Thanks G.

Props to you, I think you've caught me spinning my wheels in my own little shadow loop.  And I mean it, because that's an eye-opener for me.  Thanks.

And, yes, I agree, it's something we both seem to be doing.  I felt that way after your first post in this thread, and I think we probably have a few things we could learn from each other. 

Here's to future progress, and future detaching from progress, heh...

Cheers!

 

K

Thanks K\Ressurected I consider you my brother .

 

This weekend I am strongly resisting suicidal acts.
It began one night when I was plainly missing my mother (died of a vicious brain cancaer when I was 17). Then I was saddened at the complete lack of my remaining family member to be there for me. I know everyone has problems with their family. I simply cannot contain it. They just deserted me, left me to my own. It is a tragic burden I sometimes cannot contain... how many 24 y.o. have to deal with that?
After than, come all the rejections of the past week\month\year\life of me always trying- sometimes quietly, sometimes more desperately- to just have friends. 99% of everyone I ever met has not kept in contact with me.

In fact, this happens so frequently that I expect it, and to my horror, it does repeat itself. I try so many approaches, but the bottom line is that, if I do not act (make a phonecall), nobody calls me, ever. Sometime this burden is too heavy. I have spent years with many therapists- some helped to some degree- but this loneliness seems really like a curse, a curse unfitting my kind manners and gentle spirit. I'd love to pretend I am not dependant on any people or family needs and that past rejections are "past". But I can't. I don't have the framework to do that. I wish there would be much more grace in my life. I know that being already at 24 with this condition, with this inability to sustain any friendship nor to gain any attention, is very bleak and definately not worth living.
I did a voice dialogue with the "Sorrow"-self and I couldn't draw any insights, perhaps the suggestion of being more in the sun and seeing more Yellow around me. How pathetic. :-(
I have been through this cycle of an absolutely dead and lonely weekend throughout most of my life. I have been through this phases of making desperate phonecalls where I would break into tears, and the few people would try to comfort me.. I don't want that, I want friends, I want people who are slightly interested in me, who would not so fucking quickly hurry to distance themselves, the amount of people who stopped responding to any message\call even if we did get along fine is unbelievable. I don't "look" like the lonely guy, I don't "look" initially so desperate;
How can I meet new people without getting into this unusual past? pretty quickly  people know I don't have any friends or family. Most people cannot contain my past pain, that, even when I am uplifted, seeps through my eyes I think. I was rarely treated lovingly in my life certainly in the past years and I don't understand how can it NOT show. So this further restricts my ability to be with people. Ideally they (and I) should just accept this.. and I know of many pretty fucked up people who still manage to find their niche \ support... I however fail at this time and time again.
AT present, I don't feel I comprehend anything, I have no idea who would not run away from me for no apparent reason, I don't know how to sustain the relevancy of relationships, I don't know that stuff, I miss my mother  s o  m u c h

am so close to suicide shit sorry folks am hopeless soul sorry :(
would there be anyone relevant graceful enough in my life to be a friend... i cant pretend i dont have this unusual lonely history please god...:(

hey my man , life is empty and meaningles and it is empty and meaningless that it is empty and meaningless. what your are stating are the fact of your life. like nobody fucking calls, 99 percent of the people who you meet dont stay in contact, mom died of brain cancer, and so on . those are some of the facts you have stated about your life.  What I am attempting to communicate to you is I to have some of the same facts you got but I have learned to not make it mean anything. The stuff of our life is not what does the damage , it is the add on interpretaion we make those facts mean. The truth is whats so it is also so what.  You get back to nothing by allowing life to be the way it is, Now go create a life worth LIVING .......now

---

Bill Kilburg,

I can relate to your suffering buddy. Sometimes no matter what I have learned or practiced I simply feel like shit. Thank you for sharing your pain. Here is a quote from ken that provides me with some comfort, maybe it will help you as well. Be well my friend!!!

