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sports & spirituality

Last post 07-13-2008, 11:15 AM by fairyfaye. 61 replies.
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  •  05-31-2008, 2:33 PM 53883 in reply to 53882

    Re: sports & spirituality

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  •  05-31-2008, 2:46 PM 53885 in reply to 53882

    Re: sports & spirituality

    I of God Last try.
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  •  05-31-2008, 2:48 PM 53886 in reply to 53885

    Re: sports & spirituality

    So, this is Manny Ramirez. He is standing in left field. A batter will be coming to the plate in a moment. From a Zone #2 perspective, he seems to be doing something right now.
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  •  05-31-2008, 3:14 PM 53890 in reply to 53886

    The 1,2 and 3 of Manny

    The previous foto seemed to suggest a 1st person relationship to God. Here is a 2nd person relationship. From a 3rd person perspective, is there any way to tell what his 1st person event is at this moment? There are those who seem to regard this man as a "quasi-savior." There is a time-worn phrase to explain his unusual behavior which at times seems enlightened "It's Manny being Manny." It is used the way we might say "how can you explain the non-dual." Thou of God
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  •  05-31-2008, 3:20 PM 53892 in reply to 53890

    Re: The 1,2 and 3 of Manny

    Note the AQAL compass on the Mariners logo as well as the futher sub-divisions into the 8 zones.
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  •  05-31-2008, 3:21 PM 53893 in reply to 53892

    Re: The 1,2 and 3 of Manny

    Note also that Manny's number, on his armband, is 24 - two perspectives available within each of the four quadrants.
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  •  05-31-2008, 11:10 PM 53921 in reply to 53893

    Re: The 1,2 and 3 of Manny

    Dear schalk:   What is going on here?    I know it is past my bed time.  When corey referred to the photobucket, what does that mean.    Is that the Mariners blue circle with the mandala inside?   When I went by it with the mouse, "thou and God" came up in small letters.   I went back to check and went all over the thing with the mouse and "nothing:"    I thought I was nuts.   Then I went back and hit the very center of the mandala you spoke of  with the parts and it came up again. " thou and god"  in small letters.    then later it popped up again at random at the bottom right of the page as the mouse went by.     What is the deal about the mandala being on the fence in one picture and blank in another picture.    Does the center mandala have anything to do with the Manriners?    Are there photo buckets at all ball games?  Or are you guys having some kind of "we" stuff that is unusual.?     Last,  I assume a picture is supposed to come up when the little red x is hit.  Nothing  on the first space but it came up on the next space or Post without touching another red x.   I don't think all of this is being tech challenged, as I definitely am.   But I need answers.   I will check tomorrow, hoping for your answers.

    I have watched athletes preparing to run, jump etc and the intense focus they bring to the event esp when the time to move comes.   And I have often wondered what the connection is between that and meditation or trance or hypnosis.  All different in some ways but a samenesss in other ways.    I am certified in hypnosis for use in psychotherapy and I stick with stories and use very few movements but I have seen a couple of gifted people talk with their hands when working with clients,using it for the good of the patient.   Manny definitely seems to be in some other place in the picture as compared to, say, the baseball pitcher who is so intense, checks out every thing more than once, and then that super intent again.   I can feel that just before the ball leaves the hand.   But Manny does not seem to be doing anything with regarding the sport in your example.   Except perhaps looking to the heavens and/or into some kind of action that is not passive.  There is an energy but not intensity.

    As to your response to fairy faye.   I think the first thing we have to do is find the words we will use for the same thing.   This movement in evolution has us fumbling for what we mean and what we are trying to say.   And KW did accuse Deepak of getting his writing straightened out re: the Myth of the Given".   Apparently he did in his last book about the Budha since Ken offered to write the forward.  I used to call him Deep Pockets and could never read his books after a quick check.  But I cannot read Marianne Williamson even tho I am open to the Course in Miracles.  But I have been totally satisfied with Integral for 13 years now, before it was even Integral. Still read other books but I seem to know the ones that will not be right for me.  And there is a bunch of them, now that it is a big business.

    corey, anything that you can answer does help.  Wish we could submit questions that could be answered for us by KW.   Or someone.  I could write an email to Robb but if you can do this, is there a possibility?   I know you are just as interested in any and all information around these issues.    There were times when I was teaching Physical Ed. or using movement in therapy, that I would have things manifest and sometimes, I would think there is a place in the brain where we get all good intentions or maybe all intentions.  Of course that makes sense anyhow if we do know that Our Highest Selves are Divine and a Mystery, dont' we?    I ordered Michael Murphy's book,  The Future of the Body  and sat and went thru it for an hour or so.   It was so big  and I had just read SES.  I simply could not read that one then.   Since then I have a general idea of what that book is all about  and these specifics may be the place to find these answers.  I still do not want to think of reading anything that big, so what do you think of asking questions, maybe submitting

    a few monthly that could be Posted.   I am not correcting this Post.  Goodnight and Goodluck.   To all of us.    Pattye

