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For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

Last post 03-22-2007, 6:19 AM by Helene. 156 replies.
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  •  03-09-2007, 6:40 AM 20377 in reply to 20372

    • hmellon is not online. Last active: 03-23-2007, 11:25 AM hmellon
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    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    Tim,

    Your post cuts to my heart.  I am sorry for so deeply offending you. Everyone here has suffered and perhaps now I am learning how important this we-space is. 

    Are do-overs allowed in the forums? Sad [:(] Embarrassed [:$]

    Perhaps I should have waited until my anger about my class calmed down and I could have said the same thing without so much personal hurt being caused.  Lesson learned too late.  

    I will be pouring over the Road Ruled today and creating guidelines based off the emails I received and what I am learning from these posts and the ones from the past.  Know that I have been immersing myself in the forums trying to learn as much as possible as quickly as possible so I can get things done quickly.

    Please feel free to contact me directly to tell me what you think. I read and respond to all emails.  hmellon@integralinstitute.org

    Truly,

    Hallie

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  •  03-09-2007, 7:46 AM 20382 in reply to 20377

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    Change is the only constant.

    Arthur and I, having been through perhaps the most involvement, in depth and span, were able to see that there was really no hope in regaining whatever it was that we lost here. We have been happy to pass the torch, while others were more hopeful and want to continue to participate in the forums.

    None of us is irreplaceable in the sense that the forums will continue to exist for now, though without us. It's not the end of the wolrd. It's the end of something, but we are living through the end and the beginning in every moment. It's not that big a deal. There are plenty of people who barely know who we are and feel no loss at all in us leaving, and this is as it should be.

    There are still people here who want to be here, and there is learning going on with you, Hallie, which is obvious. Something great could come of it, or not. It's just that some of us need to move on. I've learned what I'm going to learn here, and I need to stop wallowing in distraction and get on with my practice. This is not an indictment of anyone who stays, or an injunction to make anyone leave.

    I was talking to Arthur last night, and I think we're going to put together a post or two about some of the great things that have come out of the Integral Naked forums of various incarnations and link to some of our favorite threads and posts. Stay tuned for that. It's going to be several days at least. It'll take awhile.

    Love,
    Liz

    http://pods.zaadz.com/ii
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  •  03-09-2007, 8:58 AM 20386 in reply to 20382

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    Hallie,

    Thanks for changing your original post and making my words-and this whole conversation- now seem completely out of context. That is extremely unfair. I have no desire to "leave in a huff" but I am indeed leaving.

    I do not think you are mature enough for this job. This is nothing personal, but it's also something that can not be changed, not by me not by anyone not by any amount of quick learning or instruction. Turquoise interpersonal skills are hard won over years and years of making exactly mistakes like that, and living with the interpersonal results. Even what you edited in display a leaning toward amber level leadership and interpersonal skills.

    The only things a turquoise forum needs is the same things any forum needs which is simply someone to watch out for trolls and spammer -because their function is to disrupt discourse-and obvious things like outright abuse. I do also think that an organization that has a public space like I-I should be interested that the forums do not become filled with slander. And worse, personal slander -against anyone, but certainly there should be some interest in personal slander again Ken.

    All of these things are things that all of us have fought against with nothing but our will and wits and love and care for this particular AQAL Integral designated space. It has nothing to do with catholic grade school-level lessons about "no cliques" and "no flirting" . . .

    I'm getting back to my life now. good luck.

     


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  03-09-2007, 9:19 AM 20388 in reply to 20386

    • maryw is not online. Last active: 03-19-2007, 1:06 AM maryw
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    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    All -- Here's an e-mail exchange between me and Hallie. I hadn't really intended on posting it, but it does contain one paragraph of the original text of one of Hallie's posts that has now been edited. (I wish I had copied the entire post now ...)

    Arthur already pointed this out, but after-the-fact editing of posts that have elicited responses really messes up a thread. We are not allowed to see what the conversation really is, or the processing that's going on. (Although I suppose it's partly on the individual to copy and paste exactly what they're responding to ...)

    Hallie --
     
    I'm Mary Williams, an IN member since 2004, and a sponsor since 2006. And along with Arthur and Liz, I was one of the moderators for the Integral Naked forum during 2006. I chose to step down after a while when we were continuously ignored by the forum administrators when troubling issues arose [added after posting this online: I also felt like being a co-mod was eating up too much of my time ...]
     
