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Tragic Tales of Apartheid

Last post 06-16-2008, 10:20 PM by ambosuno. 25 replies.
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  •  06-14-2008, 10:21 PM 55454 in reply to 55390

    • figtreehillchiro is not online. Last active: 21 Aug 2008, 8:56 PM figtreehillchiro
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    Re: Spiral Dynamics Integral

    On a mild tangent...

    To quote Schalk

    "So, SD calls for us to use a LL perspective to look at collective interiors. And beauty and truth are not the proper barometers for valid knowledge of collective interiors. Goodness/justness is the barometer. And we all have access to that using our inherent subjective skill in that perspective.

    But what if two people disagree on what is good?

    A physicist and a non-physicist will have different ideas about how to read sub-atomic particle measurements. We trust the physicist to give better truth. Likewise, in the LL quadrant, some may be more qualified than others to assess what is better and what is worse/just and unjust/ethical and unethical."

    Akin to Ambo, I'm concerned about articulating my questions effectively...

    In my personal attempts to be present with "each quadrant arising moment to moment" as Ken would describe, I find myself bypassing the LL a little. I consider my guessamates of other people's UL and my UL but miss out the "We believe..."

    It could be purely due to lack of exposure of examples so feel free to suggest. It could also be my shadow... assuming everyone disagrees with me.

    By definition, the LL is the collective interior perspective. The "We". So what happens if the participants disagree? (Upon writing this I've realised I need to look into Cultural Shadows as I haven't studied that yet)

    What I have considered a factor in the discovery of the 'solution' if there is one, is upon the development towards the Integral 2nd Tier, the short comings of each of the 1st Tier Memes included their bias to 1 or 2 quadrants. Meaning, Orange's forte was the Right quadrants, the UL was a strength of the Blue and Green favoured the LL.

    So 'better truth' (eg layman versus a Physicist on subatomic issues) can be found in the Right quadrants as Orange has no issue with "better". However in terms of finding a 'better good' in the LL, because Green has an issue with 'better' maybe that's why this was a gap in my understanding????

    My personal 'better goods' relate to Moral beliefs or making a decision that will be best for the most people. (???) But that doesn't mean that "We" agree on that 'better good'?

    Any suggestions??

    Aren't we all crazy? Some more crazier than others?

    :)
    A clever ironic quote is best here... instead I'll smile :)
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  •  06-14-2008, 11:22 PM 55459 in reply to 55390

    Re: Spiral Dynamics Integral

    schalk and ambo,  You might know that I would think of something as soon as I said I did not have time to participate.

    Because I had such trouble with "The Myth of the Given", I finally heard on one of the audio sessions this little gem from Ken.   He was speaking of "Truth" instead of Good".   I might have a revelation or a causal experience that is rather "mind blowing" and would soon be running around saying that I had this Truth and thinking it should be added to all that had gone before and besides, I had read of such things

    and talked with a few others and they had that sort of thing happen.

    Just because you have an experience, does not mean it is there for the world to hear about.  In fact, it may be that you are to "hold" that.  And it is not for the collective. It is your truth, so it is a truth.  

    To know that it is true for you can become Big enough.   Seems to me looking at the word Good and how to use that might bring an answer by pondering the word for awhile.

    We now know that God did not part the Red Sea.  Ken said  that today everyone has a camera and you better not make those kind of statements because someone would take a picture of THAT!

    Also there were no adverbs and adjectives in the Bible before new versions were written and the only way one could be seen as Great or a Leader or a Teacher was to have them do colassal acts or even to be a giant (big)  or walk on water, or a virgin birth.  The story of the Birth of Jesus was written 30 years after he died since they wanted to say that this Great Man (who did change the world and Christ consciousness was no small thing) had this very special birth with the humble,  the Sheperds, Kings, bowing down, and giving their offerings and the angels and stars and the straw and the animals etc.   And a virgin birth for whatever reason, either because they were not married or they wanted to say that Jesus actually came from the Holy Spirit.  Son of God.  More to this.   And whatever the Bible said was literal for all for a long time. And still is for some.

    Also since Ken's research is so extensive, as I understand it, he found that in every World Religion, they all said the same thing.  The Good The True and The Beautiful-

    are written in Stone for the Map.  At one time he had all of his books and papers all over the floor of living room trying to make sense of everything.  And lived in his house with a bed  and thousands of books.  Something like that.  One stint, he only saw 3 or 4 people in four years.