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  •  05-31-2008, 11:19 PM 53924 in reply to 53921

    Re: The 1,2 and 3 of Manny

    PS    Went back and could not get  "thou of god"   then went to first picture and saw

    I of god" for the first time.    So that was what you were talking about.   Perhaps that was in another Post of yours and I  missed it.   I see what you were saying now.  WHAT IS THAT?!!!!   HOW DOES THAT WORK?!!!!   Technology.   It is something new often these days but this takes the cake unless there is a good explanation.   Then I wwnt back to other picture and saw  "thou of God" once again.

    What is going on?

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  •  05-31-2008, 11:44 PM 53927 in reply to 53921

    Re: The 1,2 and 3 of Manny

    Hi Pattye:

    Photobucket is a site that allows you to create photo albums, then you can take the photos you have stored in there and attached the link onto these posts.

    Yes, that is the Mariners logo. I guess it is a mariner's compass. But it works as an AQAL motif too.

    Kind of weird that as I got Manny in a photo which I thought showed him in a 1st person UL activity of a spiritual nature, the quasi-AQAL motif showed up in the picture right next to him!

    When you run the mouse over the photo you get the name I assigned to the photo when I dumped it into the Photobucket site.

    Sorry about the first two bogus posts with nothing in them. I screwed up Corey's perfectly clear instructions. But I got it the third time.

    We have been talking about spirituality and sports. There are some people who have the sense that athletes may be spiritually developed. I originally said that I don't think this is necessarily the case.

    There was talk about Manny Ramirez being involved in some kind of visualization practice. Several days later the Red Sox came to town so I went to the game and sat on the left field line right by him. I got the distinct sense that he engages in some kind of inner practice during the game. I tried to show two fotos of him - one where he seems to be meditating and another where it seemed he was praying or looking to the heavens. I am being partly facetious, since I can't know for sure what he was doing.

     

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  •  06-01-2008, 12:09 PM 53978 in reply to 53927

    Re: The 1,2 and 3 of Manny

    Dear schalk:   Thanks for clarifying.   I need to write in daytime.   Sorry you had to repeat.  I got some of that from your earlier Posts.  Learn something everyday.

    I think some athletes are doing the spiritual thing.  Of course everything is spiritual and we cannot speak that way when we are trying to define a part.  I feel unclear most of the time until I get to the bottom of it.    The least we can do is check our word meaning to find if we are on the same page.  "Enlightenment" is one of the words that is used a lot and loses meaning at times.    The book, "The Eye of the Spirit" by KW has a chapter called "Always Already".  I keep referring to that when I want to suggest the best I found for myself about clarifying and it does not use the word Enlightenment, if I remember correctly.  One thing for sure.  I now have an interest in Manny and will perk up when I hear his name and will try to catch some games.   And the Mariners picture logo says a lot even if it was chosen unconsciously.  And it is yours also now since it drew you in as similar to AQAL.

    A friend came to my house the other day.  She was waiting in the living room for me and when I walked in, she was on the couch with her head back relaxing in silence with no magazine or other distraction.   She said. "  Ohhh it is so peaceful in here".

    I had to convince her that it came from inside her.   She had left 4 children at school,

    two were set of twins, had gotten a drivers permit before school and the son begged to drive.  They had gone off the road when a semi came from behind and she was not ready to even think about him driving .  She walked into my home.  I was alone. You could smell the coffee.  My house was straight.  I live alone.  I was calm. She thought it was me and my house which could have been true since I had not been challenged with any stress.   The point is, she would not have taken that time to just sit and be if she were anywhere else .  Not even a doctor's office.  It is those times that can be very important.   So I wonder if there is not a kind of energy moving within you that is needing to be honored, treasured, held or saved as Ken would say.

    That does not mean that you lose that part of yourself that is so out there like someone pacing the floor over misconceptions and perspectives that do not ring true.

    In the chapter, "Always Aready". Ken gives the Budhist names of the potential of what we might become if we  can "get" what the chapter is saying (my take on what he is saying).  The names are not written in stone, as he suggests in different words.

    However, I looked carefully to see which one I most resonated with and I remember another one that could be you.

