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bipolar or waking up?

Last post 12-01-2007, 1:48 AM by desrice. 50 replies.
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  •  11-14-2007, 7:15 AM 31884 in reply to 31871

    Re: bipolar or waking up?

    One of the most empowering distinctions that has made a difference in my life, towards my wellbeing ,has been to question how I know what I know.  We come into this plane of existence with reality sort of already defined , ie'  this is good that is bad, she is right, he is wrong. This type of knowing , this epistomology  is thus thinking us , defining our experiences, and who we really are as Self, never shows up.  Now we need this type of knowing  for surviving but it does little to free us up, in fact it tends to trap us  with its already defined world.. I bring this up in context of this thread because of my own struggles with depresion and anxiety.  In my past I would have these experiences and how they were defined for the most part by the medical community  was there is something wrong with you and thus they push for pills and medication.  Not until I began to question  how I know what I know did I have a breakthrough with my wellbeing. So now when I experience my experiences of life I know them within a context of appreciation. It has beem my experience when I choose to appreciate my sadness, or even pain , those experiences tend to pass, for I now choose to know all my experiences as already existing within mySelf, . and not by the system of agreement which tends to say this is good that is bad ,thus being at the effect of the system. I hope this helps someone.  All it takes is some courage and some persistance to create your life to come from the Self.
    Bill Kilburg,
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  •  11-14-2007, 7:24 AM 31885 in reply to 31871

    Re: bipolar or waking up?

    Yes, I think most of us are in basically similar conditions of life and death and what's in-between, The in-between is a wild ride for many of us, daignostic label or not. When it get's too wild, we all do what we have to, be it prescription or street drugs, beaucoup distractions and consolations, defenses and strategies of various types and levels.

    ".  It takes perceptiveness and care and caution and daring and love to find the way through."
    Yes, that sounds right. I happen to like how you expressed these in-common and yet different life situations that we each find ourselves in. Out of balance, discombobulated, "off my rocker".

    I want to see the movie you recommend, Res. You prompted me to take a glimpse online and it does catch my interest.

    Yep, we gotta do the walkin and not just the talkin. I'm starting to get to be able to talk some surf jive - but I can't stand up on a board. Smiles.



    Ambo Suno
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  •  11-14-2007, 11:02 PM 31916 in reply to 31885

    Re: bipolar or waking up?

    I have been especially delighted by reading everyone's posts in this thread. Thank you to everyone who has been contributing your valuable experiences and perspectives. Reflecting on the past 10 years of my life, I am clear that I have done an outrageous amount of analysis in an effort to work out what the underlying patterns and causes behind intense mood swings are. About five years of that time for me were spent moving daily between both anxiety/panic attacks, and dissociation/depression. I sort of see that polarity as my own expression of bipolar at the time. Figuring this stuff out within the realm of language seems completely overwhelming at times because there are just so many factors involved. It seems that taking an integral approach, by necessity, increases that complexity many fold! Yet I am committed to the continual development of a world-view that represents reality as accurately as possible, or to say it another way, a worldview that includes everything it needs to in order to be complete. I just feel sometimes that one thing that contributes so much to perpetuating human suffering (and especially in the context of bipolar) is being stuck in our heads - so to speak. I have really had a hard time trying to resolve the question of "what is thinking too much?" It's something i've been accused of my whole life, and my reaction has always been "I think exactly as much as I need to, no less!" - so anyways it's been a fun adventure for me trying to strike a balance between analysis and.... well... what else is there? ;)

    I think Ambo, for me, has helped shed a lot of light on the larger contexts that this all falls within, which I had been missing. I also find what Kincaid is saying about focusing a lot on the "energy" to be very interesting.

    And to answer Pattye, yes I am completly commited to bettering myself. I have a vision of what is possible for me (and IMO all human beings) and I will most likely die in the process of actualizing it. The path for me is really simple - I worship pure reason. My fundamental assumption towards life and the universe is that everything that occurs has a rational explanation, period. Sometimes that explanation is complex, and it takes a life, or even a thousand years, to finally arrive at the crossroads of magic and science. I believe that there is nothing in this universe that is unexplainable - and - I could spend a lifetime seeking answers and die before I ever find them. This way has led me to many, many answers. Most of them valid - explaining the things they do explain in accordance with physical reality - but still incomplete, still just fragments of the puzzle. I have liberated myself from many vices through the worship and pursuit of reason. Yet - I have also turned into a GREYFACE! (see notes at bottom)

    So I have decided to re-institute the concept of fun and play in my life, right alongside with reason. It just seems like a really good idea, thats all. Cheers!