    And The Good The True and The Beautiful   also speaks of  Values, Science and Art.   And someone needs to get in on this.   I may get some on it wrong.

    So I, for one don't question the research he had done and what he has come up with.

    That does not mean that there will not be changes and additions and he has said he certainly expects that as things evolve.  I am saying that I personally do not question much of anything that has been in the collectlive as "true" for a really long time. And the people that question and debate have a big job.   The Beck thing is on a Thread somewhere.  Maybe the links will get you there.  And that is a relatively new description.  I have never known when the naming and colors were done by him or anyone before him.

    KW was a Southern Baptist and was after the Truth.  When he was very sick a year or so ago, a friend of mine said,   "He has told himself the Truth and he tells us the Truth. Another way that word is used.  I get this since I appreciate so much of my catholic background  and had parents that questioned most all of the nonsense even tho they found nothing that suited them better.  I never knew any Sourthern Baptists who ended up  having Priests, Brothers, Rabbi's  And everykind of Easter religion leader or writer as his good friends.  In fact maybe we need a Southern Baptist just to be fair.  And maybe we do.  Don't hold me to any of this.  Look it up. Later Pattye


     

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  •  06-14-2008, 11:41 PM 55461 in reply to 55429

    Re: Spiral Dynamics Integral

    schalk and ambo      Have you guys read "Integral Spirituality".  That is the latest thing on so many  of your questions.  It was #1 in the UK.  And so much of the material that you ask questions about are explained.   One quote from Ken.  "Bear with me as I go through this and explain.  If I had to do it then you will just have to do it also."   I have never read a remark like that said by KW.  And one of the comments you will hear often is how grateful we all are that he has taken this material, researched it and put it together.    And there is a set of tapes about the Kosmos that have a ton of info and are really done well with Tami Simon asking the questions.  It is a must even though there is more added in Integral Spirituality.  It is not late nite reading.  I have read much of it more that two times.

    That book was posted in draft form here at Integral just before it came out.  I don't know how much they keep in the archives.   However, you were/are lucky that we had a class ( check the archives on that) about the book with telephone calls etc. That might be around.  You would be lucky to have both at the same time.     Yes, Happy Father's Day to all of the Fathers.   Pattye

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  •  06-14-2008, 11:46 PM 55462 in reply to 55454

    Re: Spiral Dynamics Integral

    Dear figtree,   Sorry, I did not see you were in on this until after I wrote my Posts.  Hope something I wrote will help.  The book is the main place to go.  I did not write a quote either.   I just started doing that again lately and I figured there is not a quote in the whole world for this.  So Smile to you also.   Pattye
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  •  06-15-2008, 7:28 AM 55495 in reply to 55459

    Re: Spiral Dynamics Integral

    Hi, Pattye - I need to hurry to get on the road to meet with a daughter and son-in-law for this day of fathers connection, but I want to reply briefly to what you say. As always you have a lot of personal experience and creative processing to bring to bear on your understanding of things - makes life interesting - I suppose we all do.

    I usually don't mean disrespect to Ken or the integral movement, when I disagree, though I'm sure that sometimes I do project my messinesses out on the material. Ken is a wild genius of extraordinary proportion in the territories that he has explored. I don't have to be one to see that when I listen to an audio or read a book. Last night I went to his first interview placed on IN with Michael Murphy and those two brainiacs had a gas - how could one not see that he has done extensive work.

    When I disagree, when its not just my shadowy background aggression or anger, I sometimes think of it as a gift.

    I agree with you that plenty of our mis-communication has to do with unclarity about the meaning of our words.

    You say, "And The Good The True and The Beautiful   also speaks of  Values, Science and Art.   And someone needs to get in on this."

    This allows me to simply say that it seems to me that there is something like good, true, and beautiful values; there is something like good, true, and beautiful science; there is something like good, true, and beautiful art; and I don't want a sketching diagram to mislead me that there isn't an appropriate use of those words together. It may be that science is an especially useful tool for looking at certain truths, especially in the right side quadrants - but I suggest that not exclusively. So, I guess in integral language, "Yes, and." I could probably say more but maybe you get my general gist of not wanting to reify some nifty ideas with a nifty diagram - stay flexible and questioning.