    Those things come to mind as I connect and I wanted to share that with you.  I did not know until this morning after my  own meditation.   I would want  someone to share with me.  The most important thing is for you to allow for whatever arises when you get quiet and more clues and answers will come.  It seems to me that the passion you have is pretty high at this time.   And you are not just quoting or re-writing someone's words but really getting in there with your own connections and speaking up with your whole self.   Seems that way to me, for what it is worth.  Loving regards,   Pattye

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  •  06-01-2008, 12:55 PM 53983 in reply to 53978

    Re: The 1,2 and 3 of Manny

    Thanks Pattye:

    Re: Spirituality

    You said:

    "I think some athletes are doing the spiritual thing.  Of course everything is spiritual and we cannot speak that way when we are trying to define a part.  I feel unclear most of the time until I get to the bottom of it.    The least we can do is check our word meaning to find if we are on the same page."

    I agree with you completely - we have to do better at checking our word meaning.

    Look closely at what you are saying.

    "Some athletes ... are doing the spiritual thing, and ... everything is spiritual." So, if everything is spiritual, how can some athletes not be doing the spiritual thing?

    Which "spiritual thing" do you see them doing? Wilber points out that there are four legitimate and different ways we talk about "spiritual."

    1. The highest stages across all lines (e.g. 2nd tier);

    2. Any level of altitude up and down the spiritual line of development itself.

    3. A peak state of spiritual experiencing which can be interpreted at whichever level of vertical development there is;

    4. An attitude (e.g. love or compassion) that is applied to anything.

    So, to talk about athletes being spiritual or engaging in "the spiritual thing" we have to be clear.

    1. I cannot see professional athletes doing #1. Their lives have been consumed with competition (and they have been succeeding at it! There has been no motivation to develop to 2nd tier.

    2. Yes, we all have a spiritual line in the sense of #2 and anyone has seen a sunrise and felt at one has probably exercised this line. How we interpret it is a different matter.

    3. If we are talking about peak states (spiritual) then athletes can have them just as well as anyone.

    4. If we are talking about an attitude of devotion or compassion, I sort of don't see athletes doing this when they have their game faces on, but I can't rule it out when they are not "in the game."

    I think our biggest challenge in the I-I community is to start being as accurate as we can about what we are talking about. Otherwise, we just end up with a bunch of amorphous statements.

    I would like to make an open call to anyone who reads these words - let's at a bare minimum start distinguishing which of the 4 meanings of "spiritual" we are referring to when we use the term.

    This is what floors me about a guy like Andrew Cohen. He builds an entire business and community on the foundation of what is essentially junk statements. His words are sloppy and really don't seem to mean much of anything. Who knows - maybe face to face he is transmitting the face of God to everyone. I don't know. But, most enlightened people do a pretty good job of conveying in words what they are doing. At a bare minimum, they don't muddle it up.

    Thanks for wondering what I need. But can we please not talk about what I need unless I ask for help? I think it is kind of an insidious thing to keep turning discussions around to the author, the motivations, the shadows, the needs, etc.

     

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  •  06-01-2008, 11:47 PM 54025 in reply to 53983

    Re: The 1,2 and 3 of Manny

    I think this is going to be a good thing and I cannot do it tonight.    When I do consider all you have said, I know I do want to respond.

    I am in my own little world that I may have mentioned.  I am not too into the competition or the score.  Or I become more interested in the inredible skill in the movement of the body.   When I taught PE,  I always brought someone in to keep score since I was so into how the skills were performed and how well they had learned or for some seemed to come naturally.   Instant replays show the "dance" the strength where speed, power and coordination come from in slow motion and many times they will put that to music.  What I might have said is that I think the potential for "spiritual intelligence" is there for all in different degrees.   If I am working with a class of little kids- grade school,  I can watch so many different possibilities of what the body does and the thrill that comes from that.

    An aside would be that I was trying to  be Integral at a young age and I can see that in other students and my grandchildren.  I majored in PE, minored in English and Home Ec.  grad school for Counseling and Therapy and mixed in with all of this was a Passion for learning from the nuns and priests everything they had to teach in the "spiritual "realm.  Was fortunate to have open minded religious for the most part and if they were not, my parents would either be out there to quesion them or they would tell me.  I wanted to go to church with my Baptist friend.  Daddy said of course I could.  I said that one nun said I would go to hell.   He said he did not care what sister said, I could go to church with my friend.  