    From Wikipedia:

    The Curse of Greyface

    The Curse of Greyface is one of the most important parts of Discordianism. It features prominently on several pages of the Principia Discordia. According to the Principia, Greyface was a man who lived in the year 1166 BC and taught that life is serious and play is sin. The curse is a psychological and spiritual imbalance that results from these beliefs.

    The Curse

    Greyface encouraged his followers to "Look at all the order around you" (Principia Discordia page 00042) and somehow convinced mankind to agree with his ideas about Serious Order. The Principia notes that it is something of a mystery why Greyface gained so many followers when anyone could have looked at all of the disorder in the world.

    Greyface and his followers took the game of playing at life more seriously than they took life itself and were known even to destroy other living beings whose ways of life differed from their own. – Malaclypse the Younger, Principia Discordia Page 00042

    Order/disorder and constructive/destructive

    By accepting that life is a serious, orderly matter, the followers of Greyface end up viewing things as either orderly or disorderly. In this system, order is preferred to disorder at all costs. This preference results in both constructive order and destructive order.

    The alternative is to view things as either constructive or destructive. In this system, construction is preferred to destruction. Selecting construction results in both constructive order and constructive disorder.

    Counteracting the curse

    [M]ankind has […] been suffering from a psychological and spiritual imbalance. Imbalance causes frustration, and frustration causes fear. And fear makes for a bad trip. Man has been on a bad trip for a long time now. – Malaclypse the Younger, Principia Discordia Page 00042

    The human race will begin solving it's [sic] problems on the day that it ceases taking itself so seriously. – Malaclypse the Younger, Principia Discordia page 00074

    In addition to the generic advice of culturing your natural love of chaos and playing with Her, the Principia Discordia provides "The Turkey Curse Revealed by the Apostle Dr. Van Van Mojo" to counteract The Curse of Greyface. The Turkey Curse is designed to counteract destructive order. It derives its name from the fact that the incantation resembles the sounds of a turkey.






    "Like the legendary Ko-ko bird, we follow our own tail around in ever-narrowing circles, but unlike that mythic bird we never complete the process by flying up our own rectums and disappearing."
    -Robert Anton Wilson
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  •  11-15-2007, 7:28 AM 31930 in reply to 31838

    Re: bipolar or waking up?

    This early AM, I'm reminded again that our understanding is so partial.  What I have said is so partial and therefore limited in its description of the situation(s) and therefore limited in understanding the situation in a helpful, useable way. At the moment I can see that its understandable that we are partial. Those who have spoken about themselves personally have spoken from the the particulars of feeling and understanding that moved them when they wrote and what's been moving in them for sometime. Myself and those who wrote a little more from a 3rd person perspective are probably likewise coming from and thereby limited by our feelings, understanding and history.

    This AM I have been reminded that I wrote out of my favorite mode which is with some interest/feeling/motivation/enthusiasm/passion, as my past experiences and understanding get to be put in some order. However, I'm in reaction, too. I'm in reaction to the particular points of view explicitly stated and implicitly suggested. I'm in reaction to all that gets stirred up in me by these points of view and opinions - plenty of which is my own unresolved, unfinished business about the subjects. Like "mental illness", like diagnosis, like solutions to, and specific treatments of the diagnosed condition and the person - in this case bipolar, and the treatment of all of the surrounding people and conditons that have been impacted within the complex system of family and tribe. I am moved by my relatively strong emotions of so many sorts and the both extensive and very limited , organized and fragmented cognitive renderings of the situation so influenced in the moment by my feelings and you all's feelings.

    So my mind was occupied this early AM with trying to sort it out, get it more true.