"The movement of descent and discovery begins at the moment you consciously become dissatisfied with life. Contrary to most professional opinion, this gnawing dissatisfaction with life is not a sign of 'mental illness,' nor an indication of poor social adjustment, nor a character disorder. For concealed within this basic unhappiness with life and existence is the embryo of a growing intelligence, a special intelligence usually buried under the immense weight of social shams. A person who is beginning to sense the suffering of life is, at the same time, beginning to awaken to deeper realities, truer realities. For suffering smashes to pieces the complacency of our normal fictions about reality, and forces us to become alive in a special sense – to see carefully, to feel deeply, to touch ourselves and our worlds in ways we have heretofore avoided. It has been said, and truly I think, that suffering is the first grace. In a special sense, suffering is almost a time of rejoicing, for it marks the birth of creative insight."

Ken Wilber

G,

I get it, man.  I really do.  I haven't lost anyone close to me yet, but I do know what it's like to feel as alienated and shunned as you describe, and to really truly honestly be at a total loss as to WHY.  It seems to make no sense why people would distance themselves, why they would look at you sideways and wonder what's up with you, why they would just act awkward and obviously want to be distracted and find some excuse to walk away... but they do, and you're the one that gets to suffer for it.  And it hurts.  It really does.  It hurts a lot.  And the loneliness is endless, bottomless, inconsolable.

I spent years in depression feeling these feelings.  The despair really is a crushing weight.  The invitability of it once it starts used to fill me with bitterness at the unfairness of it, but then the sadness and loneliness and isolation would bring despair and the bitterness would fade, leaving only darkness and a desire to be free of the pain.

And then I heard this idea in one of my classes.  It was a philosophy class, and the philosopher we were talking about was Albert Camus.  He said something to the effect that the only real decision any of us ever really has to make is whether or not to kill ourselves.  Once you decide to stick around, the path is obvious, in a general sense.  It is a choice to carry the burden and do what needs doing.  It's a choice to make the best of what you have, because if you're gonna stick around, what's the point in half-assing it?

I don't know how to explain what you're going through, I don't know why things are that way, but I do know that folks like you and I are cursed with a kind of hyper-sensitivity to other people.  We think deeply, we feel maybe a little too intensely, and we're just a little too curious about the inner workings of ourselves, and by extension the inner workings of others... and I think all of that together makes a lot of people uncomfortable.  I think of it as something of a reflection of their insecurity.  We're not swayed by fashion and "cool" and people just intuitively, maybe unconsciously, know they can't "get a handle" on you, they can't play you and manipulate you with the standard self-propaganda, and they get weirded out by it.  And... with all the things you're going through and all the things your'e thinking... you're probably acting a little weird, too.  And yeah, you're right, people don't want the blubbering crybaby friend who can't go anywhere without being overly sensitive and easily offended and easily unbalanced.  But they don't understand.  The ones who DO understand don't judge you for it, because it isn't something you can just switch off like a lightbulb.  People who have been deeply depressed know that it isn't something you're doing... they know it isn't your fault. It's just where you are and it's just what you're feeling.  It's just within your reach but just outside your grasp, and that's perfectly ok.

People like you and me don't play by the rules, socially speaking, and the general populace doesn't know how to take it.  And it isn't because we're "better" or "deeper," it's just how we're built, it's just how we've developed.  I wouldn't know how to be socially calculating and manipulative if my life depended on it, and social grace and finesse is something I still hold in awe because, even though I can see it and appreciate it, I wouldn't even know where to begin for myself.  That isn't to say I don't have my own particular brand of shadow bullshit, just that I couldn't do it purposely.