    There is a food thread started here now and I look for the time to participate in another Passion with recipes, healthy food etc.   So in working with children and with my own, as I watched, I could see how important all of this made up something reallly pretty wonderful.   And as for the Beauty of Art and Theater and Musical talent,   I am a huge cheerleader and fan and must have that as part of my life.

    The spiritual is in all of that.   The spiritual is in nature.  The spiritual for me is in athletes and that is a spiritual component of what is happening when they perform .

    Some better than others.  But to watch and feel the trying to reach potential is also very spiritual.  .       I will say this,  great athletes are not doing the spiritual thing at times  when they are not performing.   I am not impressed with much of the extra curricular stuff that is in excess or comes from using poor judgement.  That spirit seems dead even tho they can still perform until it catches up with them. However it is also Spirit that has to fall apart in order to grow up.  A warrior is awesomely spiritual and impressive when being all he can be (I had to say that) and carries that into all of his/her life. 

     really is sort of like   "Everything is Beautiful  or everyone is right."  That will not work when we speak of little 12 and 14 year old girls in Atlanta Georga being used as prostitutes and the slavery of the same from other countries.   Whatdoes not work is you know that Beauty and Spiritual is being raped, wasted, abused, harmed decieved, brainwashed and then we just cry a lot and some get to work trying to stop it.

    I will try to speak to the numbers in next Post. If you have already done it better than I can, then I am not going to bother.  And then there is the Shadow side that I know well so this is not all of it.    The main point is the challenge that you speak of- to be as accurate as we cn about what we are talking about.  More later.

    You did not comment on some comments  I wrote  in my last Post.   Ws there nothing worthwhile or do you think I was just creating a mood or trying to blow smoke.

    I will not be offended if you say you are not into or do not get what I am saying . If you think it is not meaningful, then you need to learn to ask questions that say that you are interested in what was said but that you needed more info - or something.

    I can hear Andrew saying some worthwhile things and sometimes seeming to struggle with something and not have all the energy he did when he started.  It is as if there is something that has died.  Beginnnings and Endings- always.    This is a huge subject. Haven't even mentioned NLP  .  There are some gifted people that can speak to any different way any one talks.   Your last statement about your open call may not be what some are interested in at this moment.  And you speak as if we are children when you use phrases like  "lets at a bare minimum start yada yada"  sort of like Lombardi saying  at half time after a bad first half, "OK guys we will start at the beginning, this is a football".   You had to be talking down to some that may be laboring  one of the umpty million thoughts one can ponder with Wilber's works.

    They might want to put those words they read in a box under the bed until they have time to do that .   It took me forever to get the  idea of   "The Myth of the Given."

    And I could not get help from  those that did that was not too advanced and intellectual.   I am always wanting to say--  tell us a story.   Give us an example. 

    Namaste  Pattye

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  •  06-02-2008, 12:47 PM 54084 in reply to 54025

    Re: The 1,2 and 3 of Manny

    Hi Pattye:

    You strike me as a person who has not given away her voice. I think I will like talking with you. We can sip a cup of vinegar together! 

    You said: "I become more interested in the inredible skill in the movement of the body.   When I taught PE,  I always brought someone in to keep score since I was so into how the skills were performed and how well they had learned or for some seemed to come naturally.   Instant replays show the "dance" the strength where speed, power and coordination come from in slow motion and many times they will put that to music." 

    I have always been fascinated by movement also. There is a kinesthetic line of development. It is a legitimate line to honor and nourish.  

    There is something so exquisite about doing a simple thing like turning around and shooting a jump shot from 15 feet and having it arc through the air and rip right down through the cords of the net. I mean, how many possible places was there for that ball to go? Millions. And we managed to make it go there? That is just sheer delight. How can we do that? 

    "There is a food thread started here now and I look for the time to participate in another Passion with recipes, healthy food etc.   So in working with children and with my own, as I watched, I could see how important all of this made up something reallly pretty wonderful.   And as for the Beauty of Art and Theater and Musical talent,   I am a huge cheerleader and fan and must have that as part of my life.

    The spiritual is in all of that.   The spiritual is in nature.  The spiritual for me is in athletes and that is a spiritual component of what is happening when they perform."

    So the love and passion that we bring to beauty and art reflects a spiritual attitude? This would be the fourth valid sense of the word "spiritual", right? Bringing love and compassion to kinesthetic and aesthetic activity.

    It's really important to make that distinction, because otherwise we get into all sorts of misunderstandings. An amber athlete is not doing anything remotely spiritual, if we use the term to denote 2nd tier consciousness. A golfer who has a peak experience ( a la Michael Murphy's Golf in the Kingdom) is not necessarily developing on the spiritual line, if we use the term to denote a separate and independent line of development at whatever altitude. And a football player who has developed deeply along a spiritual line but who is currently just smashing another guy on the field is not accessing a spiritual state, though he may have a well developed spiritual stage, if we think of the term as denoting a peak experience.