    I came upon the idea of looking at through an integral model (wow, what a concept - I'm on an integral site, maybe I can go beyond my own favorite, idiosynacratic, passionate and creativish renderings and look at it systematically.) In a way my minds attempts to sort and pattern and include more was an integrating process on it's own, but what if I/we used this one developing, already highly articulated model. Not my style, lately, but maybe moving away from my self and its complexity as the central organizer of this material would yield a larger truth and be more helpful in a good way. It's hard to leave me and my schticks and styles as I write now, but early, being thought through this, it made sense to try to explore this more systematically, using an AQAL approach.

    So I want to try this. I have to get ready to go to early work very soon, so I won't be able to get into it so much. I am a little afraid that my interest and energy will wane, I will feel it as a chore rather than an inspiration of self-expression and understanding (somewhat related of the theme of bipolarity). We'll see - I think I'll try it. Maybe others will too.

    Returning to the title and topic of the thread, "bipolar or waking up", and acknowledging that this thread arose out of chris's real feelings, questions and sorting through of information, might help this 'analysis' stay focused in a way that doesn't get too abstract, that still touches the personal. Other people have added their stories and struggles and working throughs. I can tend to get abstract and onto my own favorite trails and flow states, and forget the people around me - in this case the sources of the reasl issue. I want to acknowledge that this is very personal to me, and I am sometimes a little cagey about that. I called my relationship to this, my interior, capricious. At the time that's how it felt - not a big problem - even a slightly playful and humors sense of my multiplexity, fragmentary movements, and inner conundrums. At times my interior has felt and does feel intollerably messy and problematic - leading to more fear, shame and self-criticism and corrosion.

    So much rearrangement in my considerations of this topic happened in the early AM's mental journey, that I am afraif I will forget some of the wafting threads of thought in this hugely complex consideration of bipolar and life (I have a feeling that I will need to leave behind some the larger  originally implied question of whether chris was experiencing an awakening, or whether he should call the experience a "bipolar" condition and maybe disorder to be treated and stay with more the bipolar. But maybe not.) Getting online this AM, I saw livingegg's post and had to restrain myself from reading and engaging it, because I might lose my threads of intention and thought. I also notice in a passing glance that I may not have given enough attention to understanding what Pattye was trying to convey - that made me think that in my rush towards self-expression before, I may have missed alot contained in what others said. But I want to move ahead with this idea of AQALing the situation somewhat. I really have to cut this short now, this AM.

    Before I stop, I want to say that in looking through an integral lens we/I might want to include a number of questions and issues that are considered through each quadrant, and various lines, levels and such. What comes to mind are: Who noticed that there was a condition or problem - self or another? How did the intention to address this move - in the self or the others, like family and friends. What was the readiness for change at different points, like at the beginning of noticing (I'm thinking of Prochaska's stages of readiness for change.) How is this condition understood - is it a disorder, a disease, maybe simply a way of being, a growth struggle and opportunity, or an "awakening"? How is it, how might it be characterized? What would be a proper addressing of the condition - again an AQAL coverage might be possible? Would this condition, should this condition be addressed? Is this an issue of the individual self who people are looking at, or of the concerned group, at given points over time? Do we try to change ourselves, the self, the others, the various and excedingly huge, complex contexts in which all conditions nest ? (This would be a huge AQAL task) or allow no-change? (change is happening to some extent anyway, always.) Does this need to be resolved? How? Treatment?

    Ohmagod - this feels intimidatingly big. And am I/are we trying to reinvent the wheel that Ken already laid out? Or is this an application? Or practice? Or a neurotic compulsion on my part, a mental process on the loose?  [sorta, self-deprecating, ironic smile]

    Maybe this is enough for now or forever. I gotta run. Please excuse the self-involved tone of this. Apparently so far I can't avoid it and yet keep writing - yet.

    Thanks, ambo

    PS - ayeii - I notice there's a lot to edit and no time - I hate that - later, I'll try.



    Ambo Suno
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  •  11-23-2007, 4:24 PM 32384 in reply to 30681

    Re: bipolar or waking up?

    coriander akai desu
    "Ω =∞x∞^∞" - Wayne Teasdale
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  •  11-24-2007, 11:02 PM 32452 in reply to 32384

    Re: bipolar or waking up?

    what does this mean mcenter?
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  •  11-27-2007, 10:11 PM 32602 in reply to 32452

    Re: bipolar or waking up?

    well kens latest video cleared up some stuff.
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  •  11-27-2007, 10:17 PM 32603 in reply to 32602

    Re: bipolar or waking up?

