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Integral Parenting Thread!

Last post 04-11-2007, 11:13 PM by miriam. 161 replies.
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  •  08-15-2006, 3:52 AM 4341 in reply to 4323

    Re: Issues

    Hi Turtle,

     

    >>what do you think would have happened if you had not responded the way you did in those two instances?<<

     

    Harm, or injury would have been the result.

     

    >>Also, do you think there may have been other possible solutions to dealing with your fears? <<

     

    Awareness of danger is not the same as fear. The big advantage of suchness is that things are seen as they are in their essence, without necessarily moving to a place of emotional response to them, although in the second example cited their was time for that and other forms of review later.

     

    On a deeper level, my view is that things happen the only way they can happen, and that to change to course of events is not so easy to accomplish. However, i also hold to the view that taking aim, say trying to live harmlessly, predisposes us, or opens us to employing higher more inclusive tools, such as intuition in situations where mere thought is just too slow to meet the demands of complicated situations like parenting –probably the most difficult thing i have ever attempted in my life.

     

    I cannot accurately predict how i will act in any sort of future scenario; living in nowness, precludes this sort of prognostication, although i do have tendencies, guided by the aims or direction i have chosen for my life. 

     

    Warmly,

     

    Charles

    88W18'28" 41N58'02"

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  •  08-15-2006, 8:34 PM 4396 in reply to 4341

    • rosecpw is not online. Last active: 04-07-2008, 1:57 PM rosecpw
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    Re: Issues

    Hi Charles,

    I am really appreciating your posts.

     However, i also hold to the view that taking aim, say trying to live harmlessly, predisposes us, or opens us to employing higher more inclusive tools, such as intuition in situations where mere thought is just too slow to meet the demands of complicated situations like parenting –probably the most difficult thing i have ever attempted in my life.

    Intuition-- this is such a good point. Sometimes I just have to trust my intuition. I'm an intuitive type anyway and go by intuition in many situations. The problem I've encountered occurs when my intuition is clouded and skewed by my shadow. And by definition I don't always know when that's occuring. Something feels right, but in hindsight I can realize that feeling was influenced by my own emotional needs.


    For example, you mentioned that your kids had a lot of freedom-- maybe too much, I think you said. My daughter too. Now I realize that some of those freedoms were in response to my emotional needs. They seemed intuitive at the time, before I became more self aware. But I was responding to my own inner child instead of my daughter. Sometimes the (unconscious) pressure from my inner child confuses me and masquarades as intuition.

    So-- my question going forward is how to discern in the moment whether I'm feeling guided by intuition or inner child/ shadow?

    In fact, that has been one of my biggest problems with intuition--period. How to tell when intuition has been corrupted-- so to speak. The only thing I can come up with is measuring my anxiety level. Too much anxiety is a signal to me that there's some shadow element influencing me.

    Ongoingly-- though-- I'm interested in tips on how to distinguish between intution and ego sytonic shadow issues. Any thoughts?

    And BTW, Charles,I personally think you acted well in difficult situations. Particularly the second time with your older son-- which seems the harder choice. And you felt guilty too, even though you did your best.

    Honestly, parenting is just much harder than I thought before I was a parent!

    Robin

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  •  08-16-2006, 7:50 AM 4425 in reply to 4396

    Re: Issues

    rosecpw:


    Honestly, parenting is just much harder than I thought before I was a parent!

     

     

    The perspectival shift from being -no matter what age-just a kid, to actually becoming a parent, is, as far as I am concerned, a shift in comprehension of Reality second only to Enlightenment itself.

    That should be a good thing.

    But, somehow, I believe, we have been trained- conditioned and persuaded, heavily persuaded to the very core of our beings- not to allow that shift to occur.

    Because deep down, secretly, lost in a cloud of smoke and hidden in immense shadow -we hate parenting. And we hate parents.

    Our culture, the green revolution, has taught us that in reality parents . . . are bad. Parents, yes indeed, are bad things. Don't listen to them They are just stupid and don't know what they're talking about.

    And somewhere in there is the ultra-hyper-sensitivity surrounding the notion of "spanking."

    Jesus said to turn the other cheek. That notion is a big face slap to the ego. It says, your prescious little cheek is not so special enough to warrant violence, and should, yes, be sacrificed in the name of Real Peace if necessary.