    There are probably 10 or so really important concepts in the Integral theory that we all have to get straight on. I'm not sure I am straight on any of them, so I ask you or anyone else to correct me if I am making no sense. AQAL stages, states, lines, and quadrants, spirit, enlightenment, Kosmos, non-dual, relative, 2nd tier and 1st tier, etc. We have to get these fairly straight, wouldn't you agree?  

    Some people say, well, I sometimes just want to hang out and relax. I mean, sure, everyone likes to do that. But, it is kind of like going to church and saying, "hey, let's just chill and throw a little frisbee." Nothing wrong with frisbee, but, why are we doing it here? Why not outside?

    So, to the best of our ability, we should be trying to help each other understand and apply Integral concepts, if we are in an Integral forum. That's how I see it, and how I will approach it.

    "It really is sort of like   "Everything is Beautiful  or everyone is right."  That will not work when we speak of little 12 and 14 year old girls in Atlanta Georga being used as prostitutes and the slavery of the same from other countries.   Whatdoes not work is you know that Beauty and Spiritual is being raped, wasted, abused, harmed decieved, brainwashed and then we just cry a lot and some get to work trying to stop it."

    There is a non-relative perspective in which everything is beautiful and everyone is right. And from that perspective or ... ground ... there is no everything and there is no everyone. Right? And there is a relative perspective in which everything is what it is and the universe is compelling it and us to grow and become more developed (e.g. not treating people like property).

    These absolute statements - exactly what use are they? I am not denying that there is a proper use of non-relative statements. They can be poetic or they can point to a non-dual ground, but relatively speaking, they often just seem to be a cover for a kind of laziness in saying what we really mean.

    "You did not comment on some comments  I wrote  in my last Post.   Ws there nothing worthwhile or do you think I was just creating a mood or trying to blow smoke."

    Thanks for bringing that up. I often wonder "what is our duty to continue a conversation we have entered?" or "what is our duty to respond fully to every point someone has raised?" I have tried to be as responsive as I can when I jumped into a thread.

    I guess one can ignore something if there is nothing useful that can be said. Or one can ignore something if the answer is delicate. Or one can simply find the sub-threads they want to talk about and not worry about everything else. I don't know the answer. But I think that if someone is trying to meet us half way and is making intelligible comments and there is someone useful to be said, we should try to respond.

    I can hear Andrew saying some worthwhile things and sometimes seeming to struggle with something and not have all the energy he did when he started.  It is as if there is something that has died.  Beginnnings and Endings- always.   

    I don't know Andrew and have never met him in person. What I do know is this - he is presenting himself to the world at large as competent to tell us all how to become enlightened. And he seems to be making big money in doing it.

    And I think that what he is saying is by and large bullshit. If you look at the words at face value. I speak English fairly well and have read many, many volumes of well written text. I have written many things and others have said to me that what I wrote was very clear and precise. So, I am going to assume I am competent to determine what is just gibberish.

    Like I said, he may very well show the face of God in person. I cannot know. But my sense is that people like Wilber and Maharshi who seem to have genuinely developed to high second tier are capable of making useful statements about the places they have visited. And they would not find it tolerable to say the kinds of thing Cohen is saying.

    What right do I have to be critical of him? If he was talking about his poetry or his new line of barbeques, that is his business. But he is purporting to talk about the Kosmos which we have a stake in. And everytime someone comes up with a confusing, or deceptive, "prescription" for making sense of the Kosmos, all of those people who might benefit from a legitimate guide get turned off and go back to their merry little amber ways. Persons should not sell tickets to events where they claim to speak about the universe and how it works unless they really know and can help us more than they confuse us.

    I also feel that we have become way too tolerant of hucksters. And I want to simply demonstrate that the world will not end if we make critical comments that are based on notions of legitimacy and authenticity and clarity and competency. I wish more people would do that - it is so good for our health (mental, spiritual and otherwise).

    Your last statement about your open call may not be what some are interested in at this moment.  And you speak as if we are children when you use phrases like  "lets at a bare minimum start yada yada"  sort of like Lombardi saying  at half time after a bad first half, "OK guys we will start at the beginning, this is a football".   You had to be talking down to some that may be laboring  one of the umpty million thoughts one can ponder with Wilber's works.

    I understand that some people are offended when people talk like this. I know a lot of people who are not.

