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reincarnation

Last post 09-14-2006, 7:00 AM by Helene. 175 replies.
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  •  08-08-2006, 1:50 AM 3705 in reply to 3623

    Re: reincarnation

    timelody:
    Oh, and by the way Mascha, I know you kind of answered this at the end of your post, but I still think it is a valid question: Why are you here?

    Wink [;)]Smile [:)]


    Let's see...
    I came here to feel everything and in the later stages feel everything at once. I came to dance.

    What about you? Why are you here, integral ladies & gentlemen?
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  •  08-08-2006, 5:21 AM 3707 in reply to 3705

    Re: reincarnation

    Mascha, I came for the sole reason of being a pain in your ass!

    (Yeah! Gotcha!Stick out tongue [:P])

     Okay, just kidding. WOW, . . . this thread has my chakras bubbling over. I'm going to answer things one at a time.

     Where to begin. . . . .

     


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  08-08-2006, 5:54 AM 3708 in reply to 3640

    Re: reincarnation

    Justin:

    DESIRE....It appears that "DESIRE" itself is the operative motivation that impels the process itself

    Desire is the Descending current

    Couple the Descending with the Ascending

    and you're really onto something . . .

    I think the secret translates into: Evolution.

     

     


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  08-08-2006, 6:59 AM 3709 in reply to 3647

    Re: reincarnation

    balder:

    Very interesting discussion, all of you.  For many years, I never paid much attention to this topic.  My rationalization was that, whether or not it was true, it wouldn't impact my overall orientation -- that waking up is about this life, that spirituality is about now, not about new opportunities or rewards in the future.  But taking a fuller, more nuanced perspective on the issue now, I recognize that the implications of the truth or falsity of reincarnation could impact our social, spiritual, and educational institutions significantly, on a number of levels.  We can see, in cultures that embrace belief in reincarnation, both positive and negative social impacts.  I believe we have to be mindful of this as we go forward -- but I believe going forward on this issue is quite important, particularly given the evidence gathered by Dr. Stevenson and others.  At the very least, it is a topic that should be approached by the Integral community using the best tools that an IMP approach can offer.

    Wow. As usual, very well said. It will could also profoundly effect parenting. Or at the very least, open it up to new perspectives that could, it very much seems, lessen some of the more major causes of samsara (where samsara is defined as: useless suffering or unnecessary suffering). And an evolutionary push? Major.

    It is true that now is the only thing that matters. But, what I think we need to be more interested in is what exactly is now? What is here and now, completely present, that we are simply unaware of?

    I walked around for 17 years of my life being heavily influenced by and operating through and with a major traumatic experience in early childhood in this life. We are constructed out of our past, and until it has been exhausted or set straight (or healthy), or perhaps truly realized (positive), it still remains in the present -and so determines the future. So it is true that now is what matters, but all three times are one. Ultimately what we are talking about is a fuller awakening to that one stream.

     

    balder:
      I did undergo a regression once and had a fairly intense vision of lurking at the edges of a caravan moving through the desert.  I was able to get a name for the place, but have never found it on a map or in history books. 

    This, and some of the other things you said are the kinds of things that I think are very, very tricky and need to be examined in some sort of zone#2 fashion-an objective of that subjective. And then, not only that but checked against as much other evidence as possible from the other zones and quadrants (particularly the LL, both inside and outside). The reason these things are tricky is, I think, because of the extremely fluid, mallable and or highly symbolic nature of the subtle but also because of the mysterious nature of memory -or even better, the reconstructive nature of  memory, especially if we are considering that, if anything, from the past, it seems it is being completely reconstructed (and influenced) by certainly an entirely new gross level mind (or mind-system) and if we are correct an at least newer tera or meta mind (sytem-psychic, subtle, soul, etc). Does that makes sense? All that stuff is actually really gone and what we get now is something more akin to an echo . . . .

    The Knowing is or may be certain, but whatever is truly there is also now formless . . .. and so I think we have to be careful in how seriously we take the literalness of the form. That doesn't mean it can't be exact, it just means we should, I think, be very careful . . .

    This has a great deal to do with fangsz dream.

    (and I also think I just addressed about two or three different things there, but . . . we'll keep talking as we go on . . .)

     

     

    balder:
     As I said, both of these experiences could be examples of premonition rather than vestiges of past-life memory.  But perhaps there is some overlap. Why would I have these images in mind in the first place?  Or this attraction to India?