    Are our prescious little behinds that we would much rather demand that our parents kiss, homage and worship any different?

    Seriously. Everybody think about that. Everybody who is reading this. How prescious is your butt?

    I don't know if she really realizes it, but Turtle has actually, at least through her language, suggested that while his son was coming at him with a knife! -Charles was the one who had issues with "his fears."

    Is anybody really kidding me?

    The entire Kosmos is turned on it's head in such a notion -but it's everywhere and packed deeply inside all of us. We hate parents. And we hate to actually grow up, stand up, make the difficult decisions, and dare to actually be parents. LIke our parents did for us. Or at least should have.

    It is the lowest stages -the lowest-that are going to come at you with a knife.

    Sure, my son, now 2 1/2 is not really powerful enough to hurt me . . . but if somewhere along the line something does not change, and he does not grow to learn respect for others at the sacrifice of his ego, beginning we me, yes, me and my wife, mom and dad, the evil bastard, “harsh” authoritarian parents, then what will happen is what is happening all over the world right now; the lowest stages of evolution have put literally upon an altar of worship! Dare to challenge them-the sacred, precious, gifts to the world, surely always, just simply gold! children- and you have committed the world's most horrendous crimes, and very soon, it is now happening daily, what you have

    - is a grown up two year old.

     One that will kill you, or kill himself.

    And we wonder in awe what is happening in the world. And we are supposed to just sit back and take it. Becasue we the parents are inherently too bad to challenge it. To do something about it. To demand that our children grow up. We are supposed to assume our rightful place in head bowing submission to the precious, glorious, sacred "children."

    Nobody is talking about "beating up on somebody smaller than you" -and that is now nothing more than a true cultural epithet to express our hatred for parenting, and especially for parenting that would assume some sort of authority and not just ask, preen, beg or "persuade," but demand, that our children grow up.

    And the keys to that occurring happens early. When they are small. Or it is very soon going to be too late.

    The world is falling apart, literally, and evolution is being turned on it's head, because we don't like parents.

    And now, like "the children" before, we are just too damn scared to stand up and actually do something about it!

    We are just too damn scared of being "a bad parent"

    which we secretly know we already are anyway, because ALL parents are bad; walking around on eggshells in worship and for upsetting the lowest and most narcissistic stages of evolution, and never -God forbid, never, ever-demanding that they grow past it.

    We hate our parents –and now, as a parent, I am reactive to it.

    The universe is upside down because if I am to truly love my kids, and dare and risk whatever it takes, to sacrifice my ego and risk being “a bad parent” and actually tell them to grow up . . . . I am to be seen as the most horrendous criminal in the world. There is something just way fucked up about that.

    The lowest stages of consciousness, have been placed upon an altar of worship.

    I don’t know about anyone else, but I am not going to be coming to that party.

    I made this decision a long time ago, standing in a Starbucks, in a public place, it finally hit me that I don’t give a damn about what the surrounding culture may think of me. I love my children too much and want to see them grow.

    I am not going to place the lowest stages of narcissism on an altar of worship! I am going to raise my children and not sit back and see them die before me . . . as in reality . . . they just may. And children are every day now when they are finally old enough that you can do little about it. It is a culture of narcissus. And it is suicidal.

    I love them too much to allow that to happen. I love them more than myself and so, brand me a  mean father, brand me the worst criminal imaginable, brand me whatever the freak you want,

    I am not going to worship the lowest stages of evolution. Not all around me, in the culture, and certainly not in my children.

    I am so sorry if this upsets people. Upsets the sacred laws of the church of narcissus.

    For the sake of my children, I don't give a damn.

    And so sorry again.

    Signed, a dad who loves his children.

     

    Oh, and yes,

    I will spank them  -if I have to.

    I want them to stay alive . . . .

     

     


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  08-16-2006, 7:51 AM 4426 in reply to 4341

    Re: Issues

    Before I go any further, I really do want to remind people that I absolutely believe Charles did his best for the situation at the time. And I absolutely agree that you can't change what happened. I also believe that you can learn from what happened so that you can be more effective in the future.