This is getting rather long, so I'll start wrapping it up, for now.  First, I can say with some confidence that the feelings you're feeling will change, sooner or later.  Don't give up, man.  Just keep breathing.  Trite as it may sound, the world needs people like us... after all the Babylon garbage changes, and people, mainstream people, start to look underneath the dross and start seeking the real treasure... they'll need people around that are used to feeling these deep hurts.  People who can help them when they feel shitty and abandoned and vulnerable and anxiuos and completely scared out of their wits that all their shameful secrets will be discovered, and that they may actually have to show... genuine... deep... human feelings (gasp! no!)... then people like you and I will be there to say, "Hey brother, I've been there, and it's ok.  I still love you anyway."

My name is Keith, by the way.

 

"Carry on... love is coming... love is coming to us all..."

      ~CSN&Y

G - I think a powerful exercize you could do in the dark times like you describe, is to make a real honest attempt to take the perspective of other - particularly of all those people in the world who you blame for leaving you alone. No good for you to be stuck in your own mental labrynth and generating suppressed aggression and resentment towards the very people you want to be close to. Doing that, what do you expect is going to happen? It can be exhausting to deal with people who seem to demand everything they need from others - if your being that way do you really expect others to be seeking you out? Why do you think this troubles you so much? Not just in the moment - but in your idea of future - do you believe that you are "cursed" to live like this the rest of your life? If someone pointed out the way out of hell, would you really have the fortitude to take that road?

---

"Like the legendary Ko-ko bird, we follow our own tail around in ever-narrowing circles, but unlike that mythic bird we never complete the process by flying up our own rectums and disappearing."
-Robert Anton Wilson

Just a quick reply to livingegg- thanks for your advice and I will try some excercise like that.
However I am far too self-aware to act out as needy. Again this is subjective, not a fact, but concerning people, I only thing I am fair. I also treat being "honest" very cautiously- as Fred Kofman said on IN- being honest doesnt mean vomiting in order to tell what you had for breakfast (sick\healthy honest levels).
At times I am needy, am not scared of the word, but only to those very close or anonymously like on here. But it's not at "demanding" "everything" from "others". I am suspecting some of my problems are there because I'm not expressing my 'demanding' self enough to others, in the healthy way.
And 'needy' is problematic because people might have different conceptions of what is needy. But I don't define friends as people who would not tolerate another's challanges. That would be not tolerating their own shadow they see in their interpretation of what the other 'is' (Again quoting fred kofman here).
Paradoxically, when I observe people I can judge as being demanding on others- they have friends, but usually, of the same pre-conventional brand. I'm just not there.
Another point is that I shouldn't be so quick to assume an exhaustion they might have from me. that's just as bad isn't it?

Hey my man, I am glad your doing better.  Hope I was not to straight up and in your face. I meant well and cared for your wellbeing.  Continue the path that speaks to your heart. Be Well , Be Strong ,and Be Fun.....

---

Bill Kilburg,

Hi all,

been quiet for a while, which was good for everyone
I've had many thoughts... (nothingness- you were fine with your sincerity).

Keith\Ressurected, you were basically spot on this time as well...

Regarding relationship with others whie working on shadow,
there is a a paradox to this, and it goes like this...
            When person X begins to do major shadow work, inner journeys, contemplation etc., what would often also happen is that people can feel pretty intimidated by these achievements, mostly unconsciously. Because, if they somehow share the same [karmic?] 'concerns' or 'issues', the gap they would sense in the presence of person X would be a reflection of their own shadow. Also, the almost 'clairvoyant' abilities of 'reading' people, just becuase person X gained a wealth of knowledge on human behaviour, presents new challanges.
            So now, not only person X has to continue his shadow-work, he also needs some serious "skillful means" training in such areas as ethics, manners, assertiveness, 'nontoxic' communication, presentation etc. so the adverse reaction person X often gives rise to will be smoother...

This is an issue I've been thinking about alot, since it's always been a concern to me, not to let spiritual and shadow work is to alienate myself from others.

