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Dead Forever?

Last post 10-13-2007, 10:04 AM by tamgoddess. 279 replies.
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  •  05-27-2007, 11:47 PM 23448 in reply to 23447

    Re: Dead Forever?

    balder:

    Looks like the old folks are about to get it on...

    Is this what you had in mind, Tim?

    At this point, we'll take just about anything.Smile [:)]


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  05-28-2007, 1:07 PM 23478 in reply to 23433

    Re: Dead Forever?

    O, Ambo, I'm blushing, smiles, thank you.
    eros ya gape
    jess

    Phoenix Rising Higher
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  •  05-28-2007, 5:30 PM 23488 in reply to 23478

    Re: Dead Forever?

    You may not recognize me but, i've been lurking in the shadows of this site for a number of years & it has been wonderful. Many of you folks are very wise, and i am honored to have been privy to some of the insights that ya'll have imparted; which in many ways helped me navigate some difficult times in my still rather young life. My shadow-lurking has offered me an interesting perspective, one as a observer of a very deep, heart-felt and oftentimes, highly-cognitive affair in the inter-subjective we-space that is this forum. This particular dialouge set me off into a rather meditative place were I meandered this way and that, speculating on the nature of this multiplex community. One direction even led me to question the physical exsistence of Helene.

    (Perhaps, she was introduced as a aggravator, as a means to help others become bigger and find ways to inculde her seemingly green ways - The integalights using their wisdom to find better and more effective ways to embrace a perspective that seemed to move often toward fregmentation despite a genuine care behind it. I never realized how odd it was that Helene stuck around until now that she is gone. Has anyone ever met Helene face-to-face? If someone has, then obviously this theory is out-to-lunch - and I do assume that Corey would know if i am out to lunch here. I understand that this thought was purly speculative a 'if-then' affair. And if you are real Helene I am sorry that we were unable to include your perspective into a healthier and wider embrace but much effort went into this from a number of people).

    Another direction of thought landed me in the calmness of this community now. As there is indeed a beauty to it, as the fire analogy suggested, there is again great potential for growth here - the chance for this place to return to being a buzzing mecca for the leading-edge, for the visionaries that are still on occasion gracing this online community.

    For those still playing in the near deserted landscape that is this multiplex; I extend a deep bow for allowing me to witness your loving dance on this site. If the site fades away or, rejuvenates with more vibrancy then ever before, blessed am i to have experienced the glory that this site punched into on occasion. Big Smile [:D]

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  •  05-28-2007, 7:49 PM 23490 in reply to 23488

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Hi, PZ - Enjoy your lunch very much. Maybe I'll try a few morsels from the buffet [smiley emoticon].

    I like how you present this question of the reality of Helen being Helene or being an artificial creation - I like your tentativeness and readiness to jettison the idea while still being willing to voice the possibility.

    As you can tell by my humorous entree into this, I lean towards the Helene-is-a-material-entity camp. I haven't met her, but the persona feels real to me. I've had that type of thought that you're having, before, since sometimes life feels like a charade. Now, on this one, I'm going with that these are horses hoofbeats we've been hearing on the Plains of Integral, not zebras, the rarer possibility here. (Please excuse the americocentricity.)

    Did we really land on Mars, and send a robotic landcruiser bumbling about its surface taking snapshots? It could be a 'B' grade hollywood production. But I believe that it really happened because this information processor called me concludes that the information holds together.

    But reality, in the era of fantastic puzzling virtual reality, is probably harder than ever to feel sure about. Enjoy your entertaining speculations, and lunch.  What virtual delicacies are on the menu [smiley emoticon]? I say thanks for speaking out your question. Ambo

    Ambo Suno
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  •  05-28-2007, 8:52 PM 23493 in reply to 23443

    Re: Dead Forever?

          Dear Ambosuno:  Maybe I should be afraid to watch the two movies but I will check out the write-ups on the backs of copies.   I do appreciate your inclusion.  I thought maybe you had forgotten about me and I am happy that  you have a lot of  Span.  Sometimes maybe we need to be Shallow and have Span.   Or act out the shadow side of avatarism and the other things you spoke of.  Much Love Pattye
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  •  05-28-2007, 9:09 PM 23494 in reply to 23447

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Dear Balder:   LOL.   That was the native perspective of my original face illuminating.     I have to go watch Caveman Valentine.  And tomorrow  Barfly and Ironweed.   For Depth and Balance.   Later Pattye.