    Though I acknowledged in an earlier post the cross-cultural and cross-historical acknowledgement of these classic value/quality spheres, I was finessing it a bit. I didn't and don't really know that all cultures and all times have abstracted these three in this way. I don't know that in Tibet, for example, they abstracted and put emphasis on compassion, colors influence and sacredness of fruit trees.

    To show you that I think that they are usefully heuristic and aesthetically pleasing, I attach a photo of a cabinet that I put at work, where I did overlay the three slice pie over concentric circles with attribution to Ken Wilber and the perennial philosophies. I just drew them on with sharpies so they are not art; and the cabinets for my stuff are utilitarian.

    I know that mothers also have to be fathers sometimes, so happy fathers day. Gotta run so I can get to my daughter's early church service. ambo


    Ambo Suno
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  •  06-15-2008, 7:31 AM 55496 in reply to 55495

    Re: Spiral Dynamics Integral

    Attachment: aqal.JPG
    And the four quadrants with elaboration of lines in the UL.


    Ambo Suno
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  •  06-15-2008, 7:35 AM 55497 in reply to 55495

    Re: Spiral Dynamics Integral

    and lines emphasized in UL.


    Ambo Suno
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  •  06-15-2008, 7:37 AM 55498 in reply to 55495

    Re: Spiral Dynamics Integral

    PS - I notice that if we click on the photo in the post, it takes out the distortion, at least on my mac.

    Ambo Suno
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  •  06-15-2008, 11:02 PM 55532 in reply to 55498

    Re: Spiral Dynamics Integral

    Thanks ambo.  I was not saying in anyway that you were coming from the shadow side.   I was saying that everytime I thought it was one thing or the other, I would read further or hear another tape or hear something in the discussions of his last book that would clear things up for me more.  I still have trouble expressing and I keep exploring the subject.  All I meant was that I had learned to get all the info I could from KW's work because I eventually experienced that he said somethng somewhere that made an issue more clear.     I ask someone to help me explain it better while I was writing to you.   My point is this.   Don't neglect any of his material and some people go on to read all the people that he researched like the works of Carol Gilligan and Don Beck etc.  I remember the chart you were working on when we were writing earlier.    

    I was also saying that it is a lot easier to know exactly what he is saying before too much questioning.   I hardly talk about this subject since I feel I am still learning and most questions I thought I had would eventually come up answered or I woudl have to "eat crow"  (Ky. term)   when my interpretations were incomplete because I had still not read or listened to enough.  In a way, I wanted to say- just relax with some of that.  There are different ways of processing and for some they need to carry on and do their "thing".   However, it is difficult enough without making it harder on ourselves.    Later Pattye

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  •  06-16-2008, 6:53 AM 55555 in reply to 55532

    Re: Spiral Dynamics Integral

    That makes sense to me how you approach things in that way. Personally, I like to hear other people's processes, particularly a little of the hard stuff that bothers them, shakes their cool, the stuff that isn't part of their cohesive and flowing more or less public personae. I notice that, as you indicate, when I hear a number of different things by ken, there are points where he shows his and speaks of his sticking points and uncertainties. I also notice that I have a quirk that when someone posts or writes/speaks pedantically and specifically pedantically to me, I turn off inside, partly because I hear it as presumptuous - I so prefer to have people speak of their own processes. I often won't respond to someone who is in unbidden knee-jerk teacher mode, advertent or inadvertent. This is one of the things about Ken that I like and that allows me to stay with his material through my learning bumps in the road - he doesn't usually take that brittle teacher mode - well, is so flexible in his presentation style, usually very pleasant to me. I feel lucky for that.

    "Eat crow" was something I heard in New England as well. Yesterday at a park in SoCal, my daughter was noticing a raucusly vocal crow who sat boldly about 12 feet from our heads on a branch as we ate. We spoke of some of the stories that cultures say about crows. Crows and Ravens seem to be in so many places in the world and I think I heard that they are one of the smartest/cleverest animals under the sun.

    Ambo Suno
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  •  06-16-2008, 10:20 PM 55621 in reply to 55454

    Re: Spiral Dynamics Integral

    Hi, Kelly -

    "Aren't we all crazy? . .  :)"

    Thanks, I like to think that we all have the craziness gene that expresses itself now and then when conditions are ripe - (smiling also). But our 'get a grip' messages usually civilize most of us pretty quickly and so we might think we are the only ones.

    Ambo Suno
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