Hi Pattye:
You strike me as a person who has not given away her voice. I think I will like talking with you. We can sip a cup of vinegar together!
You said: "I become more interested in the inredible skill in the movement of the body. When I taught PE, I always brought someone in to keep score since I was so into how the skills were performed and how well they had learned or for some seemed to come naturally. Instant replays show the "dance" the strength where speed, power and coordination come from in slow motion and many times they will put that to music."
I have always been fascinated by movement also. There is a kinesthetic line of development. It is a legitimate line to honor and nourish.
There is something so exquisite about doing a simple thing like turning around and shooting a jump shot from 15 feet and having it arc through the air and rip right down through the cords of the net. I mean, how many possible places was there for that ball to go? Millions. And we managed to make it go there? That is just sheer delight. How can we do that?
"There is a food thread started here now and I look for the time to participate in another Passion with recipes, healthy food etc. So in working with children and with my own, as I watched, I could see how important all of this made up something reallly pretty wonderful. And as for the Beauty of Art and Theater and Musical talent, I am a huge cheerleader and fan and must have that as part of my life.
The spiritual is in all of that. The spiritual is in nature. The spiritual for me is in athletes and that is a spiritual component of what is happening when they perform."
So the love and passion that we bring to beauty and art reflects a spiritual attitude? This would be the fourth valid sense of the word "spiritual", right? Bringing love and compassion to kinesthetic and aesthetic activity.
It's really important to make that distinction, because otherwise we get into all sorts of misunderstandings. An amber athlete is not doing anything remotely spiritual, if we use the term to denote 2nd tier consciousness. A golfer who has a peak experience ( a la Michael Murphy's Golf in the Kingdom) is not necessarily developing on the spiritual line, if we use the term to denote a separate and independent line of development at whatever altitude. And a football player who has developed deeply along a spiritual line but who is currently just smashing another guy on the field is not accessing a spiritual state, though he may have a well developed spiritual stage, if we think of the term as denoting a peak experience.
There are probably 10 or so really important concepts in the Integral theory that we all have to get straight on. I'm not sure I am straight on any of them, so I ask you or anyone else to correct me if I am making no sense. AQAL stages, states, lines, and quadrants, spirit, enlightenment, Kosmos, non-dual, relative, 2nd tier and 1st tier, etc. We have to get these fairly straight, wouldn't you agree?
Some people say, well, I sometimes just want to hang out and relax. I mean, sure, everyone likes to do that. But, it is kind of like going to church and saying, "hey, let's just chill and throw a little frisbee." Nothing wrong with frisbee, but, why are we doing it here? Why not outside?
So, to the best of our ability, we should be trying to help each other understand and apply Integral concepts, if we are in an Integral forum. That's how I see it, and how I will approach it.
"It really is sort of like "Everything is Beautiful or everyone is right." That will not work when we speak of little 12 and 14 year old girls in Atlanta Georga being used as prostitutes and the slavery of the same from other countries. Whatdoes not work is you know that Beauty and Spiritual is being raped, wasted, abused, harmed decieved, brainwashed and then we just cry a lot and some get to work trying to stop it."
There is a non-relative perspective in which everything is beautiful and everyone is right. And from that perspective or ... ground ... there is no everything and there is no everyone. Right? And there is a relative perspective in which everything is what it is and the universe is compelling it and us to grow and become more developed (e.g. not treating people like property).
These absolute statements - exactly what use are they? I am not denying that there is a proper use of non-relative statements. They can be poetic or they can point to a non-dual ground, but relatively speaking, they often just seem to be a cover for a kind of laziness in saying what we really mean.
"You did not comment on some comments I wrote in my last Post. Ws there nothing worthwhile or do you think I was just creating a mood or trying to blow smoke."
Thanks for bringing that up. I often wonder "what is our duty to continue a conversation we have entered?" or "what is our duty to respond fully to every point someone has raised?" I have tried to be as responsive as I can when I jumped into a thread.
