Multiplex: What's New | Site Map | Community | News My Multiplex Account | Sign In 
in Search
Multiplex » Integral Naked Forums » Theory Au Naturel » Re: How do you describe "Integral Truth" ?

How do you describe "Integral Truth" ?

Last post 06-23-2007, 1:39 PM by lotus7. 9 replies.
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  •  05-17-2007, 7:23 AM 22891

    • ZenomOne is not online. Last active: 06-10-2008, 11:38 AM ZenomOne
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 05-10-2007
    • Posts 31
    • Points 590

    How do you describe "Integral Truth" ?

    What draws me here is the word 'INTEGRAL' with its phylosophy & practices !

    KW's life works reflect - in general -  this style of thinking : By combining all possible valid 'theories & practices' . (at least as my understanding KW ) 

    Every existing knowledge (science & so-called non-science) has some valid truth (meaning Incomplete) - Then, by combining All these Partial Truth - we have a Better Truth (but still Incomplete)

    So - what is your own view ? in Part or in Whole

     

    Cheers

     

     

    • Post Points: 35
    • Report abuse
  •  05-17-2007, 9:10 PM 22924 in reply to 22891

    Re: How do you describe "Integral Truth" ?

    Hi Zenomone,

        This is interesting to me...A large portion of people I've spoken with have really describe truth to me in very black and white terms, which always seemed very dualistic and exclusive to me, esp. after having children and realizing as a parent that truth in the mind of a child appears to be very fluid.  A full spectrum of truth like a rainbow if you will.  I also realized that though it often appeared that others were permenately fixated on perhaps a single aspect of truth within the spectrum, that they could and mostly do eventually evolve to see more perspectives of the truth, that as we get older we gain the skills so t speak or ability to see these different aspects, of course their was also the realization that some are just color blind, and that it will always be black and white.  For them it has become a matter of wisdom and compassion to be able to embrace them in their said limited vision of the truth, and that integral truth was not just about my being able to see the full spectrum but to embrace the truth that others may not be abl to see that truth.

    eros y agape
    jess

    Phoenix Rising Higher
    • Post Points: 35
    • Report abuse
  •  05-17-2007, 10:46 PM 22927 in reply to 22924

    • ZenomOne is not online. Last active: 06-10-2008, 11:38 AM ZenomOne
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 05-10-2007
    • Posts 31
    • Points 590

    Re: How do you describe "Integral Truth" ?

    I admire your clarity in your previous post - thanks (my favorite :" ...after having children and realizing as a parent that truth in the mind of a child appears to be very fluid...")

    'Integral Idea' is not NEW - It exists in all civilization - but - somehow the idea can not manifest !!!

    However - I think it is the high time for the power of 'Integral Truth' prevail so the world can have a bright future. Till then, a lot of sincere efforts required to make it happen (so education of our children is the key - "truth in the mind of a child appears to be very fluid" must be preserved & develop to the fullest potential)

    Again, Thanks - Peace be with all of you

    Zenom

     

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  05-18-2007, 8:13 AM 22943 in reply to 22927

    Re: How do you describe "Integral Truth" ?

    "so the education of our children is key" 

    Yes.  Currently in all class' the indoctrination of our children towards funamentalist views verses integral views is rampant.  This halts or rather stunts the consious development of our youth and young adults until they have already recreated those ideas in their own children and do not see the error until they are in there fifties, if at all, as some cling to their stunted growth for fear of facing the truth. 

    eros y agape
    jess

    Phoenix Rising Higher
    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  05-18-2007, 11:16 AM 22952 in reply to 22891

    • ZenomOne is not online. Last active: 06-10-2008, 11:38 AM ZenomOne
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 05-10-2007
    • Posts 31
    • Points 590

    Re: How do you describe "Integral Truth" ?

    Since my first post, I has been googling around & find some very interesting descriptions of 'Integral Truth' on the Web :

     http://www.isss.org/primer/sysquote.htm

    ( No surprise - KW is one)

    http://www.isss.org/primer/primer.htm

    http://www.newciv.org/ISSS_Primer/seminar.html

    there are wealth of info - Explore yourself

    (my favorite is from Goethe - but I can not find it now - since it come from a Poet)

    Cheers

     

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  05-18-2007, 2:01 PM 22959 in reply to 22952

    Re: How do you describe "Integral Truth" ?

    Until one is committed
    there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back,
    always ineffectiveness.

    Concerning all acts of initiative
    and creation,
    there is one elementary truth,
    the ignorance of which kills countless ideas
    and splendid plans,
    that the moment one definitely commits oneself,
    then providence moves too.

    All sorts of things occur to help one
    that would never otherwise have occurred.

    A whole stream of events issues from the decision.

    Raising in one's favor all manner
    of unforseen incidents and meetings
    which no man could have dreamt
    would come his way.

    What you can do or dream you can, begin it.
    Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it.
    Begin it now.

