Multiplex: What's New | Site Map | Community | News My Multiplex Account | Sign In 
in Search

300 Millionth United Statian

Last post 10-23-2006, 10:39 AM by rkrkrk. 52 replies.
Page 3 of 4 (53 items)   < Previous 1 2 3 4 Next >
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  •  10-17-2006, 2:35 PM 11461 in reply to 11460

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    OK, I guess I stand corrected.  Was that in just one post, though!?  Wink [;)]
    To be nobody-but-yourself -- in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else -- means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop fighting. - E.E.Cummings
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  10-17-2006, 2:45 PM 11462 in reply to 11460

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Tim, I don't think you're even reading my posts all the way through. I favored things like social security. A Nazi idea if ever there was one? Sure, I've read the other posts. I still think you're letting your feelings control the tone of your posts, which read reactive to me.

    How about a point-by-point refutation of whatever post is really bugging you, so we can see your point more clearly?

    Listening,
    Liz

    Upgrade to ISC!
    http://www.integralinstitute.org/public/static/multispirit.aspx
    http://pods.gaia.com/ii
    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  10-17-2006, 2:45 PM 11463 in reply to 11415

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    rkrkrk:

    Some (like the organization Negative Population Growth) believe we are already above the optimum levels and want target goals of 250 million in the U.S. and 3 billion worldwide established..........others think we are OK now but shouldn't go higher (at least until we have demonstrated we can adequately take care of those here already) and others think we have more room for growth.............But why not have that ongoing formal discussion out in the open and set policy accordingly?

    This is the only post in which I can find anything related to numbers...and nowhere do I see a suggestion to kill off people.  Instead, what I read is "some believe...and want to target..."  That, again, is quite different from suggesting that we kill off people.  That could be accomplished by negative population growth.

    The most intense comments I read in this thread were more along the lines of personal attacks directed at others, after an assumption was made based on personal interior reactions, saying something like, "why don't we just kill YOU off?"  Yikes.


    To be nobody-but-yourself -- in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else -- means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop fighting. - E.E.Cummings
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  10-17-2006, 2:48 PM 11465 in reply to 11461

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    No, it's at least also in a few posts before Vortex, myself and our children were brought into the conversation as those -"jokingly"-being the ones going over the "limit."

    Oh, but since it's a "joke" ha ha at least we will still always come out smellin' like roses.

    Arthur, Thank God you did not make the mistake your parents did.

    Peace, Tim


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
    • Post Points: 65
    • Report abuse
  •  10-17-2006, 2:50 PM 11466 in reply to 11463

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    colinwolf:

    This is the only post in which I can find anything related to numbers...and nowhere do I see a suggestion to kill off people.  Instead, what I read is "some believe...and want to target..."  That, again, is quite different from suggesting that we kill off people. 

    But how does it logically work out any other way? Seriously. How?

    And how does it also not work out that I am obviously okay but those extra 3.5 billion aren't?


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  10-17-2006, 2:53 PM 11470 in reply to 11465

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    See, Tim, I guess I interpreted that totally differently.  No harm in being the one to bring the 300 millionth kid into the world.  If you and Arther have some long-standing issues, that didn't come through in the posts that I read, other than the blatant flames that you threw.  It seemed like a tiny little joke based on the fact that you two DO have more kids than most.  From my perspective, big deal.
    To be nobody-but-yourself -- in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else -- means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop fighting. - E.E.Cummings
    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  10-17-2006, 3:01 PM 11471 in reply to 11465

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    timelody:

    No, it's at least also in a few posts before Vortex, myself and our children were brought into the conversation as those -"jokingly"-being the ones going over the "limit."

    Oh, but since it's a "joke" ha ha at least we will still always come out smellin' like roses.

    Arthur, Thank God you did not make the mistake your parents did.

    Peace, Tim

    Sounding a little sanctimonious, Timelody, but you're very welcome.