I guess one can ignore something if there is nothing useful that can be said. Or one can ignore something if the answer is delicate. Or one can simply find the sub-threads they want to talk about and not worry about everything else. I don't know the answer. But I think that if someone is trying to meet us half way and is making intelligible comments and there is someone useful to be said, we should try to respond.
I can hear Andrew saying some worthwhile things and sometimes seeming to struggle with something and not have all the energy he did when he started. It is as if there is something that has died. Beginnnings and Endings- always.
I don't know Andrew and have never met him in person. What I do know is this - he is presenting himself to the world at large as competent to tell us all how to become enlightened. And he seems to be making big money in doing it.
And I think that what he is saying is by and large bullshit. If you look at the words at face value. I speak English fairly well and have read many, many volumes of well written text. I have written many things and others have said to me that what I wrote was very clear and precise. So, I am going to assume I am competent to determine what is just gibberish.
Like I said, he may very well show the face of God in person. I cannot know. But my sense is that people like Wilber and Maharshi who seem to have genuinely developed to high second tier are capable of making useful statements about the places they have visited. And they would not find it tolerable to say the kinds of thing Cohen is saying.
What right do I have to be critical of him? If he was talking about his poetry or his new line of barbeques, that is his business. But he is purporting to talk about the Kosmos which we have a stake in. And everytime someone comes up with a confusing, or deceptive, "prescription" for making sense of the Kosmos, all of those people who might benefit from a legitimate guide get turned off and go back to their merry little amber ways. Persons should not sell tickets to events where they claim to speak about the universe and how it works unless they really know and can help us more than they confuse us.
I also feel that we have become way too tolerant of hucksters. And I want to simply demonstrate that the world will not end if we make critical comments that are based on notions of legitimacy and authenticity and clarity and competency. I wish more people would do that - it is so good for our health (mental, spiritual and otherwise).
Your last statement about your open call may not be what some are interested in at this moment. And you speak as if we are children when you use phrases like "lets at a bare minimum start yada yada" sort of like Lombardi saying at half time after a bad first half, "OK guys we will start at the beginning, this is a football". You had to be talking down to some that may be laboring one of the umpty million thoughts one can ponder with Wilber's works.
I understand that some people are offended when people talk like this. I know a lot of people who are not.
Diplomacy can be important. When the Chinese and Japanese meet at high levels, they bow and they say "no, you first" and they smile and under their breath they are thinking "I am going to slay him." False modesty has a role to play in preventing immediate warfare.
I am not anyone's coach or boss or authority. I have no power other than to say something that I honestly believe is useful. I am genuinely trying to be helpful and treat people like intelligent beings who are big enough to deal with straight talk.
You know who is really treating you with disrespect and talking down to you and being arrogant? People who ignore you because they think you are stupid. People who ignore you because they think there is nothing useful to say to you. People who don't have the courtesy to even speak clearly and try to be understood. People who think they are "insiders" with fast track and deep insight and who avoid us because they think we don't get it. They are all smiling and they want your vote and they could give a rat's ass about you.
I have not said a thing that was intended simply to piss someone off. I do not have that "shithead" attitude in my personality. I am very tolerant and very open-minded and I instinctively respect human beings.
But when I see frauds and cons and stupidity and arrogance masquerading as highminded tolerance, I will stand up and be heard.
We Americans are such consummate politicians. Everything we do is designed to create a good impression, as if there is a vote coming up and we want to be elected as "nicest guy in the neighborhood." So we tolerate laziness and bad work and arrogance and deception and .. b.s. Because those people may be voting for us, right?
We are a nation of consummate campaigners. Maybe it starts in high school, I don't know.
Pattye - what much of this comes down to, for me, is perspective. Not attitude perspective or disposition perspective. Just pure and simple showing an ability to be useful from the perspective of another person.
As I write this to you, I am trying to have you understand me. It would give me great joy if you would acknowledge that you know what I mean and also if you would show me where I am blind. To do this, I am trying to feel who you are and provide something useful.