    I think the key is simply further examination (which I guess I wont get into now) but I do think you have the right attitude, allowing the verdict still to be out.

    But also look at what you have just said. Is it memory or attraction? Um, I think it is probably both!

    See?Wink [;)] now we're onto something . . . and hopefully the mystery deepens. (God knows how to play hide and seek.)

    balder:
     I've also entertained the idea, semi-seriously, that I was once a priest or a monk in the Catholic Church.  I have an inexplicable (to me) connection to it, even though I largely disagree with its orthodox teachings.  Sitting outside of churches, I have experienced deep feelings of longing and "homecoming," and I strongly related to Merton's account of entering the priesthood.  I've also had astrological and other readings done which have suggested something similar.

    This makes so much sense to me Bruce, not only because of what I can gather from you, but because it so matches my own experiences. Good God! I wonder if we severd together!? (Stick out tongue [:P])

    On a more serious note, Victor Hugo fill the first fifty pages of Les Miserables describing the life of the Bishop who is to be an important character in the story. . . . I still get goose-bumps even mentioning it. I just kept saying WHY does this seem so unspeakably familiar? Why is Hugo describing my life! (Note time period) And why does this life filling my imagination so identify with me? (And why I am nearly, literally wrenched with wanting to "go back' to it? I am wondering Bruce if you have ever seriously considered being a preist? What a nice life it would be? Wow, I could really see myself doing that? Oh, it would be fun! And yet . . . I can't . . .?) This is just one example but it is the essence of a lot that has been such a recurring experience that (this is a note on some of your above "whys?") can not be reduced to anything within this life. They do not come from anything having to do with the boy who grew up in the midwest and was born in 1971 . . . nor anything he has experienced since.

    Okay, enough for you. (Now I'm in trouble!Big Smile [:D]I see a future filled with myriad more opportunities for me to give inadequate responses . . . . if only there was more time . . .)

     


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  08-08-2006, 7:37 AM 3711 in reply to 3704

    Re: reincarnation

    quote-snippit 'Notes' p.312 from Wilber's  The Eye of Spirit first::

    "... any given dream symbol might in fact be a carrier of meaning from virtually any level of the spectrum of consciousness, and often the same symbol can simultaneously carry numerous multilevel meaning."

    i agree

    and then there are meditation image drop-ins, which too can carry same multilevel charge/meaning....all in all all 'seperate parts' come from Self-same source, so there we have it. soo simple really:(

    like the time, years ago,  in a hands-on 'dead man' pose meditation  , i heard  "Manjusri" ' jumping'out of my left temple on a straight, 'percolating' (sounding) beem of energy . truth be told i had to look up 'manjusri' to see which religion  he belongs to.

    should i assume i was manjusri? ... well, if i can be a homless Beggar, than wotahey! why not Him?

    h

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  •  08-08-2006, 8:16 AM 3715 in reply to 3711

    Re: reincarnation

    Peter, I am working ona response on talent . . . hold tight.

    But I want to throw this out there now for everyone, as to, at least one reason why I feel this subject is important.

    What is I had follwed that "preistly desire?"

    What if I had said -this is what God wants me to do! I have seen it an I feel it so strongly! I am meant to be a priest . . . .?

    Would it have been a step forward or a step back? Would it have realsed me from samsara or only further entangled me in it?

    The more you are aware of what drives you . . .


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  08-08-2006, 8:24 AM 3717 in reply to 3715

    Re: reincarnation

    Good God as a result of this discussion, I may have just put another interesting piece into place.

    More later . . .Smile [:)]


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  08-08-2006, 8:27 AM 3719 in reply to 3711

    Re: reincarnation

    Helene:

    quote-snippit 'Notes' p.312 from Wilber's  The Eye of Spirit first::

    "... any given dream symbol might in fact be a carrier of meaning from virtually any level of the spectrum of consciousness, and often the same symbol can simultaneously carry numerous multilevel meaning."

    Thanks for that quote Helene. The dude knows everything!