    PS  Took a tour of your "place".  Must have been at Zaadaz.  Talk about Depth. The Music was pretty incredible.  I was mesmerized by the lady in yellow, her beauty of course, but also the way she played that instrument- that was the most subtle gracefulness I have ever seen.  Also did Mascha's wonderful 3D or whatever and what a treat that was.  Certainly have had different perspectives this week. Thanks for hanging in there with your caring.  Love Pattye

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  •  05-29-2007, 12:59 AM 23509 in reply to 23493

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Hi, Pattye - I'm glad you got back into this conversation with me. I had a feeling that our humor and stretchings maybe got away from us, maybe didn't really feel so funny anymore.

    I think that I was partly trying to include you, and partly trying to make light. I thought that you took my exchange with Jess a little far into hubba hubba ding ding and naa naas got a naafriend. It was in the range of OK humor for me but I got a little off balance, a little embarrassed, and tried to recover - and I did want to keep it light for you and us on the forum. I think that I said all that about which you call "span", a little bit in reaction to you, to smooth things over with you, and what I said is only partly true, and partly disingenuous. I really don't want to care too much about what you or anyone thinks about who I should be interested in, what my span is, or what being "interested" in someone might look like. So I think that I made a little mistake in regard to my own integrity. But it's not a big error, and apparently I really do care about the affects of what I say on you, Jess, and others. Again, humor and play can get away from me sometimes, as does trying to placate, please, or be approved of.

    In my thread called Caveman's Valentine, though I said that I thought Jess could especially dig it, I invited everyone to watch it, including you. Your claiming a sense of exclusion didn't really fit for me, but seemed like mostly OK play, at the time.

    These movies, Ironweed with jack Nicholson and Meryll Streep, and Barfly with Mickey Rourke were very pleasing and stimulating to me when they came out. Especially Barfly. I probably watched it 3 or 4 times. I think it spoke to parts of myself. Rourke was a stupid when drunk, tough guy, a poet, I think, mostly between drinking binges. There was some relationship with a woman in there that if I recall correctly, wasn't working well.

    Ironweed I liked, but not quite as much. Though also dealing with a hard dark fringe, it was different, but I used to feel a bit connected with Jack Nicholson and really dug Streep, as well. In Ironweed,  Nicholson and Streep are alcoholics living on the edge. I don't remember the details of the movie, but they had something like a love going with one another, but were drunks and so weren't able to be a real couple. One scene that popped into my mind, when you mentioned  the Elks Club feel-up, took place in an abandoned car wreck. Streep was homeless and needed a place to stay out of the cold. In order to stay in the car through the night, she had to give the homeless resident of the car a hand job. She made quick work of it and when the ordinary pathetic bio-social act was done she got to sorta sleep - another night of survival.

    These movies were semi-shockers when they came out and I suppose that in line with your edgy humor about old Elks Club men being willing to feel you up, I thought I'd toss these into the mix. I think they were quite well done movies, and they are not up-lifters. There is no reason why you should see them, especially now that false humor fell flat, has been deconstructed ad nauseum, and I am in minor recovery from my own tomfoolery addiction. However - they are quite evocative movies and probably can be included along with other unpleasant realities.

    Well, dear Pattye, enough rambling yada yadas. And the messy show of life goes on. May the force be with you and us all, eh. [wry and chagrin smiley emoticon] Ambo

    Ambo Suno
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  •  05-29-2007, 2:48 PM 23535 in reply to 23509

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Hi Ambo:  First before I forget.  A good movie is "
    The Family Stone"  It was sort of a sleeper.   I am trying to look at what you said and I felt that I was really playing and having fun.   I did not feel left out with you and Jess because I really like you both.  I apoligize about the hubba hubba ding ding. I did not want to embarrass you.  I thought it was great that you were just being very suupportive in a loving sort of way to her..   Oh that we could be free enough to care when we care and know that sometimes we care and we don't care. And sometimes we care and other times we con't care at all.   Jess is nice enough to have some of that fun support and I was teasing.   I grew up 60 miles from Nashville and trashy is fun and we love playing to that.    Some of my first dancing was at Lost River Cave with Johnny Cash and his band in Bowling Green, Ky.  And Jess was so great to say she was blushing.   It is just loving to be Outrageous.  And I was so entertained with you doing what I thought was just that.   Still it is so sweet that you are thinking of everyone around you that might want to be included.   I still want to look at the movies.   I may have seen one because I don't think I missed  Streep and Deniro ever myself.   Summer is my time to catch up on movies and I have started early this year.