To do that, I am trying to use words that fit what I mean. And I am trying to organize my ideas into units that will make sense. I am using green font to distinguish my words from yours. And I am going to make the words a 4 size so they are easier to read and scroll through when you read it. You see, I am thinking about you and how this will appear to you.
That is the spirit of Integral. Showing courtesy to be clear and helpful and to boost each other by seeing how the other sees something.
Have you noticed how clear and courteous Wilber's writing is? It seems like he genuinely is trying to help us understand and he is never trying to bullshit us. He tries really hard to use the right words, and if they need to be explained he does it in the most concise and helpful way he can.
And he is courteous enough to tell us when other's seem to be making no sense. He seems to value being helpful to the world over being liked or being charming or placating other purported experts.
So, regarding being helpful...
Anecdote: have you ever been to a Japanese airport? They design them so that everything is helpful and useful to the maximum extent. Everywhere you look, you find some feature that says "someone has put themselves in my shoes and tried to make this feature to be exactly what I need at this moment." It isn't really self-less on their part, and I doubt you need to lose your self to do this. What you have to do is 1. have a real desire to be helpful and 2. put yourself in the shoes of the other person and ask "what will they need at this moment?" And then take action to implement what you see as being the most helpful to others.
So, a couple of weeks ago, I am at the airport in Minneapolis. It is 0600 and my flight leaves at 0700. I want to check in, but there are only 3 clerks servicing a line of about 125 passengers. It seems like 2 or 3 minutes pass for each passenger at the desk. I get the sense that they are going to many places, not just my place. And I am definitely going to miss my flight if I get in line at place #126.
There are two clerks next to them in the business class line serving one passenger. I ask an airline employee, "would it be OK if I check in with business class. I am concerned I won't make it through this line in time." She says, "yes."
I had to ask permission to violate a posted rule - coach vs. business. What about the other people standing in position number #73 in the line going to the same place as I am? Are they supposed to also ask to break the rule? Should they? Should they have to worry if they will miss their flight?
There was no apparent concern about informing passengers in line going to Seattle what they were supposed to do.
I am at the airport in Seattle. It is dark and gloomy inside. Bad lighting. I am looking for the taxi stand. The signs are not clear. Finally, I see a sign that says go the X level. So, I am near the elevator and around the elevator there are 3 different letters, T, X, and P. What do they mean? Is this the X level or does this elevator take me to the X level? Is this the P level? Etc. Who are these conflicting signs talking to? There are too many signs with symbols that make no sense.
And I am thinking, there is "no one in charge" who is insisting that the airport experience be useful and pleasurable from the standpoint of the passenger. There is a lack of ownership. There is a lack of the craftsman spirit that says "hey, let's make this airport system really, really nice for the passengers."
No big deal, I made my flight and I found a taxi. But I had to improvise. And I find this happening over and over and over. It demonstrates an inner attitude. A category 4 non-spiritual attitude toward service to fellow human beings.
Yesterday, I bought a lighting system for my yard. I am reading the directions. The paragraphs are numbered 1,2, 5,6. I am looking around - is there another sheet with instructions 3 and 4? Who was in charge that permitted a technical instruction to go out to 10,000 customers apparently lacking instructions 3 and 4? Was this a deliberate omission? Why?
How does this happen? Because no one was in charge. No one said "let's look at this closely from the standpoint of the customer." Will this make sense. Is it helpful?
I believe that we can all do each other a great service by trying to see the world from the perspective of the other. And then try to be useful and helpful. The message may be happy or it may be sad or it may seem arrogant. But it has to reflect an intention to present something to the other based on what is useful to the other. And not simply an intent to do something sloppily to satisfy an acceptable minimum.
So, in this forum I would look for really straight forward comments about Integral concepts and the world and how they are being interpreted and what make sense and what seem to be nonsense. Etc. And if someone wants to stand in line and chit chat for 3 hours, we can let them do that of course. But for those of us who want to get to the aircraft, there should be helpful guidance.