I think what caused my sadness to lift this time goes something like this... well its hard to put it in words but, I realized the absurdness of trying to 'solve' it by putting my attention to it! because that didn't work for me. it only engages my chatter monkey mind more deeply into a complex that is so unbalanced to begin with!...
Just very intuitively, i knew that the focus would not come from thinking about, say, the people-ignore-me-issue... I just thought like, how absurd, do I really believe I will suddenly think myself above it, to such a novel thought that it would go?...

To put in another way, I guess the insight (or mini-insight) was that my reactions to such a problem- just about any reaction in attempt to remedy the problem, in a way, confrims and roots the problem more firmly.
Now I don't know if this applies to every case in the UL.
I know it's a bit of a reversal of cause and effect but it seems that, well, if I can't get out of a vicious cycle when I'm experincing the problem and pains themselves, maybe at least I can get out of that cycle by not doing my habitual "fixer-self" aftermath of analysis or whatever... because it might be just the yin phase of something I don't want the yang of, in a way.

Does it make sense?
Where should I start a blog at?

much gratitude , more to come soon

 

G

momentsgap,

i have just followed along this post chain. i want to make sure you notice how caring all of these folks on this forum has been -- if there is any proof of your intrinsic worth, i think you can find its LL expression here. i lost my mother to skin cancer when i was 16, but was blessed to survive my own cancer, lymphoma, which i was treated for at the same time she was for hers. a few years later, my dad was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and he has reached a point of pallative care. death is the condition of life.

i am wondering about you: does any faith system engage you? what does the idea of god conjure for you? i always worry that in this new age of integrality, shadow work, etc, something is lost in the translation. i noticed your quoting of ken, "don't confuse the map with the territory." the territory is god (remember plato's "visible, sensible" god). the map is our mental chatter. ken speaks of there being pathologies at any level of development. i forsee pathologies in the integral sphere as a) self-inflation and b) a misunderstanding of territories or the purpose of maps. the maps we use to understand reality are only as good as our current understanding of reality. perhaps i should say, "awareness" of or "mindfulness" of reality. but i think previous to ALL these things is an openness to what life brings to us. we learn AQAL or integral theory to inspire us, not to neatly package things away. what brings us all to things like the I ching, or a religion, or a certain practice is a fundamental openness to being inspired. religion is no more than an inspiring/inspiriting force for humans -- but so is everything else if seen correctly. i have confidence in all members of humanity. we are never given circumstances that we do not already have the inner strength to overcome. we all always have the power within is to do these things, to face the karma with honesty and a willingness to grow. but it requires openness to what is not-yet, and a gratefulness for what-is. i am honestly most grateful for the "worst" circumstances in my life. these are the times when the universe/Spirit is reaching out to us. but we must be receptive or we are truly just spinning an egotistic wheel.

jack kornfield tells a story in "a path with heart" that tells about a young aspirant rejecting authority and seeking freedom in his life. he finds himself dropping out of school, dropping his relationships, travelling to india, joining a monastery, and committing to a strict meditation practice. and yet even there, he is constantly frustrated with chores at the monastery, other students, the teacher's ways. in a confrontation with his teacher, the teacher says, "what i want to know is when you hear a car come by, does it really come in and bother you, or are you going out to bother it? who is bothering whom?" the title of this chapter is, " stopping the war." i interpret this as a war against our karmic binds. we try to think we are better than what life deals us. but we are only as good as how we react to what life deals us. as you say, thoughts need your attention to thrive. just that statement allows for an obvious distinction between Who You Are and what your thoughts are and where they come from. what-we-happen-to-think-of is just as much a part of the karmic process as any event we encounter (because of course all events are mental events too), but they do not summarize or define who You Are. we must approach all quadrants with a quality of openness, for they all have things to teach us.

all is holy. this is a truth espoused by many faiths in many ways. but it does nothing for anyone unless they see for themselves. and seeing requires openness. my personal advice to you is to approach things with humor and do not let yourself get too attached to any practice or system. someone earlier mentioned the simple practice of sensing the body and experiencing it as such. we think this must necessarily involve "turning off the mind," but is rather just a refocusing. if we think of our person as a project, we are forever doomed to working on, in, and through our own person project. but we are not merely "people" doing "something." we are all already the body and spirit of god -- we have just got to see!

