “discover” gerrymandering as an issue! They will hammer on it, committ to its banishment, win back voters as champions of “one man one vote!” Oh, if only....



    I am seeking meaningful work.

    bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

    I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

    "You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn
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  •  06-07-2008, 4:28 PM 54809 in reply to 54805

    Re: third way politics

    Arthur:

    Thanks for sharing this!

    The notion of the GOP doing a ground-up re-evaluation - I like this because using the vertical development model with the GOP largely amber-orange and the Dems orange-green, what will happen is the GOP will arrive at the conclusion that it is exactly where it should be.

    From the ground up, it will see how it has transcended red and represents what is good for America! It can never get beyond itself without gaining new altitude though.

    This is the kind of talk we hear so much of and which a basic grasp of Integral levels of consciousness could clarify.

    I am not a member of the GOP and I have never voted Republican in my life! Having said that, let me share something that Mr. Brin does not seem to realize.

    I have several close friends who are hard core GOP voters.

    Let me focus on one of them: I have a friend from college (3 decades ago) who teaches geology at a university. He is not an idiot. Cognitively, I cannot keep up with him.

    And here is the reason he is a hard core Republican: he gives great emphasis to the role of the individual in being responsible for themselves and their society. And he is disgusted by big government and programs that help people who are not willing to help themselves.

    Arthur, I know you have heard Ken Wilber point this out again and again. But Mr. Brin, when he says that 95% of the Democrats are good and the GOP deserves total annhilation, is doing a grave disrespect to a lot of people who can credibly claim they are the foundation of our society.

    Here is why Obama is going to lose. Don't confuse this with why he should lose or whether I want him to lose. I am saying, as objectively as I can, I am predicting that Obama will lose. And it comes down to this:

    Americans know that his Presidency will involve a large measure of "government trying to solve social problems in America" rather than "individuals solving their own problems through discipline, hard work, and moral courage."

    It does not come down to an issue of Republicans supporting a party of thieves who own them. This may be a true statement about how the party operates. But this same gang of thieves stands for moral positions involving individual responsibility that the Democrats and Obama do not recognize.

    Most Republican voters are willing to overlook corruption and weak Democratic principles if the candidate stands solidly on a platform of moral courage and individual responsibility.

    I am not arguing with anything you have said or even implied Arthur. I am, however, trying to point out a couple of key places where I think Mr. Brin is blind as a bat. He is missing out the key point that Wilber has emphasized over and over - what truly distinguishes the left and the right.

    This same moral courage and individual responsibility concern translates over into the war. To a Republican, you do not tolerate having your civilian planes hijacked and your civilians blown to death 3,000 at a time! We can futz around later about who may or may not have had a role. But in the meantime, if there is smoke in the hills, then there is probably fire. This explains why there has not been any meaningful public protestations of the war over the last 5 years in the streets of America.

    To a Republican, we have enough Democracy. No need for domestic strife and debate at this point. There are some wrongs to be righted. That's the concern.  

     

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  •  06-07-2008, 5:22 PM 54814 in reply to 54809

    Re: third way politics

    Anybody can post on David Brin's blog.  Just sayin'.

    Arthur


    I am seeking meaningful work.

    bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

    I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

    "You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn
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  •  06-07-2008, 7:04 PM 54818 in reply to 54814

    Re: third way politics

    OK, so David Brin is clearly open to integral/Wilberific commentary, and his blog (Contrary Brin) is open to comments from anyone.  The blog is described as, "An occasional online journal to handle discussions generated by "The David Brin Site" (http://www.davidbrin.com/) Courteous argument is welcome..." 

    "Contrary Brin" is one place where people who feel like it (and have time) could engage people from a respectful integral perspective (which may or may not involve explicit or extensive discussion of the AQAL map per se.)  What's going on there is close enough to integral to make it potentially worthwhile to share integral/ish perspectives and see what happens.

    In any case, there's a lot of material I find interesting, thought-provoking and inspiring on his website, including a ton of political stuff which may interest some people.  I often like what he has to say and find it worth pondering.  I would particularly recommend his book and other material on The Transparent Society, which deals with one of the most important meta-issues of our times.

    cheers,
    Arthur


    I am seeking meaningful work.

    bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

    I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

    "You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn
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  •  06-07-2008, 8:16 PM 54820 in reply to 54818

    Re: third way politics

    As always, Thanks Arthur!
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  •  06-30-2008, 10:19 AM 59662 in reply to 52992

    • jseav19 is not online. Last active: 09-05-2008, 11:56 PM jseav19
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    • Pinos Altos, NM
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    • Points 20

    Re: third way politics

    Hey Corey,

    I understand you work with Ken W. so I'd like you to consider this forthcoming point of view and consider passing it on to KW if it holds muster for you. 

    I just watched "Third Way" and was struck by a strong sense that KW had missed an important point.  He mentioned that less than 10% of the population is at 2nd tier.  Fine.  However, he went on to conclude from this point that a democracy almost guarantees that a 2nd tier leader won't be elected or that a leader from leading edge of consciousness won't be elected, ever, under the current system.  I disagree with that.  2nd tier integrates the 1st tier, is built on the 1st tier, understands the 1st tier, accesses 1st tier.  Essentially does 1st tier better than anyone solely residing in 1st tier simply due to the fact that a 2nd tier person has options to resonate from any one of structure-stages that he deems it appropriate to the situation.  Thus the 10-fold increase in efficiency.  Now, winning the hearts and minds of voters at first tier, I'm sure can be considered a developmental line (charisma, perhaps).  A second tier candidate could essentially win an election by a landslide, winning votes from voters at just about every stage of development.  His proposed solutions and interpersonal/campaign management would be integrally informed and capable of resonating as truth to voters at every stage.  As KW puts it "greatest good for the greatest span."

    Thanks for doing your good work.  Please let me know what you think about this point of view if you can.

    Jesse Seavers
    Pinos Altos, NM

    Still wondering...
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  •  06-30-2008, 12:39 PM 59721 in reply to 59662

    Re: third way politics

    Jesse:

    Can I offer you a challenge?

    Before we go to Wilber?

    - let's say you are the manager for the campaign of a 2nd Tier politician. Your wo/man is running for President.

    You said: "A second tier candidate could essentially win an election by a landslide, winning votes from voters at just about every stage of development.  His proposed solutions and interpersonal/campaign management would be integrally informed and capable of resonating as truth to voters at every stage."

    Can you do something for me? Please outline a 10 point plan of the messages that your candidate will present to America, that is, in the next 2 weeks, given ample access to the media, to a nation which is made up of amber fundamentalists, healthy amber workers, orange intellectuals, orange businessmen, green of every variety, etc.

    I agree with you in theory. Let's see though exactly what this candidate would have to do to get that truth resonating to all of those different altitudes so as to ... win the election by a landslide, as you put it.

    If you can win my vote with this hypothetical candidate, I will personally approach Ken Wilber and tell him how he can become President in '08.

    R/S

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  •  07-28-2008, 1:04 PM 66330 in reply to 52949

    Re: third way politics

    Hi Fairyfaye,

    I believe the cigar refers to private agreements behind closed doors.

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