    I think it is because there is so much serious conversation going on here.  I read most everything and try to keep what I think I need.  So I am being thoughtful about what is written even if I do not respond to some.  I just do not think I can do justice to the good writing or take it much further than what I read sometimes.  And  I wanted to support Jess but was right in middle of taking another perspective.  The Fiddler on the Roof  transition stage.  I am happy you are here.  Love Pattye

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  •  05-29-2007, 6:00 PM 23547 in reply to 23535

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Again, I am saying thank you for your gracious reply, Pattye. The Family Stone sounds vaguely familiar - when I see the cover, I may remember.

    I'm nodding to your take on our exchange, and your playful intentions. Your and Jess's humor and Nashville style play sounds fun. Amazingly, I watched an old movie from 1975 last night called "Nashville". I hadn't seen it before. Wow. Strange and interesting. What stuck in my mind most, if you've seen it, was the final scene after the  country deva was shot on stage and the hanger-arounder woman who wanted a shot at singing in the opry, got up on stage and little by little began to sing in a captivating way, stabilizing the crowd in turmoil. What a fine surprise she was.

    I can do bits and pieces of trashy, but that sub-personality quickly gets self-conscious in most situations and back-pedals. The good boy tends to reign. Unless I get triggered into tough guy posturing. It's a veritable menagerie and I like to give them all air time, but I tend to revert to the tried and true (though, of course, NOT really true)

    There is a lot of serious talk here. I don't get to read all of it, even at the snails pace that I hear we are moving. Sorry that I only got a bit of your account of your daughter and her and your related travails. I would have liked to comment some empathy for you.at the time, but didn't. Same with some of the exchanges of Jess around the Helen question and inclusivity/exclusivity - I only got around to sample a little here and there.

    When one has been around awhile, there are associations with so much that is said. For you it was the Nashville scene you mentioned, me the movies, and there was one more. You said Elks Club - and I had associations. When I was in graduate school in the 70's I earned my way partly by working as a massage therapist. I had gotten certificated in LA and became the only masseur in a medium sized city in the San Joaquin Valley. I bought the tables and equipment and paid a very modest amount for the "practice" from an old chiroprator who was retiring. The practice was in two places - a somewhat exclusive country club, and the local Elks Club.  With the Elks, I physically ministered to a variety of people from young handball players to fairly successful businessmen to one aging ex-49ers lineman who was gynormous. The city was called "Nashville west" because Buck Owens and Merle Haggard lived there.

    So, I'll probably meet you again in the raunchy section of the 7th circle and try to hold the stare next time. Yo.

    Ambo Suno
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  •  05-29-2007, 9:31 PM 23552 in reply to 23547

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Pattye, I watched Family Stone (again). Yes. that's a sweet one. And sour, and salty, and rich. Too real and well-done to be smarmy. That is one busy movie. And it all holds together.

    Sarah Jessica Parker was amazing in that role. Luke Wilson played a cool hand. All of them  acted their varied parts wonderfully.  Diane Keaton is going to get some kind of life-time acting award some day.  She's found some middle-aged, all-american niches.

    I suppose that was the point in starting out with Parker - my eyes were galvanized to her and her painful character. Wow. Good one, Ambo



    Ambo Suno
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  •  05-30-2007, 10:17 AM 23569 in reply to 23552

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Here's a thought, folks:

    I've been enjoying the conversation on this thread - I mean, Ambo is incapable of being boring, he's such an exemplar of self-awareness, and the stuff about the movies caught my interest, while as a Brit I have no idea what an 'Elks Club' is, so that piqued my curiosity too...

    Yet:  why is it OK for the thread to be diverted down these winding country roads, which seemingly diverge far from Tim's original point, and no one minds at all?  While if someone else tried to do it - say You Know Who - there'd have been indignation and maybe accusations of spam?

    I'm not complaining about double standards here.  What I'm wondering is:  is this an issue about the group, and the community, and some being accepted into the group and others remaining outsiders?  And because everyone, including me, likes Ambo, noone objects if he (or others like him) wanders off the thread topic?   Whereas someone who (probably for good reason) had never become an 'insider' to the forum community would find less tolerance?   I'm not thinking only of Helen here.  What if someone new to the forum suddenly appeared in the middle of this thread and started sharing their thoughts about their favourite music, say? 