    I also want to note that I, myself, have hurt others out of a desire to stop them from being destructive, and I've done a lot of analysis as a result of my experiences, and come to some different conclusions than Charles has. That's why I'm sharing my thoughts here, to offer another perspective...

    charlesb:
    Harm, or injury would have been the result.


    Are you sure? I agree that there might very well have been harm done but as you say, you can't predict the future, so you really don't know what would have happened, right?

    Also, your actions did lead to harm being done. So, if your goal was to prevent harm, I would say you failed :-)

    I think you've got it right in that aiming for a life that avoids causing harm is helpful in finding ways to do just that. I, myself, have found it immensely helpful to regularly step back and take a look a the direction my actions are taking me and see if they are in line with the direction I believe I should be heading. If I seem to be going in circles or backwards even, I like to check my mental map and see if I can't find a way to get back on course. Maybe I'm missing a turn that's been hidden by my shadow...

    Peace, Love, and Bicycles
    Turtle
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  •  08-16-2006, 8:04 AM 4428 in reply to 4425

    Re: Issues

    Ouch! Sounds like I struck a nerve Tim! Sorry about that!

    I guess I'm not being very clear in my discussion here, because my goal is to keep kids as healthy and non-dead as possible! I just see differnt ways of approaching this goal. The methods I've seen and practiced have worked extremely well, and have helped many kids become very responsible and compassionate and safe, even the ones who came in highly disturbed and destructive.

    I'm really sorry that my explanations here haven't been able to make that clear. Hopefully, I can communicate that more effectively in the future.

    I'm going to take a break for a while from this discussion, and see if that helps. Clearly, my goal of not causing harm is not being met if my words have caused Tim to be so upset!

    Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
    Turtle
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  •  08-16-2006, 8:53 AM 4429 in reply to 4396

    Re: Issues

    Hi Robin,

     

    Hmmm. . . tips on integrating intuition, this is a big issue; but a likely starting point is an overview of the place that intuition holds in what might be called the grand scheme. In broad terms intuition provides a link or conduit between the world of thought and the world of truth (or spirit), it is analogous to the world of feelings which links thought and action.  Just consider for a moment what happens when a thought bypasses feeling and moves directly into action: all sorts of mischief can ensue. Then, consider, if you will, that both feelings and intuitions are in essence expression of the feminine, and provide a necessary moderating influence on what is otherwise an un-checked masculine expression. Armed with this rough overview, intuition then is something to be courted, to be wooed, and even romanced.

     

    Feelings, in and of themselves, are quite marvelous; they make for great splashes of color in what would otherwise be a world differentiated only by shades of grey. They are not in essence, reliable guides to action.  

     

    In simpler terms your inquiry, “I'm interested in tips on how to distinguish between intuition and ego sytonic shadow issues.” boils down to differentiating between impulsiveness and spontaneity.  Impulsiveness always has a motive; it seeks gain for the separate self. By comparison, spontaneity is innocent and free of these self-imposed limits and has access to the more inclusive worlds beyond. Ego, shadow issues are always the result of some sort of motivation -a movement either towards or away from something seen as separate from us. These are the twin destroyers of the real: fear and desire.

     

    Happily, there is an easy and fun way to reel in or re-call projections. I am just back from four days in the mountains with Genpo Roshi, and immersion in his Big Mind/Big Heart process. Part of that process gives voice to dis-owned or neglected parts of us that fuel projection, the chief manifestation of shadow. To the extent that these un-integrated voices are allowed, even encouraged to speak up, the need to project is undermined.

     

    So to review:

    1.)    see intuition in context

    2.)    recognize it as feminine

    3.)    woo it

    4.)    armed with full attention -trust it

     

    Finally, accept the fact that as surely as we are mortal that we will surely make mistakes and to see these errors as part of the learning curve; this is a key to avoiding the energy drain that is the otherwise inevitable result of making war with ourselves.

     

    Warmly,

     

    Charles

    88W18'28" 41N58'02"

     

    p.s. and from my latest posting at http://charles-on-redbridge.blogspot.com/ called “Dutch Treat” here is a link to a Netherlands TV video that gives an introductory taste of Genpo in action. http://cgi.omroep.nl/cgi-bin/streams?/tv/bos/archief/bb.20040425.rm

     

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  •  08-16-2006, 9:28 AM 4431 in reply to 4396

    Re: Issues

    rosecpw:
      So-- my question going forward is how to discern in the moment whether I'm feeling guided by intuition or inner child/ shadow?