    I may post this on the thread, but for now am electing to just send this to you via e-mail.
     
    One of the questions you ask on your recent post in this thread was "What about my posts triggered you?"
     
    My heart sank when I came across your words:

    This thread will not become another rant on Helene.  I am really sick and tired of it and I've only been reading for a week. I imagine that a lot of people are tired of it as well. I-I will decide a course of action and you either live with it, wait until we get blocking abilities, or leave. Your opinions on this subject in particular have been heard and I am bored with it. Try talking about something else, it might let some fresh air in here. 

    You've only been reading for a week. Many people here, at least up until recently, have been reading and engaging in these forums for years. Some since 2003! Helen has been a persistently disruptive "spammer" since then, and forum participants have struggled for all these years to deal with it and do something about it (many people have actually compassionately spoken to Helen herself about it), but to no avail. Thus far, members HAVE NOT been heard on this issue. And yes, you're right -- a lot of people are tired of it. That's exactly our point--that we're tired of it and that something needs to be done about it. Seriously.

    So you asked for our input, and as soon as we begin to give it to you, you order us to talk about something else because a week of reading about Helene, spamming, and related issues makes you sick and tired? I have to admit I'm a little flabbergasted by your response there. A week of listening can't get you past the tip of the tip of the iceberg of discovering what has happened to this place and why folks are incensed and why so many have left. 

    Yet, I also understand that if I were in your shoes, I would be feeling much the same way. I think that you intend the best for these forums. I sense that you want to do something about the state of the forums in a relative timely manner, and not waste time on things that seem petty and maybe, to a certain extent, meanspirited. My suggestion would be not to rush to action too quickly -- (except when it comes to the Helen/spamming issue -- that really should be taken care of asap, in my opinion) especially when it comes to the kind of repartee that goes on within the threads. Some of us have come to know each other through these forums, built up friendships and idiosyncratic ways of interacting with each other in these threads. Several of us have actually physically met each other. Arthur and Liz are now engaged. I think it would be a great mistake for you to try to control the individual interactions in the forums in any fashion -- unless someone becomes overtly abusive, of course (and as moderators we have had to deal with abuse on these forums before).

    I can understand that the Helen/spamming/MGM complaints seem over the top to you. But the loudness of these complaints is the result of years of us being ignored by I-I administrators. Now that we sense that someone may listen to us, we're perhaps speaking with desperation, like longterm castaways on a desert island yearning for rescue.

    Give yourself more time to get to this place. Look at some of the posts we were writing 6 months ago, a year ago. Get a feel for who we are, gather more insights from people who've been participating here for awhile. Please don't rush into judgment or take action without familiarizing yourself with this "we-space" in a deeper way. Observe some of our past discussions with an open newcomer's heart, and join us in some new ones.

    Please: take time to get to know us. And let us get to know you.

    Best,

    Mary

    Hi Mary,
     
    Thank you for you very considerate email. I appreciate your understanding my point of view. I am struggling with what to do with her in particular and I did come off (as I'm reading it the next morning) as very harsh.  I also recognize that a lot of people also struggled with themselves about her as well.
    I realize that if I am allowed to make changes in the forums, it will spark some heat.  That's kind of what I want.  I want people to come back to these forums and some people will probably leave, as has sadly already happened. I am sorry for that. It was not my intent.
     
    Abuse in the forums is a matter of perception I made my perceptions known and am now living with the consequences.
     
    I am reading as much as I can as fast as I can.  I am working to create guidelines based off the what I am reading about from these emails and from past posts.  I am reading posts from the beginning of this forum, especially the one pertaining to change.  You are right about what I think about the Helen issue and now I understand it's because of neglect. 
     
    While my thoughts about how people respond to others haven't changed from last night, I realize that I should have waited until the light of day.
     
    I am sorry for offending this space and imposing myself as authoritarian when I haven't been around the block long enough. Again, I very much appreciate your email's understanding of seeing both sides.
     
    Truly,
    Hallie

    Let the beauty we love be what we do.
    There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground.