    Diplomacy can be important. When the Chinese and Japanese meet at high levels, they bow and they say "no, you first" and they smile and under their breath they are thinking "I am going to slay him." False modesty has a role to play in preventing immediate warfare.

    I am not anyone's coach or boss or authority. I have no power other than to say something that I honestly believe is useful. I am genuinely trying to be helpful and treat people like intelligent beings who are big enough to deal with straight talk.

    You know who is really treating you with disrespect and talking down to you and being arrogant? People who ignore you because they think you are stupid. People who ignore you because they think there is nothing useful to say to you. People who don't have the courtesy to even speak clearly and try to be understood. People who think they are "insiders" with fast track and deep insight and who avoid us because they think we don't get it. They are all smiling and they want your vote and they could give a rat's ass about you.

    I have not said a thing that was intended simply to piss someone off.  I do not have that "shithead" attitude in my personality. I am very tolerant and very open-minded and I instinctively respect human beings. 

    But when I see frauds and cons and stupidity and arrogance masquerading as highminded tolerance, I will stand up and be heard. 

    We Americans are such consummate politicians. Everything we do is designed to create a good impression, as if there is a vote coming up and we want to be elected as "nicest guy in the neighborhood." So we tolerate laziness and bad work and arrogance and deception and .. b.s. Because those people may be voting for us, right?

    We are a nation of consummate campaigners. Maybe it starts in high school, I don't know.

    Pattye - what much of this comes down to, for me, is perspective. Not attitude perspective or disposition perspective. Just pure and simple showing an ability to be useful from the perspective of another person.

    As I write this to you, I am trying to have you understand me. It would give me great joy if you would acknowledge that you know what I mean and also if you would show me where I am blind. To do this, I am trying to feel who you are and provide something useful.

    To do that, I am trying to use words that fit what I mean. And I am trying to organize my ideas into units that will make sense. I am using green font to distinguish my words from yours. And I am going to make the words a 4 size so they are easier to read and scroll through when you read it. You see, I am thinking about you and how this will appear to you.

    That is the spirit of Integral. Showing courtesy to be clear and helpful and to boost each other by seeing how the other sees something.

    Have you noticed how clear and courteous Wilber's writing is? It seems like he genuinely is trying to help us understand and he is never trying to bullshit us. He tries really hard to use the right words, and if they need to be explained he does it in the most concise and helpful way he can.

    And he is courteous enough to tell us when other's seem to be making no sense. He seems to value being helpful to the world over being liked or being charming or placating other purported experts.

    So, regarding being helpful...

    Anecdote: have you ever been to a Japanese airport? They design them so that everything is helpful and useful to the maximum extent. Everywhere you look, you find some feature that says "someone has put themselves in my shoes and tried to make this feature to be exactly what I need at this moment." It isn't really self-less on their part, and I doubt you need to lose your self to do this. What you have to do is 1. have a real desire to be helpful and 2. put yourself in the shoes of the other person and ask "what will they need at this moment?" And then take action to implement what you see as being the most helpful to others.

    So, a couple of weeks ago, I am at the airport in Minneapolis. It is 0600 and my flight leaves at 0700. I want to check in, but there are only 3 clerks servicing a line of about 125 passengers. It seems like 2 or 3 minutes pass for each passenger at the desk. I get the sense that they are going to many places, not just my place. And I am definitely going to miss my flight if I get in line at place #126.

    There are two clerks next to them in the business class line serving one passenger. I ask an airline employee, "would it be OK if I check in with business class. I am concerned I won't make it through this line in time." She says, "yes."

    I had to ask permission to violate a posted rule - coach vs. business. What about the other people standing in position number #73 in the line going to the same place as I am? Are they supposed to also ask to break the rule? Should they? Should they have to worry if they will miss their flight?

    There was no apparent concern about informing passengers in line going to Seattle what they were supposed to do.

    I am at the airport in Seattle. It is dark and gloomy inside. Bad lighting. I am looking for the taxi stand. The signs are not clear. Finally, I see a sign that says go the X level. So, I am near the elevator and around the elevator there are 3 different letters, T, X, and P. What do they mean? Is this the X level or does this elevator take me to the X level? Is this the P level? Etc. Who are these conflicting signs talking to? There are too many signs with symbols that make no sense.

    And I am thinking, there is "no one in charge" who is insisting that the airport experience be useful and pleasurable from the standpoint of the passenger. There is a lack of ownership. There is a lack of the craftsman spirit that says "hey, let's make this airport system really, really nice for the passengers."