    You know, I actually thought that people who

    a) are hanging out in integral spaces and

    b) have lots of kids

    might have something interesting (and balanced or nuanced) to say on the topic.  Something other than: you're a fuckin' Nazi if you even question any sort of human population control, hands off my balls motherfucker.  Perhaps this was a naive hope on my part.

    I also apologise - since apology is evidently called for on my part - for introducing you to the topic in a jocular fashion.  I thought it might defuse a potentially volatile topic but well...

    Might I also respectfully suggest the possibility that there may be something in your rather extreme reactivity on this topic that might, possibly, be worth looking into?  If not, then please, do carry on.

    spiral out,

    arthur


    I am seeking meaningful work.

    bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

    I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

    "You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn
    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  10-17-2006, 4:12 PM 11481 in reply to 11465

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    timelody:

    Arthur, Thank God you did not make the mistake your parents did.

    Peace, Tim



    Tim, I take it back; you're not being reactive, you're being an asshole. Take a breather, will you please?

    Liz

    Upgrade to ISC!
    http://www.integralinstitute.org/public/static/multispirit.aspx
    http://pods.gaia.com/ii
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  10-17-2006, 4:22 PM 11484 in reply to 11481

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Hi all,

    It's like the network news cycle here.  Population politics and personal epithets have already replaced "Ban Helene" and "What's with Lightfield" on the cover of the Integral Inquirer.

    But, while I no longer watch network news and only glance at the tabloids while waiting to check out at the local Winn-Dixie, I "religiously" read the forums daily. 

    And let's hear it for both the "Tim & family" unit as well as for the "Liz & Arthur" unit . Units are good.

    MarkD


    Just enough enlightenment for this time around, please.
    • Post Points: 35
    • Report abuse
  •  10-17-2006, 4:33 PM 11485 in reply to 11484

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    I really don’t have a dog in this fight here but will only say that I don’t care how many children are born, but wish people were taught somewhere

     

    HOW TO RAISE CHILDREN!

     

    We don’t learn it at home, in school, so I think that should be concentrated on rather than how many children people have.

     

    To put the modern intrest of this topic in perspective:

     

    The population explosion thing came about 34 years ago when an elitist think tank in 1972, the Club of Rome, published the best seller “The Limits to Growth” that predicted dire consequences if population is not controlled. (By the way, this is the group, whose forum I have claimed to have brought down) that though had nothing to do with the population thing, just my ego.

     

    The Club OF Rome many people believe is the most elitist and powerful think tank in the world, whose population theories many are weary of.

     

     

    http://www.clubofrome.org/

    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  10-17-2006, 5:11 PM 11491 in reply to 11484

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Hands off my unit, dude - it's taken.  Stick out tongue [:P]

    arthur


    I am seeking meaningful work.

    bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

    I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

    "You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn
    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  10-17-2006, 5:26 PM 11492 in reply to 11466

    • maryw is not online. Last active: 09-04-2008, 12:45 PM maryw
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-18-2006
    • southern California
    • Posts 422
    • Points 8,020

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Tim, when you ask this question:

    But how does it logically work out any other way? Seriously. How?

    it sounds to me like you're assuming that people are suggesting a genocide of 3.5 billion people now or in the near future -- which in turn presumes that the "population controllers" here unanimously agree that there are 3.5 billion too many people currently living (and that "killing them off" is a feasible option!). But I find no such assertions in this thread. If you do, could you tell me where they are, or where they've been implied?

    What I see instead is people suggesting that we find ways to curb or slow down population growth by means of information access, incentives, and compromise rather than coercive tactics, such as what Tam-Liz suggested:

    plentiful access to birth control, etc., is all I have in mind

    and what colinwolf suggested:

    In my super duper world crisis solution, written on the inside of a Starbucks hot cup sleeve in Stuart Davis' new IS language (he doesn't know I co-opted it from the Global Matrix of Consciousness...shhhhh),  people would evolve to the level at which they realize that unlimited pop growth is probably unsustainable and then chooose to not have more than x number of children, or trade kid kards with those that abdicate their right. 