    Goethe 1749-1832


    My mentor gave me that quote, and truely if ever there was a day that I needed to be reminded of it, today was the day.

    eros y agape
    jess

    Phoenix Rising Higher
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  05-18-2007, 4:44 PM 22966 in reply to 22959

    • ZenomOne is not online. Last active: 06-10-2008, 11:38 AM ZenomOne
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 05-10-2007
    • Posts 31
    • Points 590

    Re: How do you describe "Integral Truth" ?

    Isn't it remarkable !

    Starting with my passing curiosity of Goethe's seemingly insignificant description of "Integral Truth" in isss.org (that I could not find in my previous post & still is - it's a simple sentence that i can not recall completely : "my friends, the world is grey...") - then your previous post of Goethe prompts me to search for more Goethe's (poetry is my weak point !!!)

    I wiki around & here are some :

    "Theory of Colours (original German title, Zur Farbenlehre) is a book by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe in 1810. It contains some of the earliest and most accurate descriptions of coloured shadows, refraction, dioptrical colours, and achromatism/hyperchromatism. A number of philosophers and physicists, including Arthur Schopenhauer, Kurt Gödel, Werner Heisenberg, Ludwig Wittgenstein, and Hermann von Helmholtz were fascinated by Goethe's theory. Mitchell Feigenbaum was convinced that 'Goethe had been right about colour!'. Its influence extended to the art world, most notably to J. M. W. Turner. Turner studied it comprehensively and made reference to it in the titles of several paintings"

     

    " When the eye sees a colour it is immediately excited, and it is its nature, spontaneously and of necessity, at once to produce another, which with the original colour comprehends the whole chromatic scale. A single colour excites, by a specific sensation, the tendency to universality. In this resides the fundamental law of all harmony of colours...

    —Goethe, Theory of Colours, p. 317 "

    " Theory of Colours not only parted radically with the dominant Newtonian light and optical theories of his time, but also with the entire Enlightenment methodology of reductive science. Although the theory was not received well by scientists, Goethe – considered one of the most important intellectual figures in modern Europe – thought of his colour theory as his greatest accomplishment. Holistic theorists and scientists such as Rupert Sheldrake still refer to Goethe's Theory of Colours as an inspiring example of holistic science. The introduction to the book lays out Goethe's unique philosophy of science. "

     

    "Today, Goethe's Theory of Colours is still remarkably accurate in its phenomenological observations.[citation needed] In his book Goethe takes isssue with Newton's concept of light and argues that light and dark related as the north and south poles of a magnet, and colour arises from their interplay. This reification of darkness has caused almost all of modern physics to reject Goethe's theory as unscientific. Yet Goethe was consistent in his approach."

    "As Feigenbaum understood them, Goethe's ideas had true science in them. They were hard and empirical. Over and over again, Goethe emphasized the repeatability of his experiments. It was the perception of colour, to Goethe, that was universal and objective. What scientific evidence was there for a definable real-world quality of redness independent of our perception?" (James Gleick, 'Chaos', William Heinemann, London, 1988, pp. 165-7)

    "From the Newtonian standpoint, darkness is an absence of light. According to this view, the light which streams into a dark space has no resistance from the darkness to overcome...

    "Goethe pictures to himself that light and darkness relate to each other like the north and south poles of a magnet. The darkness can weaken the light in its working power. Conversely, the light can limit the energy of the darkness. In both cases colour arises." [2]

    Goethe writes:

    Yellow is a light which has been dampened by darkness; Blue is a darkness weakened by the light. (Theory of Colours, #502) "

     

    ...

    Oh boy - the science of a poet has better truth than that of scientist Newton !!! just remarkable

    Cheers

    PS : Is that Goethe's color terms describe social development stages used by KW !

     

     

     

     

     

     

    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  05-18-2007, 10:35 PM 22979 in reply to 22924

    Re: How do you describe "Integral Truth" ?

    Hi All,

    In regard to seeing truth as black & white and/or as fluid, I find Ken's use of Habermas's validity claims very helpful. For starters, we take some assertions as valid because we believe them to be objectively true, but we also attribute validity to assertions we consider truthful/honest, good/right, etc.

    Devin

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  06-01-2007, 10:34 PM 23792 in reply to 22979

    Re: How do you describe "Integral Truth" ?

    Hi Zenomone,
        Smiles, I re-read this post today and it made me feel at once sad and hopeful.  I have been suffering of late seeing a rainbow and being told to see in black and white, and yet there are those here that see the rainbow as well and are even able to point it out to those who are colorblind and give them vision.  You are one of those few.  Thank you.
    tears in my eyes
    jess

    Phoenix Rising Higher
    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  06-23-2007, 1:39 PM 24810 in reply to 22891

    • lotus7 is not online. Last active: 09-13-2007, 1:52 PM lotus7
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • Californina
    • Posts 6
    • Points 165

    Re: How do you describe "Integral Truth" ?