    No big deal, I made my flight and I found a taxi. But I had to improvise. And I find this happening over and over and over. It demonstrates an inner attitude. A category 4 non-spiritual attitude toward service to fellow human beings.

    Yesterday, I bought a lighting system for my yard. I am reading the directions. The paragraphs are numbered 1,2, 5,6. I am looking around - is there another sheet with instructions 3 and 4? Who was in charge that permitted a technical instruction to go out to 10,000 customers apparently lacking instructions 3 and 4? Was this a deliberate omission? Why?

    How does this happen? Because no one was in charge. No one said "let's look at this closely from the standpoint of the customer." Will this make sense. Is it helpful?

    I believe that we can all do each other a great service by trying to see the world from the perspective of the other. And then try to be useful and helpful. The message may be happy or it may be sad or it may seem arrogant. But it has to reflect an intention to present something to the other based on what is useful to the other. And not simply an intent to do something sloppily to satisfy an acceptable minimum.

    So, in this forum I would look for really straight forward comments about Integral concepts and the world and how they are being interpreted and what make sense and what seem to be nonsense. Etc. And if someone wants to stand in line and chit chat for 3 hours, we can let them do that of course. But for those of us who want to get to the aircraft, there should be helpful guidance.

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  •  06-03-2008, 9:23 PM 54307 in reply to 54084

    Re: The 1,2 and 3 of Manny

    Dear shalk:   I certainly do know that the energy you put forth in your Posts are very valuable for me.   I ony have time for a few thoughts tonite as tomorrow I have to have some dye shot into my hip to see if I need an operation.  I also say that as I do not know what is going to develop next but want you to know that I am eager to go over your letter and respond as you do carefully ..  I do wish that I could get to some time to work on my "presentation".  I like the big letters and the colors you use, and I want to change all this. It needs work and it seems it is down on my list of priorities.  Time and Energy.

    My oldest son said to me once when the charismatic movement was around and "speaking in tounges (sp)" was  a new age thing,  that if  he was asked,  he would choose Wisdom over speaking in tounges.   He also said when I came home from workshop and after I told the family about it at the table,  "Sounds like a bunch of old people sitting around eating yogurt and smoking dope, Mom.   I need that kind of wisdom that is fast and since he is a lawyer, admire how quicklly he makes decisions.   I agreed with him on both points.  It just wraps things up for me.  Bam. And if I recite a Rumi poem, I expect him or them to at least act like they appreciate that.

    .

    I trust the Myers/Briggs Test and have taken it several times.   I come out as an INFP     Introverted Intuitive Feeling Percieveing Type.  On the first, I am pretty much in the middle with Introvertive/Extroverted but Intro leads and I can feel that and know how true it is for me.  Lots of space when I need it or it is hard for me to function but can extrovert easily esp one on one and without all the action of a true extrovert.  Yet other times, I literally retire from the world for a couple of days and I am renewed.  I don't quit but I do quieter things with no-one around.  At least that is what I like to work.  "Columbo" says that his perfect day is a late breakfast and then paint   for the rest of the day.  (speaking of retirement)   Ditto.I  Do not paint but you get the point.  The N is for intuitive and I am way high on that. Intuitives can see around corners but they have to be careful because they start depending on that and they can be wrong but do not think they are since most of the time they can nail it.

    Hitler went off the chart as an Intuitive and wanted a perfect world- the kind he made up.   F is for Feeling and that means that we judge with Feelings.  not that we are in touch with feelings as the Thinking types are also in touch with Feelings.  They judge with thinking.  And so if I admire your shirt, I will say,  Oh I love your shirt, that pretty green and it looks like it is soo soft  and comfortable.  The Thinking type will say.  Great Shirt.  That material is like that new stuff that comes from India and is made by Master tailors.  They have mixed it with another new material and it is the best thing going.  water resistant, spot resistant even tho is still has the look of a more expensive material.

    And now the last one and this is the one I need the most balance in and the Jungians say that we do try to balance these out as we get older.

    Perception.  The opposite is Judging.   Since I am a P, I always have to have more information.  makes me a good therapist and not as judgemental.   If you invite me to your party next Wednessday,  I will stall and see if I can find out who will be there and then wait and see about the weather and how I feel on Wed. etc. For the Judging type, it is a vow and a promise if they tell you they will be there.   Same for your Posts.   I read, I consider, I digest.   I wait.   I do this for all the Posts written by people like you (if you happen to be this type.  I am guessing).  You give plenty of info but I am still thinking tomorrow there might be a change and you will add more to you idea, which you do sometimes to complement your thoughts.  For me that new info is like gold and I will wait for more, if I can get away with it and if I want to respond.  The thinking types will make a judgement/decision  pronto and stick with it-Done Settled.   There are many different types with Letters that I did not go into..