    In fact, that has been one of my biggest problems with intuition--period. How to tell when intuition has been corrupted-- so to speak. The only thing I can come up with is measuring my anxiety level. Too much anxiety is a signal to me that there's some shadow element influencing me.

    hi robin,

    i think that's a good signal---the anxiety.  one way to deal with the question might be to try not analyzing it.  offer your guidance lightly (assuming it's not a situation where you must stand your parental ground) and let it go.  if it's genuine intuition but at too high a level for the child then it won't be understood and, vice versa, if it's driven by your shadow it might still be valuable for your child.  in either case, the approach is not to have too much investment in the result.  if you can't do that, then you're likely back to using the anxiety gauge. 

    later,

    gene

     

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  •  08-16-2006, 12:28 PM 4456 in reply to 4425

    Re: Issues

    Tim,

    That was a beautiful defense of parenting.  Bravo Cool [H]

    I too, have been thinking about parenting issues lately in the context of Boomeritis Parenting, and what that might be.  And I think that you summarized it nicely. 

    A useful Integral tool I was using lately is the difference between the "growth to goodness" and "original goodness" models, which are typically unconscious beliefs held by parents which affect the way they raise their children.

    From Endnotes to Boomeritis Ch. 1
         "Now, the grandiosity of the Boomers had a specific effect on their children, and this grandiosity came in two waves, reflected in the Xers and Ys. Again, we are talking generalities, averages, and stereotypes here, so please remember that. But wave-1 of the Boomers (and boomeritis) was the retro-Romantic phase, the original Woodstock Nation, the celebration of 'original goodness' and the noble savage, the hedonic celebration of pre-conventional and pre-rational as if they were free and liberated (whereas pre-rational consciousness is simply a slave to purple and red impulses). The result of this first phase of boomeritis attitude in parenting produced Gen X--yes, the so-called slackers: letting little Johnny 'run free' actually let little Johnny rot. (Okay, you Gen Xers out there, don't get annoyed until you hear the whole story....)

         "When the Boomers realized that this Romantic approach to reproducing their egos in their kids was not working, they went in the opposite direction from 'original goodness' (let little Johnny alone so to not repress his so-called original goodness) and switched to 'growth to goodness': run little Johnny ragged by working him morning, noon, and night: send him to pre-school, enrichment programs, around-the-clock supervised empowerment programs, music lessons and soccer games, SAT study courses, you name it. The result of this wave-2 boomeritis produced, not Slackers but Blasters, produced the Millennials."  -Ken Wilber


    Now Tim, I think that in this context you make a great point, I think that parents today are at a real disadvantage and I'll tell you all what. I have never ever been criticized or lectured more or had more pressure put on me as a parent than I have by Boomeritis Parents.  And the thing about Boomer Parenting is that it just sort of goes in the whole bag of tricks and world view of Boomeritis.  I mean several of my wifes and my friends who DO NOT HAVE children, have sat back and lectured me on how I raise my child.  How much, if any TV we let our son watch. And I mean Sesame Street is great, but the Cartoon Network (that corporate run ideological consumer driven network that only wants to sell my son sugar and junk toysSurprise [:O]Stick out tongue [:P])(Note the sarcasmWink [;)]) actually has some great kids programs!

    God I have some genuine 2nd tier anger at the green meme. I mean, seeing our kids as enlightened, as having an unfiltered and unihibited view of reality and nature is great and makes me feel good. But there is definetly so much wrong with the romantic notion that our kids are just perfect and naturally pure and that the less we involve them in the world and its influence, the less "damaged" they will become. The way some liberals seem almost allergic to popular culture and popular institutions (TV, Food, Public Schools) it has almost become cult like.

    Peace, Love, Controversy

    Benji Dog [&]
    Just like the dog

    P.S. If my kid threatened me or my wife with a machete, hatchet, chainsaw, knive, gun, ...I would crescent kick him in the face. Big Smile [:D]






    "Should it matter that my mind won't fit back in my head" -S. Davis
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  •  08-16-2006, 1:15 PM 4465 in reply to 4426

    Re: Issues

    Hi Turtle,

     

    Pardon me for using a shorthand form; it can lead to misunderstanding.