    Chris, that's good to hear. I appreciated some things about the exchange as well. I personally hope you keep us posted. ambo

    Ambo Suno
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  •  11-28-2007, 9:15 AM 32625 in reply to 32603

    Re: bipolar or waking up?

    I will, I'm on a mood stabilazer called lamictal riht now and the plan is to stay on it for a year and then based on how things are going I can slowly get off of it. This is because there is only a 20% chance of having and episode relapse if you wait a year to get off meds as oppose to a 60-80% chance for people who dont cooperate and dont take meds right away. and the lamicatal seems to be startin to work so thats good
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  •  11-28-2007, 10:48 PM 32656 in reply to 32625

    Re: bipolar or waking up?

    yo!
    Ambo Suno
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  •  11-29-2007, 6:57 PM 32713 in reply to 32656

    Re: bipolar or waking up?

    Yes!   Paying attention and doing your homework and making the best decisions you can is your truth.  It does not get better than that.  And even if there are changes, there are blessings with the struggle.  Once again,  Carolyn writes about illness and the blessing that come to the Soul which when stronger than the body is a very healthy and Blessed gift coming from the perserverance and struggle.  And with all the info out there today, hopefully, you will find the physical comfort also.  I wish that for you and I am with you in Spirit.   Love Pattye

    PS  Chris,  I know who Wayne Teasdale is, I think but the rest is Greek to me.

    And Compact:   There are two PM's since I had to change batteries in my computer and stopped the first cold and then started another.    Shadow Dancing.

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  •  11-29-2007, 8:27 PM 32724 in reply to 32713

    Re: bipolar or waking up?

    Life is not worth Living
    "Ω =∞x∞^∞" - Wayne Teasdale
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  •  11-29-2007, 9:12 PM 32728 in reply to 32724

    Re: bipolar or waking up?

    I just discovered an interesting theory that makes some pretty bold claims about what mental illness is. I found it very relevant to this conversation (particularly relevant to bi-polar) and i'm considering including some of the perspectives and techniques into my ILP, so I thought I would share and see what everyone thinks. A lot of it resonates with me and I think it points out some very interesting things, although admittedly it is far from integral. I'll summarize it here, and then i'll post a link to the full article.

    Toxic Mind Theory and Redirecting Self-Therapy (RST)

    A neurologist named Ellie Van Winkle came up with this theory, which I feel bears some similar parallels to primal therapy. Her main claims are to the scientific (neurological) evidence surrounding this theory. A scientific paper is provided along with the laymens one, but I don't understand it too well as I am not a neurologist! Anyways, i'll hilight the key points.

    -- Mental Illness such as chronic anxiety, bipolar, depression, and even parkinsons disease, are a result of the chronic play of symptoms of detoxification crisis in the body.
    -- Detoxification Crisis is the brains attempt to clear out neurological pathways that get clogged and dysfunctional as a result of repressing powerful emotions, particularly those having occured through early trauma, and particularly the repression of anger.
    -- Detoxification Crisis causes excitatory symptoms, which when occuring chronically and over time, develop into what we call mental illness. The particular symptoms and type of mental illness are different because the toxicosis can occur in different areas of the brain, thus interfering with different kinds of functions.
    -- Mood swings, especially between extreme highs and then depression, are one of the most typical results of toxicosis.
    -- The ideal way to deal with this is to recognize toxification crisis by noticing the excitatory symptoms (such as fear, anxiety, cravings, addictions, nervousness, inattentiveness, etc) and the to express the emotion (particularly anger) FULLY and along the correct neurological pathway that is in toxicosis.
    -- Usually this means beating the hell out of a pillow with a bat, or whatever, while visualizing your parents, or some other early childhood figure who is near or around the source of initial trauma.
    -- Being in the habbit of always recognizing detoxification crisis and then redirecting the anger towards its original source in your mind, nearly all day, is called RST (redirectional self therapy).
    -- There is anger at the root of every excittatory symptom. The hard work is being able to find it, and the redirecting it.
    -- You do not have to remember the original trauma or incident to do this. Only that the result should be the emotion being released along the correct neurological pathway and not diverted or suppressed.
    -- After redirecting successfully, you may experience a general "high" or very good feeling. This is associated with very specific neurotransmitters and chemicals that are triggered. Because of this you will most likely feel depressed and tired for some time after.
    -- Many people can use RST to successfully break a long depression within an hour. RST is fun because its like the opposite of Tonglen. Sometimes we all want to do the opposite of Tonglen. Come on, admit it! ;)
    -- After practicing this for a few months on a consistent basis, things start to level out. When 95% of the repressed emotions are released and detoxification crisis does not occur very often anymore, you have reached what Ellie calls post-flood, which is also post-primal.
    -- At this point you should begin to identify with Arthur Janov's criteria for a "normal" person. I quote:

    Cure is not a good word because there may always be some toxicosis, but post-flood people generally enjoy good mental and physical health. Here are some comments from Janov's post-primal people and from my own experience: "I feel alive, yet calm and content. My life is simpler. I do less, go less, want less, talk less, everything is less. I can stop thinking about something, no more compulsive thinking or behavior. I trust my feelings now rather than others' feelings.

    No one pushes me around. I am more patient and tolerant and don't blow up. I am never depressed or moody. I can sustain a relationship. I can see into people, their needs and pain. I am less rigid. I am alone a lot, but not lonely. I don't get sucked into other peoples troubles. My face has changed. I stand a walk like a child. I don't take on impossible projects. I finish what I start, yet don't have to compulsively finish everything instantly. I can concentrate. I can accept but don't need compliments. I sing better, play chess better. I eat only natural foods."

    Here are some other changes. Blood pressure, temperature, and pulse normalize. No more palpitations. Fasting glucose and cholesterol levels are lower. Hypothyroidism disappears. No more colds or other acute disorders. Digestion is good. Relief from constipation, headaches, allergies, backaches, colitis, peptic ulcer, dizziness, alcoholism and all other addictions, menstrual cramps. skin disorders, stomach pains, nausea, and teeth grinding. I have not found relief from osteoarthritis. I fall asleep easily and sleep restfully, but no more heavy drug like sleep. No nightmares. My weight never changes. My posture is relaxed. Breathing easier and more deeply. Decreased sex frequency, more pleasure.

    I am friendly and enjoy people, yet protect my privacy. I find I am open and intimate with most everyone I meet, able to give and receive love. I laugh easily and cry easily. The tears are no longer about myself, but usually out of compassion for others. I work when I feel like it and play in between. My fight or flight reaction is restored. When I am abused or threatened I know whether to fight or flee. If my anger is aroused I am able to express it in non-violent ways. Once expressed I feel love for the person who offended me. My anger is not intense and is primarily about the current situation. No more resentments.

    I can flash back to very early experience with out painful feelings. I did not consciously forgive my parents, but now that the anger is gone, I can truly love my parents and all others who may have abused me. The flood of neurotransmitters that represented repressed anger and grief is gone. When a flood is gone the basin is bound to be a bit muddy, and there may always be some old emotions mixed in with new ones, but I believe the God Within me has been restored and has brought me to a place of sustainable peace and joy.

    So there it is folks. I'd be interested to know if any of you have heard of this, or have any experience with primal therapy. I have been keeping an eye on primal therapy for years, but I have only found one primal therapist in denver and I dont think they want to take me as a client - perhaps i'm too analytical. ;) Anyways I have some points of doubt about RST. Most importantly, there is little distinction made between redirecting anger and merely acting out. Anyways, here are some links if you want to read up further on RST:

    The Biology of Emotions
    Copy of Ellies Site

    "Like the legendary Ko-ko bird, we follow our own tail around in ever-narrowing circles, but unlike that mythic bird we never complete the process by flying up our own rectums and disappearing."
    -Robert Anton Wilson
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  •  11-30-2007, 7:59 AM 32749 in reply to 32728

    Re: bipolar or waking up?

    Just wanted to say to livingegg a thank you for the material you post hear at I-I. Trully contributes to my wellbeing and I take as well for many others. Great work livingegg.
    Bill Kilburg,
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  •  11-30-2007, 10:00 AM 32759 in reply to 32749

    Re: bipolar or waking up?

    agreed
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