    And you probably know this stuff already.  My point in speaking of this is that when you are writing or speaking, I get that you totally trust what you are saying, that it comes pretty fast and sometimes a certain sensitivity is lost because others are of diffferent types and you are skipping the poetic and gettting the point out there.It might seem that you have just plowed over some.  When I respond to Posts like yours, it take more work for me and there are examples about my typology that would explain that.  As I have said in other places,  this test is a valuable one to take since it is rated high for validity and reliability for a personality test.   And when answers click with the test taker, they usually are right for them.

    I suspect that AQAL will be the best test of the future since there is so much information.  STill, they all complement each other and I have forgotten if emotional intelligence or what is in UL for the mystical expression.  I have trouble  still with some of it.  I am sure you have read some of the more mystical paragraphs that KW has written but he has said that he always wanted the windows down so he could listen to Bach and his wife, Treya wanted the windows up so she could hear the birds.  Always Always.,  So he claims to be more of a Thinking Type and yet when that mystical starts with him, it speaks  of so much truth and beauty about his own experience.   I am not sure where that falls, but I do not feel he is thinking when he writes it or not like the other work.  I have questions in that    one area and maybe in many more.  Like his teaching about the cognitive leading with everything.  I finally got that or maybe mind is the word he uses.Anyhow I have lots of learning to do with that and so I read Posts that go that way and if I get weary of all the theory etc.  I let it go for awhile.  There are those who are very gifted like you are in a different way. say from me,  and I think have higher IQ's (but it is the gifts that count the most). If you have both or several, well then you have the responsibility to pack it up for others and there is a price on that. And another thing I so appreciate about Ken, as do most of us/.Having said all that, my point in "telling you what to do that was "insidious" was also a mix of putting something out there and also celebrating something I pick up that I think is special.  And yes, I can be wrong    That would be that intutiion working along with some of the other and esp with the Percieving since I am only passing it on while totally open for more feedback and information.  And I am not clear.  You are so clear and precise and I would have to really work to do that.  And time is of the essence.   So it seems to me that in order to get the most out of this, we have to

    try and figure out some things others are saying.  I think Ambo is a really good writer

    and when I wanted to connect with him,  I just had to dive in there even though I  would not always be clear for him.   I do have concern for all of the people who never come on-line who want to ask questions or write suggestions or whatever.

    I really agree with most of what you said in this last Post, but still want to respond I think.    I like the way you said things better than I do my own descriptions. And yes I do love the way Ken is so careful (full of care) in his speaking and writing.  That is a sign of high intelligence, I think, getting it right on paper.  And yet there is a gentleness in those who write very simply also.  However, there are times when I feel if I am true to my own style, I get it down just fine, for me. 

    And since I know a little NLP, there are times when I can use that, if it is not plotted or planned but falls out like a loose tooth that I did not know was there.  This is such a big discussion.  So many subjects like that to choose from here.  I would love some exchange with some of the faculty on-line that could help but this almost needs to be course work.  And again, everyone is so very busy with the all the things that go with living, that we need to support one another and just do the best we can.

    Next time, I have a great example/story to tell about some of this.  This is not a Quick Reply.  When I first started,here at Integral,  we got cut off and sometimes lost the Post.  We kept asking and now some of us have turned into  Post hogs.  Bunch of STuff coming up for me and I look forward to coming back and finishing this. Later Pattye

     

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  •  06-03-2008, 11:04 PM 54317 in reply to 54307

    Re: The 1,2 and 3 of Manny

    Hi Pattye:

    I hope your tests go well. 

    Thanks for writing even though you have your medical issue in mind.

    You mentioned Myers/Briggs. I took the test once at work.

    So, here are some of the kinds of questions that are asked:

    1. Do you prefer to focus on the outer world or on your own inner world? 

    2. Do you prefer to focus on the basic information you take in or do you prefer to interpret and add meaning? 

    3. When making decisions, do you prefer to first look at logic and consistency or first look at the people and special circumstances? 

    I have a hard time even answering these kinds of questions. And I'm not even sure we should answer questions if we don't know what they even mean.

    Basically, I don't "prefer" either one.

    I remember walking around after the test with my 4 letter nametag on - we were supposed to introduce ourselves to each other. I was thinking that this is really bizarre.

    Am looking forward to to hearing that your tests went well. Take care of yourself.

     

     

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