    Again, I don't see anyone saying we need to "get rid" of 3.5 billion people this instant--or ever, actually-- but rather suggestions on how we might arrive at a sustainable population of humans on this planet, a long-term project that would would take decades, even centuries, to come to fruition (pun kind of intended ...)  

    My two cents,

    Mary

     

     


    Let the beauty we love be what we do.
    There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground.

    ~Rumi
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  10-17-2006, 8:35 PM 11522 in reply to 11492

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Thank you maryw - thats all anyone is saying.  Encourage population GROWTH to slow by non-coersive means such as economic incentives.  With these kinds of programs we can get to a place where your average couple has two or fewer kids.  People who want more are free to do so - the goal is to get the AVERAGE down - again,  through non-coersive means.  One of the best ways to do this is to raise the standard of living,  provide better social security,  etc - things which are believed by many to have resulted in negative-population growth in the developed world.

    In most of the developed world,  people already have fewer than two children on average.  All we have to do is spread the wealth,  and develope and distribute the technologies to make this ecologically feasable. 

    To borrow a phrase from the corporate world,  the best policy is through attrition - get to a place where more people are dying (naturally) than are being born.  We can do this without shooting anyone in the head or forcing abortions on people.  It will take several generations,  but that is generally understood.  No one is talking about reducing the population by the end of the decade.  Current projections have growth leveling off by the middle of the century - if we change none of our policies.  The problem is that we will be dealing with an enormous population at that point - one that current technology will not allow us to sustain without great cost to the biosphere and everyones' quality of life.  And I'm not talking about a few more extinct species - I'm talking about total ecological collapse,  irreversable,  catastrophic degradation that can never be repaired.  Sterile oceans,  barren deserts where forests once stood.  At that point,  the population problem takes care of itself.

    Let me put it this way:  no species can multiply unchecked without eventually reaching a point of catastrophic collapse.  Humans have no predators,  so the only natural check on our growth are pandemic disease and running out of resources. 

    When the biosphere collapses and 20 billion people find themselves starving to death - is that really preferable to more widely available contraception and tax incentives to have no more than two children?  Encouraging a stable population through non-coercive means is the most compassionate position I can imagine.  It has nothing to do with LR vs UL.  The potential UL suffering if we do nothing is staggering.

    Reducing population growth and increasing the standard of living of EVERYONE go hand in hand - the later results in the former.  What's so bad about that?  People with a retirement savings don't need to have 12 kids - and this is why MOST people on this planet have more than two kids,  in the hopes that some of them will survive and stick around to take care of them when they are too old to do it themselves.  There are no retirement comunities or social security checks in the third world.

    Mike
    • Post Points: 35
    • Report abuse
  •  10-17-2006, 10:55 PM 11536 in reply to 11522

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Damn.

    For the record folks, I merely stated that ideas (in one post in particular) being presented were tried in the 40's by the Nazi's. I didn't call anyone a Nazi and I didn't infer anyone on this forum was one.

    If you took it that way, apologies. I can argue a point without throwing such cards out.

    In hindsight, I should have quoted the post I was referring to to clarify what I was talking about. Never in my mind did I think people would think I was calling them something so vile.

    -V





    In a black and white picture....there's a lot of grey junk
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  10-18-2006, 7:59 AM 11558 in reply to 11536

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    I find it SO fascinating that people selectively read posts and then interpret them based on what they were expecting to see.  (I'm certainly not immune to this.)  Ah, the reality of human conversation...and this is all in print! 

    No one made any mention of feeling like the Nazi post was calling anyone here a Nazi.  It was just a bit reactionary seeming to play the Nazi card, given the lack of anyone talking about coercive population control.  Why not throw in the China card instead?  Confused [*-)]


    To be nobody-but-yourself -- in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else -- means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop fighting. - E.E.Cummings
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
Page 3 of 4 (53 items)   < Previous 1 2 3 4 Next >
View as RSS news feed in XML
 © Integral Institute, 2006. all rights reserved - powered by enlight™ email this page del.icio.us | terms of service | privacy policy | suggestion box | help