    So one comment I'd make about Tim's original question about whether the dearth of posters means that the forum is dead would be:   the life of the forum can't be judged by the quantity of posts or posters.   A quantitative measure doesn't apply.    And it can't even be judged on the quality of its posts.   6 great posts a year wouldn't make a healthy forum.   What makes a healthy forum must be the interaction, the inter-personal relating, the extent to which people listen and communicate and share.   Even if only a few people are doing that, it would still be healthy:  you can have a great party with 7 or 8 people and have a lousy time with 70 or 80, right?     If someone is listening to what I say, who cares if they respond by taking our conversation down an unexpected route?   Its likely, though, that they will at least have enough respect and regard to acknowledge what I've said.   Its when the other is ignoring what I say or talking over me that I feel out of synch with them, that communication fails, that threads falter and forums become moribund...   To take the forum in the other direction, towards vitality, all we have to do is listen.  Ever experienced someone's undivided attention, experienced them just listening to you?   It can be wonderful, can't it?   And when they do, it doesn't even matter if they say nothing at all.

    Smile [:)]   

     


    'This is all the time you'll ever have'.
    ~ Dr Hannibal Lecter
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  •  05-30-2007, 11:05 AM 23574 in reply to 23569

    Re: Dead Forever?

    You make a very important observation, David.  I hope there isn't a double standard being exhibited here, based on in-group/out-group dynamics, though of course that's certainly possible. 

    Here's what I see, for what it's worth:  the issue isn't so much about going off topic, as it is about demonstrating that you have the intention and the capacity to listen to others.  Tangents are likely to occur in all conversations, and they should not be totally discouraged (though conversations can be politely redirected elsewhere, when necessary).  The issue is more about the nature of one's patterns of participation in the forum as a whole.  If someone often comments, "I haven't read the discussion, but..." and launches into a personal story, perhaps based loosely on a word or two in the title, and does this on a regular basis, I believe that's a very different pattern from individuals who respond thoughtfully to posts as a regular practice, and who occasionally launch into tangents when something in the overall discussion prompts them to do so. 

    With Helene, who had a habit of posting unrelated comments on a majority of threads, and who frequently commented that she hadn't read (or couldn't be bothered to read) the current discussion, the problem was not that she went on tangents on occasion, but that she had a habit of essentially interrupting conversations to post unrelated material and apparently had little interest in actually listening to others, respecting their wishes, etc.  If someone asked Ambo not to derail a conversation, I am sure his response would be quite different from Helene's.


    May the boundless knowledge that time presents and space allows illuminate the native perspectives of your original face.

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  •  05-30-2007, 12:48 PM 23580 in reply to 23574

    Re: Dead Forever?

    balder:

      the issue isn't so much about going off topic, as it is about demonstrating that you have the intention and the capacity to listen to others. 



    Couldn't agree more. The issue is a social and interpersonal issue and was never anybody's intention to solve here with any kind of a strict amber rule i.e. "post off topic and suffer the consequences." Or "the new rule is that off topic comments will immediately be deleted." That is a police state and below any modern standard of free speech and free discourse, much less free discourse in an Integral  or second tier community space. It is about preconventional, egocentric  or pre-social social interactions. i.e. i am unconcerned with how, why or in what way my choices and actions hurt or effect others.

    Personally, what really drew my attention to the reality of this issue was interections between Helen and Balder.  (Smile [:)] ) Balder has got to be one of the kindest, gentlest most diplomatic human beings on the face of this earth. But as we know he is also one of the most serious that there ever was around these parts about using the forums as a means of serious communal Integral topic exploration. To watch here continually antagonize him, just becasue she could and just becasue she knew it would bother him and just becasue she knew no one would stop her . . . well, does the issue really need any further exploration?

    It is about anti-social social interaction and ultimtely little else.

    Now, as far as this thread . . . I said above "right now we'll take anything" or something along those lines. Thus, I personally am unconcerned at the moment about staying on topic, at least there's some topic!

    And again,

    Hey, Ambo and Pattye;

    if I asked you to take your conversation to another thread, would you?