well i am sure i have rambled on beyond my calling. know that there is always love for you. for ever you will be a creation of the universe, and as such a whole part of all being. there is endless worth in you. may god bless you and ease you on your way, may you be granted peace in times of stress, humility in your happiness, and balance on any fringe,

tim

 Hi

I am copying this post from one I recently made to a discussion on Bipolar syndrome. I am assuming that you are suicidal because you are seriously depressed

I have gone through my own mental turmoil, some years ago and wish I had had the information I am presenting to you, below at that time, my recovery would have been much quicker. Also, I fully support Livingegg's words of wisdom re Landmark. He and I have communicated in the past

I have coached some depressed and bipolar individuals and both I and they have found the work of Joe Griffin and Ivan Tyrrell to be really useful at explaining the route cause of depression. It also provides some use ful tools for complete recovery, without drugs.If you are really uptight though, you may need someone to help you calm down before you can understand their work.

The basis of their thesis is that ALL mental illness results from us not having some of our needs (or what they refer to as "HumanGivens") met, These human needs are:

THE HUMAN GIVENS/ NEEDS 

These are the things we need in life in order to be emotionally balanced. 

1.      Security- a safe territory / environment to live and work in.

2.      Attention- giving it to and receiving it from others.

3.      Sense of resilience/ autonomy/ control over your life.

4.      Being emotionally connected to others.

5.      Being part of a wider community.

6.      Friendship and intimacy.

7.      Sense of status within ones social grouping.

8.      Sense of competence/ achievement.

9.      Meaning and purpose (comes from being stretched physically and mentally)

They also say that we are provided with certain resources to meet these needs. These include:

HUMAN RESOURCES TO MEET THESE NEEDS 

Nature has provided us with the equipment to meet these needs 

1. A long term memory- we can learn new things.
2. The ability to build rapport and connect with others.
3. Imagination- so we can look for different interpretations/ meanings for events.
4. A conscious mind that can check our emotions, question, analyse, plan.
5. The ability to “know,” subconsciously, if something is right, true for us.
6. An observing self- so we can step back and look at ourselves, responses, logic.
7. A dreaming brain. This allows us to defuse emotionally arising expectations that have not been acted out the previous day.

In relation to this last point 7, Joe has carried out some amazing research on the way our bodies use REM sleep to defuse emotional arousals which we have been unable to deal with appropriately during the previous day. The clinical outcome is that if we are seriously aroused today, we have excessive REM sleep tonight (Too much Dreaming). As REM sleep is not restorative, we wake the next day exhausted, in spite of 12 hours sleep and so the cycle continues. We are even more aroused today becaus  we are tired, incompetent, get little done, feel angry, guilty, etc and then tonight we will dream even more, trying to resolve the arousal.

Eventually we become depressed, anxious addicted etc.

You can find out more about his work on www.mindfields.org.uk  . His current book, and he has many is the fastest selling book on Depression ever on amazon.. It is called: "Overcoming depression fast". Please buy it, read it, understand it and act on it as soon as possible. He has many clients who can control depression  without drugs by ensuring that their "Human Givens " (needs) are met. His definitive book is called "Human Givens" which includes his research and a working hypothetical model of the evolutionary nature of REM sleep re emotional and thus mental wellbeing.

I have coached some very depressed people who have recovered 50% in one session simply by understanding this aetiological explanation for depression

I hope you will find this useful. If you send me your email address I will send through a few diagrams that I have prepared on the topic

Des

---

Dr Des Rice
Executive and Life Coach,
29 Ravenhill Park,
Belfast BT60DE
Tel 00442890598381
E- mail des@transformyourworld.co.uk
skype desrice130
Website www.transformyourworld.co.uk