     

    If I could amend my previous response to a question posed here, the phrase “Harm would result” it would read “Net harm would result.”

     

    It happens that harm is often relative, a mixed bag. Consider something simple that we all do all the time: we breathe. As human animals, this means that we take in air, extract oxygen from it and exhale carbon dioxide one of the chief gases held to be the cause of the greenhouse effect, which may well add to global warming. To this extent, each breath you and i take does harm to the environment.

     

    As part of a conscious life my long time practice is to weigh everything so that i do not fall into the trap of sacrifice, which i define as the deliberate giving up of a higher value for a lesser one, i.e. you have ten, i have five, we exchange, you lose five.

     

    In the second of my examples, with the knife in the hands of a raging 13 year old, i could have let him stab me with untold consequences, at worst a combined action that might have made him into a  patricide, his mother a widow, and his brother a half orphan. Happily, that did not happen. In addition, he learned a painful but useful lesson; challenge all authority everywhere at your own risk.

     

    As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, in that moment of decision i was not fearful; rather my full attention was present, acutely aware of high danger to all concerned. I acted, without regret; but i was amazed at what actually happened. I am so far from being any sort of Mohammed Ali that it is laughable.

     

    Additionally, i learned too, that when and if it is necessary, i would deliver the blow! Maybe this seems cruel, but earlier this year when i underwent surgery to remove a melanoma from my face i was pleased to employ the services of a surgeon who had the courage and skill to cut ALL of the thing from my flesh and sew me back up. Here is a copy of the text i wrote and put in an extra copy of a KW book that i gave to him in appreciation for his work with a knife

     

    Dr. C,

     

             Last week the title of Ken Wilber’s book on a possible reconciliation of Science and Religion escaped me; correctly it is, The marriage of sense and soul. It happens that my little library holds his collected works which includes it; so i can easily part with this separate and original edition. Please accept it as a no strings gift, and as a token of my gratitude to you and your most excellent medical skills –which likely will prove to have been central in extending my life.

     

             No grades are available for reading his stuff; but i have found reward in his work –yea, even treasure. A decade ago i was actually bold enough to predict that in the 21st Century, every college and university worthy of the name will be influenced by his thought.

     

    Warmly,

     

    Charles

    88W18'28" 41N58'02"

     

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  •  08-16-2006, 2:04 PM 4471 in reply to 4428

    Re: Issues

    Perhaps these discussions are getting a little too personal to be helpful...

    So instead of me trying to inspire more inquiry, I'll offer the following discussion of ethical living (and the Buddhist ideal of right Speech, Right Action, Right Thought, etc.) from an Integral standpoint. It really helped me focus better this afternoon, as I was trying to figure out a more clear, and less "offensive" way of explaining my observations about raising healthy humans:

    Towards an Integral Ethics. Part 2. Practicing an Ethical Life. With Roger Walsh and Ken Wilber.

    I'm going to do a little more contemplation before I come back with any replies. But don't think I'm ignoring anyone :-) I'm reading and absorbing, and rethinking my own perspectives and tactics here...

    Thanks everyone for being so honest, by the way!

    Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
    Turtle
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  •  08-16-2006, 2:44 PM 4474 in reply to 4471

    Re: Issues

    Dear Valued Turtle,

    You provided a perfect segue for what I wanted to add...I just got back from the Integral Leader seminar and once my literature reaches me via UPS I'd like to share the insights I had into parenting from an AQAL lens.  We are also beginning planning for our first ever Integral Ed Seminar next summer, where parenting will be a major focus.

    More specifically, your comments about personal resolution of issues on this forum raises a great distinction with what katie and I are seeing as the future diffrerence between Community and IU forums.....from I Ed you will get a more disciplined, praxis/theoretical blend of info on the topic, whereas this forum will be more like an IN forum, I sppose, where allcan put their perspectives out in a vast rainbow for others to learn from.

    Does this disttinction make sense?  And how interested will folks be when I Ed launches here on-line thre end of august, and we begin to plan the more academic, AQAL-aligned invesstigation of 2nd tier parenting??

