Multiplex: What's New | Site Map | Community | News My Multiplex Account | Sign In 
in Search

Zazen

Last post 10-08-2007, 1:01 AM by MiraMiller. 5 replies.
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  •  10-03-2007, 4:34 AM 29442

    Zazen

    Is it possible to speak to the voice of Zazen? Also, I find it interesting that Genpo doesn't find 'following the breath', one of the most beautiful meditations, to be equated with Zen (although he says it can lead to it) and I believe I have found this.

    All the spiritual teachers I am aware of - Eckhart Tolle, Rajneesh, Ken, Fred K, and others recommend breath as the primary practice.

    Also - does one have to go through all the voices in order (I'm referring to the 'excellences' of generosity, joy, meditation, right speech, etc). once one has attained Big Mind or do I have to go through the whole book again to be able to fully access them?

    All interesting questions!

    Love,

    D.

    • Post Points: 35
    • Report abuse
  •  10-03-2007, 10:54 AM 29454 in reply to 29442

    • edison is not online. Last active: 10-15-2007, 6:00 AM edison
    • Top 75 Contributor
    • Joined on 07-03-2006
    • Washington DC metro area
    • Posts 65
    • Points 1,130

    Re: Zazen

    I really don't know the answers to the questions, but I have some suggestions where to look.

    It seems to me that the zazen or shikantaza (sitting without a gaining idea) is the voice of non-seeking mind.  In my experience, it's pretty typical for a Big Mind/Big Heart session to touch upon that aspect and point out that resting non-seeking, non-striving, non-grasping mind is the essence of zazen. 

    Following the breath cultivates the ability to still the mind and body and to pay attention.  I would guess practices such as yoga and T'ai Chi also can also accomplish that result.  That ability does indeed seem to be a valuable abilility to have in the tool box.  I'm relatively sure that Genpo Roshi's not equating following the breath to Zen, does not contradict the other teachers advocation of using that practice.  It is likely a valuable exercise to investigate what you believe "Zen" to be.

    I think it is unhelpful to use the phrase "attain Big Mind."  Since it is unborn, undying, always ever present, it cannot be attained or lost.  I think that Ken's big contribution to Spirituality is to note that as the Kosmos evolves, we humans can grow into higher stages of development, which to me, indicates that there will always be merit to revisiting all the voices as a way of maturing and realizing our full potential.

     

    Brian

    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  10-04-2007, 12:08 AM 29483 in reply to 29442

    Re: Zazen

    Oooh, that was a wonderful answer!

    Thanks!

    D.

    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  10-05-2007, 3:29 AM 29532 in reply to 29442

    Re: Zazen

    "You are just waiting for something to happen, not even expecting, because expectation will again create a ripple of thought and the mind will start functioning. Everything is suspended. You breathe, and that's all that you do. But that is not a doing, because breathing goes on its own accord. You have not to do anything but just sit silently."

    Osho on Zazen.

    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  10-07-2007, 11:05 AM 29626 in reply to 29442

    Re: Zazen

    MiraMiller aka D:
    Also, I find it interesting that Genpo doesn't find 'following the breath', one of the most beautiful meditations, to be equated with Zen (although he says it can lead to it) and I believe I have found this.

    All the spiritual teachers I am aware of - Eckhart Tolle, Rajneesh, Ken, Fred K, and others recommend breath as the primary practice.

    If you read Kapleau's Three Pillars of Zen, I think that it very specifically discusses the way in which they relate breathing to sitting.  First one is taught to count their breaths, then to follow their breaths etc. from there the student will move on to working with a koan or engaging in shikantaza or 'just sitting.'  Following the breath is really just an introductory practice.  Even Ken's frequent encouragement to count breaths is phrased in something like the form of "go count your breaths for five years and then come back and talk to me."  He is not saying that counting breaths is it, it is just enough to get you prepared for the real work.  In fact Ken has elsewhere gone on rants about the nice boys and nice girls that will just have you counting your breaths and otherwise engage in a completely calming friendly practice.  He seems to favor the people who really shake you up and wake you up.  In Zen training at any rate the student progresses beyond following the breath to either a concentration based path (koan study) or a completely trusting the process and not trying to direct anything path (shikantaza).  (See Loori's The Eight Gates of Zen) While the power of the now can be and is a truly wonderful thing, it pales in comparison to the always already.  Zen is not about relaxation or even necessarily feeling good (though both will likely happen from time to time) it is about realizing the real state of things.

    MiraMiller aka D:
    Also - does one have to go through all the voices in order (I'm referring to the 'excellences' of generosity, joy, meditation, right speech, etc). once one has attained Big Mind or do I have to go through the whole book again to be able to fully access them?

    Well, as mentioned previously, Big Mind cannot be attained or avoided.  But the initial recognitions can feel like altered states.  Once you have really 'gotten into' a voice or spoken from it you should be able to just revisit it anytime without having to go through the whole sequence again.  In practice though, you may want to speak to the Controller or the Master first and ask if there are any voices that need to be heard from first.  If there are some dialogue with them first if there are not any then just ask the Controller or Master permission to speak with Big Mind or Non-Seeking Mind or whichever voice it is you want to sit with / talk to.  Many roads lead to Rome, you need not return there by the same one you first traveled.

     

    Mark

    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  10-08-2007, 1:01 AM 29653 in reply to 29442

    Re: Zazen

    Very many thanks for your compassionate insights.

    Love,

    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
View as RSS news feed in XML
 © Integral Institute, 2006. all rights reserved - powered by enlight™ email this page del.icio.us | terms of service | privacy policy | suggestion box | help