     


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
    • Post Points: 35
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  •  08-08-2006, 8:55 AM 3722 in reply to 3719

    Re: reincarnation

    hey! takes one to know one, eh?

    and speaking of priestly desires....heck if i wasn't curious once upon what the quija board was all about...and experimented with my partner some, till it got boring and i laughed...all in all, it was somwhat intereseting- like the time i asked where i lived and got "egypt", then naturally i asked what time period and  occupation , and got somt. like '1 thousand and something ( common era ) and "priest" from "priestly familly"

    which was better than getting i was cleopatra or somt...

    i soo had a dream long ago...walking in my church shyly up the right isle towards the altar...not thinking for what...just walking with determination....once standing on the altar, facing the gathered , i raised my arms high in a 'blessing all' gesture...noticed the ceiling above wasn't all that attractive....then shyly walked out the other isle.

    hmmm, right?

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  •  08-08-2006, 9:07 AM 3723 in reply to 3719

    Re: reincarnation

    Hi,

    Man, this thread far exceeds any expectations I had about it when it started!

    Today, I received one of the Michael Newton books I ordered, Journey of Souls. More on that book later, but I just came across a section that gave me chills. The following is a piece of a dialogue between Newton (Dr. N) and a person in deep trance, a 'beginner soul', who was a girl named Shavez in his or her very first life. In that life, she was killed in 1260 AD in Northern Syria by a Mongol invasion. Ahmed is her brother in that life.
    Dr. N: Go back further to the time before you and Ahmed had your life together, perhaps when you were alone. What was it like being created?

    S: (disturbed) I don't know... I was just here... with thought...

    Dr. N: Do you remember during your own creation when you first began to think as an intelligent being?

    S: I realized... I existed... but I didn't know myself as myself until I was moved into this quiet place alone with Ahmed.

    Dr. N: Are you saying your individual identity came more into focus when you began interacting with another soul entity besides your guide?

    S: Yes, with Ahmed.

    ....

    Dr. N: Who actually created you and Ahmed?

    S: The One.


    "All nations should be like Amsterdam" -- Ken Wilber
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  •  08-08-2006, 9:14 AM 3724 in reply to 3723

    Re: reincarnation

    I havn't got that far yet -- rereading it slowly this time, maybe 20 pages a day. I remember that dialogue from last time though, I found it really quite powerful.

    Gavin

    Haunted by the familiarity of inner softness behind frozen eyes
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  •  08-08-2006, 9:16 AM 3725 in reply to 3724

    Re: reincarnation

    Actually forget that, I'm thinking of a different example from his other book.

    Gavin

    Haunted by the familiarity of inner softness behind frozen eyes
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  •  08-08-2006, 9:19 AM 3726 in reply to 3724

    Re: reincarnation

    Hi Gavin,

    infimitas:
    I havn't got that far yet -- rereading it slowly this time, maybe 20 pages a day. I remember that dialogue from last time though, I found it really quite powerful.
    I skipped some chapters because I first wanted to read about the different levels of soul maturity, since I'm wondering if these levels are somehow related to structure-stages, or to states, or to both.

    Peter


    "All nations should be like Amsterdam" -- Ken Wilber
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  •  08-08-2006, 9:59 AM 3728 in reply to 3723

    Re: reincarnation

    kessels:
    Man, this thread far exceeds any expectations I had about it when it started! Today, I received one of the Michael Newton books I ordered, Journey of Souls. More on that book later, but I just came across a section that gave me chills.

    Yes. I wanted to mention the "goose bump method of verification" for the past two days. Over the years I have learned that the body tells me when something (that can't be objectively verified right now) is important and 'true' and thus a guideline: the hair on my entire body stands up. Exclamation marks on my skin, saying, pay attention!!!

    Timelody gets these chills - why?

    kessels:
    Dr. N: Who actually created you and Ahmed?

    S: The One.

    That exchange gives me teeth-chattering chills, meaning: truth vibrates the bodymind, i.e. the message CANNOT BE IGNORED even if egoic mind wanted to.

    Also, everyone posting in this thread has something much deeper to contribute than meets the surface eye in my view. The seemingly out-of-left-field energy ball that Vairachna threw in, asking if someone knew about Akenathen, keeps giving me chills even now. I simply accept that all relevant information why that is so is available to me if I only pay attention and let the information unfold.

    M
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  •  08-08-2006, 10:53 AM 3737 in reply to 3715

    Re: reincarnation

    Hi, Timelody,

    timelody:
    It is true that now is the only thing that matters. But, what I think we need to be more interested in is what exactly is now? What is here and now, completely present, that we are simply unaware of?