    Hello ZeroomOne,

    Thanks for starting this thread.

    I, for one, am not much impressed by the process or effectiveness of combining various theories and practices and trying to use that material as a basis for a better view of the whole.

    I have been a bit skeptical and critical of the proliferation of the word 'Integral' in the present-day spiritual arena. Whereas developing an Integral consciousness is certainly a good intention, ideal, ethical approach and philosophy, I don't think that most Integral approaches (including Ken Wilber's) have a true idea of what the word 'Integral' means in terms of really understanding the Earth and the evolution of consciousness in material creation. In my view, an 'Integral' perspective, if it is to really live up to the essence of that word, must encompass the Earth's actual patterns of growth, geography, cycles of time, historical movements, mythologies and such.

    In The Human Cycle, Sri Aurobindo (1872-1950) -  a forefather of all things INTEGRAL - writes about the typical mental use of words as a spinning of fiction, as opposed to the words used by Vedic Seers some 5,000 years ago. Sri Aurobindo understood that a true Seer’s words are connected to their living ROOT (sol/source) and that the connection to and understanding of the hidden realities of creation are not yet filtered out (that is until a lesser Mental perception gets a hold of the words).
     
    'To us poetry is a revel of intellect and fancy, imagination a plaything and caterer for our amusement, our entertainer, the nautch-girl of the mind. But to men of old the poet was a seer, a revealer of hidden truths, imagination no dancing courtesan but a priestess in God's house commissioned not to spin fictions but to image difficult and hidden truths; even the metaphor or simile in the Vedic style is used with a serious purpose and expected to convey a reality, not to suggest a pleasing artifice of thought. The image was to these seers a revelative symbol of the unrevealed and it was used because it could hint luminously to the mind what the precise intellectual word, apt only for logical or practical thought or to express the physical and the superficial, could not at all hope to manifest.' p. 8
     
    Sri Aurobindo describes that a 'curve of degeneration' brings civilization from the Living use of Symbols to what he calls a Typal stage and then into a Conventional stage that may still use some of the symbols and rituals but the real sense is gone and words, symbols, images, rituals religions used for upholding ethical and psychological 'motive and discipline'.
     
    My thoughts are that the word Integral in our modern hands is far from a direct expression of what Integral IS. It seems to me that  we are commonly using the word to describe a attractive and honorable theory of life, but that it is removed from the roots and realities of the living Earth and the Cosmos which must be at the heart of an Integral perspective.

    In reading the Rig Veda and Sri Aurobindo’s The Secret of the Veda, it is revealed that understanding the cycle of the Earth's year in twelve months and  365 days (360 degrees) plays a huge part in developing a truly vast consciousness and perspective of how all things move and breath. Yet so many people in the Integral World seem to have no understanding of Time or the living/divine significance of the year and other cycles in time.

    ‘... the possession of our complete divine consciousness delivered from all falsehood by the free descent of the truth, gives us the secure possession of the world of Swar and the enjoyment of mental and physical being lifted into the godhead above darkness, falsehood and death by the in-streaming of our divine elements. This victory is won in twelve periods of the upward journey, represented by the revolution of the twelve months of the sacrificial year, the periods corresponding to the successive dawns of a wider and wider truth, until the tenth [month] secures the victory.’ - Sri Aurobindo, The Secret of the Veda

    One is the wheel; the bands are twelve;
    three are the hubs – who can understand it?
    Three hundred spokes and sixty in addition
    have been hammered therein and firmly riveted…
    Though manifested, it is yet hidden, secret,
    its name is the Ancient, a mighty mode of being;
    in Skambha is established this whole world;
    therein is set fast all that moves and breathes.
                – Atharva Veda X, 8

    What is the Integral process by which all the unconscious and disconnected parts of the whole grow into an understanding of the whole and the journey by which its original purpose is fulfilled? What is the Integral and seemless process by which we grow from  pure energy, to matter, to life, to life with mind, to a mental creature with connection to Spirit, conscious of the eternal laws and larger patterns of harmony that reside within and evolve out of the original INTENTION (seed) of everything and every one? And the most important question for fellow earthlings concerned with all things Integral:

    Does this cycle of the growth and eventual Victory of a higher consciousness (capable of Integral perception) within material creation and evolution have anything to do with the Earth's own cycles of growth, in terms of years, months, seasons and ages? If not, WHY NOT?. If so ... HOW?,

    The questions posed above arise out of my contact with the yoga and writing of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet, who irreversibly raised the bar for me in terms of what occurs as Integral Truth and what occurs as words with good intentions but little actual power of realization. This link to a book of hers (Symbols and the Question of Unity) gives a feel for her seeing of Integral Truth: http://www.patrizianorellibachelet.com/SQU.html

    Lori Tompkins
    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
View as RSS news feed in XML
 © Integral Institute, 2006. all rights reserved - powered by enlight™ email this page del.icio.us | terms of service | privacy policy | suggestion box | help