    Peace, Tim

    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  05-30-2007, 1:40 PM 23582 in reply to 23574

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Balder and Tim

    balder:

    the issue isn't so much about going off topic, as it is about demonstrating that you have the intention and the capacity to listen to others. 

    Yes.  That's the point I was making:  the vitality of the forum depends almost entirely on that intention and that capacity.

    Example:   Balder demonstrates that he has listened to me and then amplifies and offers his own further thoughts.  Tim responds likewise and then reaches out (entertainingly) to Ambo and Pattye.

    Its not rocket science, but it IS the necessary process for the kind of inter-subjectivity we might value as health in an internet forum.  Verbally, it would be the kind of basic social skills, mainly unnoticed, which allow relationships and groups and societies to flourish.

    As for Helen, Tim, perhaps one more thing does need exploring just for a brief moment:  by refusing to listen, or perhaps by being unable to listen, she excluded herself from the community of those who were prepared to listen.   In saying this, I'm just trying to learn what lesson I can from this unhappy business - the formal exclusion was really just a confirmation of her own self-exclusion from the community.   And I take from that the conclusion that to encourage listening, mainly by demonstrating it oneself, is to promote the health of the forum.   My several years of forum membership have taught me quite a few such lessons!  Smile [:)]   And actually, Tim, when I mentioned the 55,000 hits which the Integral Relationships thread received, and you commended me for hitting on a good topic, I'd add that we can learn more about how to make the forum work than the importance of choosing interesting topics.  Threads have to be tended and cultivated if they are to grow and flourish, they rarely just happen spontaneously.  Pretty soon someone will, usually accidentally, take it down a dead end, or it will lose its way, and maybe that's OK sometimes, while at other times there'd be a benefit in leading it subtly back on track even without people noticing... Hey, whaddya know, it just happened in this thread.... Wink [;)]

    ~ D

     


    'This is all the time you'll ever have'.
    ~ Dr Hannibal Lecter
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  •  05-30-2007, 3:42 PM 23584 in reply to 23580

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Dear Tim:  Thank you for  using my Name and being straight up.   The answer to your question is YES I WILL AND I HAVE,    I HAVE WHEN IT HAS BEEN HINTED,  I HAVE WHEN I HAVE  been IGNORED.    And rarely have I ever just bopped in on a conversation that is really moving along with the rhythm that I know you are talking about.   I am willing to follow the rules of the House as I have stated and go to another place to play.   There is a reason for all that.    I have made mistakes and  I forget when things slow down and no one is making any more comments etc.   None of this that we are talking about now does anything for me.  Like I said before,  I know I am transparent.  You guys are transparent also.  The two people I will miss in this particular conversation are Ambo ane Balder, also. WE can agree on that.  I love them both and being able to really care about people online is a joy.   However, I also wish the rest of you Peace also and hope that you will have many more conversations that make you happy.  When I go to Zaadaz, I like to read Balder and a couple of others from over there.   I really like arthurs pictures and some of his articles.   I am not as interested  in David or Tim and that does not make you anything.  I got private messages from a few that chose not to get into this again and again and I appreciated that.   I got one very rude private note and that did not make any difference to me.  And I did have an instance in this experience of helping someone and it looked as if I was out of my mind.  I chose to help and it was the only thing to do.  I had to talk a lanquage that could have been looked down on.  That was a surprise and is over.   Ihave been true to myself and looked like a real space cadet at off times..   I like Ambo because he does not always have  to have it together and other reasons.  And Balder for his gentle nature and helpfulness.  It is OK if some of us just don't see eye to eye on things.  I understand irritating others because I am just as irritated with perfection and sometimes polite pissing contests.  Hey the House gets into that mode also.  That is the way it goes.  No one is perfect all the time.   I am not willing to try and draw up a plan to work this out because that is not my MO.  I can email people if I really want to.   And I am not willing to hang around with these conversations.   I am not mad and I am not someone who gets hit in the head and says   "Oh that does not hurt.   and hit again and say  Oh that does not hurt.    But when it is not too enjoyable, I don't want to stick around.  I won't run away immediately.  I want to see what goes and what you want to do about all this or tell me what to do and if that works, I will go for it.   I imagiane I need to go read the Road Rules again.   Maybe they do not work for me either.   Arthur has been clear that he does not want comments with his pictures and I honor that.   And there are those who could hurt me but just haven"t and won't.   I think that is it.  Peace to you all also.  Love Pattye

     

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