    I walked around for 17 years of my life being heavily influenced by and operating through and with a major traumatic experience in early childhood in this life. We are constructed out of our past, and until it has been exhausted or set straight (or healthy), or perhaps truly realized (positive), it still remains in the present -and so determines the future. So it is true that now is what matters, but all three times are one. Ultimately what we are talking about is a fuller awakening to that one stream.


    Yes, I agree, Tim.  You put it very well.  When I used to object to "reincarnation talk" (I was living in Sedona!  It was all around me!), my main argument was simply that what matters is how I respond to present manifestations of problems, shadows, etc, and it doesn't matter if I can trace them back to childhood or to a past life as an abused slave.  At that time, I think I probably downplayed the value of psychological work in favor of mindfulness.  My opinion since then has changed -- though not to the other extreme.  I think knowledge of past lives can be helpful, personally -- and that knowledge of the actuality of reincarnation may have powerful implications on many levels -- but I still do not think it should be overblown.  Because I think it is easy to over-emphasize such "memories" and stories, simply because they're sensational; but they can easily become a distraction or a "trap of fascination."
     
    I wrote: I did undergo a regression once and had a fairly intense vision of lurking at the edges of a caravan moving through the desert.  I was able to get a name for the place, but have never found it on a map or in history books. 

    You replied: This, and some of the other things you said are the kinds of things that I think are very, very tricky and need to be examined in some sort of zone#2 fashion--an objective of that subjective. And then, not only that but checked against as much other evidence as possible from the other zones and quadrants (particularly the LL, both inside and outside). The reason these things are tricky is, I think, because of the extremely fluid, mallable and or highly symbolic nature of the subtle but also because of the mysterious nature of memory -- or even better, the reconstructive nature of  memory, especially if we are considering that, if anything, from the past, it seems it is being completely reconstructed (and influenced) by certainly an entirely new gross level mind (or mind-system) and if we are correct an at least newer tera or meta mind (sytem-psychic, subtle, soul, etc). Does that makes sense? All that stuff is actually really gone and what we get now is something more akin to an echo . . . .

    Yes, it seems likely to me also that, for many of us, if we really did have past lives, and if we retain any past life traces, they probably show up as echoes, intimations, vague shadows, inchoate longings, abiding interests or attractions or aversions...  But there are also those cases which are incredibly detailed, with very specific memories that relate to the lives an individual who has passed away relatively recently (within the memory of living individuals).  It is these types of stories that form the bulk of Dr. Stevenson's most compelling evidence for the verity of the phenomenon of rebirth or reincarnation.

    Timelody:
    I think the key is simply further examination (which I guess I wont get into now) but I do think you have the right attitude, allowing the verdict still to be out.

    That seems like the only reasonable position, especially for someone with so little experience in that area.  I'm certainly no posterchild for the truth of reincarnation.  I've had quite a few spiritual and/or anomalous experiences, but very few which lend themselves to a "past life" interpretation.  Others here may be in a better position to take a firm stand on this issue.  For me, I can only say, I am open to it.

    I wrote: I've also entertained the idea, semi-seriously, that I was once a priest or a monk in the Catholic Church.  I have an inexplicable (to me) connection to it, even though I largely disagree with its orthodox teachings.  Sitting outside of churches, I have experienced deep feelings of longing and "homecoming," and I strongly related to Merton's account of entering the priesthood.  I've also had astrological and other readings done which have suggested something similar.

    You replied: This makes so much sense to me Bruce, not only because of what I can gather from you, but because it so matches my own experiences. Good God! I wonder if we severd together!?

    I'll bet my cassock we did!  For a number of years in my late teens and early twenties, I seriously considered entering the priesthood or becoming a monk.  I interviewed with priests from different orders and called monasteries.  I looked for ages for the address to Gethsemani Abbey, fruitlessly requesting priests for it, and eventually found it on a tin of fruitcake sitting in my refrigerator all that time!  (I admit I thought that was a sign from God at the time...)

    Even recently, I have felt similar inexplicable urges towards the life of a priest, the life of ministry in the church -- even though, as I said, I no longer accept most of its teachings, and would find the atmosphere (and center of gravity) in most of them to be stifling and inhibiting.  Like you, I have considered that acting on this urge, in this life, would somehow be regressive.  I'm not sure of that, but that is a general feeling I have -- and I recently got a "reading" which shocked me by giving me the exact same conclusion.

    Best wishes,

    Fr. Balder


    May the boundless knowledge that time presents and space allows illuminate the native perspectives of your original face.

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