    Lynne

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  •  08-16-2006, 3:24 PM 4476 in reply to 4474

    Re: Issues

    Turtle,

    First, just know that I do think you are brilliant. I am going to respond as properly as I can when I get the chance . . . ya know, parent, busy . . . .Wink [;)] (I have been trying to write extensively about this . . .)

    I'm just trying to use this opportunty to express a wider point . . .

     . . .. a wider,    very,       important     point . . . .

    Trouble is, have too much to say . . .

    I know you are a brilliant teacher and the world is a better place to have you!

    Peace (and controversy) Tim


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  08-16-2006, 3:50 PM 4478 in reply to 4476

    Re: Issues

    Oh, and so y'all know, I just ceased the escalation of world war 7-8 year old x3 with a secret stash of lolipops and gum!Smile [:)]

     

    Aren't I terrible!

    Wink [;)]

    (Too bad that wont work in the middle east. . . . . or would it?Hmm [^o)])


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  08-16-2006, 8:16 PM 4490 in reply to 4425

    • rosecpw is not online. Last active: 04-07-2008, 1:57 PM rosecpw
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    Re: Issues

    Hi Tim,

    I've got to think a bit more about this idea of hating our parents. I think there's something to it-- but is it hating exactly? Or judging? And judging from the persepective of a child.

    I do think we devalue parenting as a culture. Which seems so sad and stupid, considering how important children are (to the future of mankind.)

    And my own shadow issue is mixed in here somehow-- let me see if I can tease it out. Yeah, here it comes: I avoid parenting in ways that remind me of my mother because I've been so critical about the way she raised me.  When I hear myself say things to my daughter that my mother said to me, I feel bad and wrong-- even if those things are true. I don't like to feel like my mother.

    On the other hand, I DO like feeling like my father (sometimes) and often chuckle hearing his words come out of my mouth. (BTW-- my mother wasn't the one who spanked me; my father was!)

    Not hate exactly, but REJECTION seems to be the word that best clarifies my feelings toward my mom's parenting. (Or maybe that is hate? Not sure...) The general attitude of "I don't want to do that-- ever!" It's a pretty complete rejection of her style.

    To neither be my mother, nor to be the opposite of her in reaction against her, but to make my own choices based on what's best for my daughter. yet I confess to a seemingly organic cringe feeling when I hear myself speak words similar to my mom's. As my daughter gets older, this happens more often. When she was little, I prided myself on being very dis-similar to my Mom.

    So if I make a parenting mistake, I have a hard time forgiving myself. Particularly if that mistake reminds me of my Mom.

    Is that what you mean by "hate?" It certainly makes my parenting experience more difficult and I work on this consciously in many ways. Including just noticing the physical body feeling of feeling like Mom and learning to tolerate that. (Yuk)

    I certainly hope my daughter does not one day feel this way about me.

    Maybe if it's not hate, it's just lack of respect that's the problem?

    I don't think parents get enough respect nowadays. From their kids, but from other adults as well. And I don't think I give myself enough respect for my efforts. That would be a good start for me right there.

    Tim, I love the idea of you as a stay at home Dad. As a woman especially, I thank you and appreciate you for that. And with so many kids, I couldn't judge your statement:

    I will spank them  -if I have to.

    I only have one child-- a girl. That allows me a great deal of latitude to deal with every little thing that comes up. Would you agree that spanking would be a last resort? It seems so by your "if I have to." The only question would be what constitutes "having to?"

    Because that answer-- of what necessitates the spanking-- could vary tremendously. What feels like "I have to" to one person, may be very different from what feels like "I have to" to another.

    Tim, I do thank you for bringing up this parent hating idea. There's something very deep to it. And it makes parenting harder.

    Much to think about, Robin

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  •  08-16-2006, 8:26 PM 4494 in reply to 4429

    • rosecpw is not online. Last active: 04-07-2008, 1:57 PM rosecpw
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    Re: Issues

    Charles,

    Impulsiveness always has a motive; it seeks gain for the separate self.

    Gain for the seperate self, yeah-- that's the dividing line all right. That's the litmus test.

    It's just not always clear in the moment, which can happen so quickly.

    BTW, I have experienced Genpo Roshi leading Big Mind and  I am a big fan of the Big Mind process.

    Robin

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