    ~Rumi
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  •  03-09-2007, 9:35 AM 20389 in reply to 20388

    • hmellon is not online. Last active: 03-23-2007, 11:25 AM hmellon
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    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    Ok,

    Totally correct and totally childish of me.  I've put it back.  I'm sorry that I once again resorted to my lower levels. 

    Hallie

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  •  03-09-2007, 11:06 AM 20393 in reply to 20389

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    Attachment: liz_and_arthur.jpg
    This message is from Arthur.

    Namaste,
    Liz

    --------------

    I've done a lot of learning and growth here, and made a lot of great friendships - I feel I have an “integral sangha” now. It's been a very transformative few years, and I feel that, in many ways, this journey is just beginning for me.

    My input here in the last while has been offered in the spirit of someone who had, in the past, been very involved in the forums, giving advice to those who are now - thanks to me finally getting through to Ken about these issues - going to try to take the forums in a new and healthier direction. I felt really “slapped down” by Hallie's posting last night, and it did not fill me with confindence for the future of the forum. Your posts today, Hallie, imply that you realize you have a learning curve ahead of you, and I wish you the best of luck with that. It is obvious that your intentions are good, and that you care deeply.

    Perhaps it would be best for all involved if I move on; I know it would be best for me personally at this point. I've found a new home in IIzaadz, and will continue to serve the integral vision in my own way. Participating on the forums has taken up an enormous amount of time over the years, and I need to refocus my energies. I feel a need to increase focus on my ILP, and also to find a means of livelihood which more fully engages my heart, mind and soul.

    So last night I did what I had considered doing many times in the last year - I cancelled my membership to I-I. I will continue to have access to the content via Liz's Tamgoddess account (or, in the future, possibly via a new shared account we have speculated about creating, in the interest of making a clean break). Although I was upset, I did not want to take that action with anger or sadness if possible; so I sat there, with my cursor hovering over “CANCEL,” breathing into it, holding the moment. Intense feelings of love and gratitude filled me - for this strange placeless place, for all those who shared and helped create it, for Ken and all his great work, for friends and lovers who have come into my life through these forums, and for all the love, growth and transformations I have experienced participating here.

    And then I hit “CANCEL.” It is done. I am moving on. There will be a summary post at some point soon from Liz and me, as she mentioned.

    with love and gratitude,
    arthur

    http://pods.zaadz.com/ii
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  •  03-09-2007, 2:40 PM 20399 in reply to 19812

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    All:

    As interim CEO of Integral Institute I do not have the luxury of participating in the forums (they'll be better for it!).  But, I have discussed with Hallie her mistake of acting as a participant and not as a moderator.  This will not be an easy job for her, or anyone, and I trust in the process of learning that will occur, especially because it does so in a container of people as extraordinary as our community.  I'm confident that the "we" space is capable of handling the various levels of meaning-making that occur within that container, even when the meaning-making is totally clumsy.  (As my wife would attest, I'm an expert in that type myself.)

    Which brings me to the more interesting announcements.  Since Monday when I started to consider how to get the forums more engaged in II's other activities, we've done two things:

    1. For II Members, there is a new, beautiful forum laid out for every article in the just released AQAL Journal, where over 3,000 pages of peer-reviewed material on every Integral topic is now directly linked from the downloadable Journal to a discussion thread for every paper.  It's really something, and I'm looking forward to the conversations that occur there.  The Journal will be released to all subscribers soon, but Members were offered access at 11AM today.

    2. Ken and I have planned to do a full week of "The Forums Laid Bare," as Integral Naked will focus all of its content for a coming week on the Forum community itself.  I have asked him to do a dialogue on the (in)famous Helene problem/opportunity and how to generate Integral ethics at Turquoise, as well as other topics.  This should occur within the next month and will probably be released on IN in March or April.  If you have suggestions or would like to have a chance to participate, drop Hallie a line at hmellon@integralinstitute.org. 

    You have been heard.  All of II will be watching (and listening to) you now.

    Loving regards,

    Robb
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  •  03-09-2007, 3:37 PM 20403 in reply to 20399

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    I think these are fabulous developments and would have been entirely appropriate six months ago.  I'm very excited to see them happening, and I'm very disappointed that it is only happening now.  I hope, and hopefully not naively, that those of you at II in official or semi-official capacities have a sense of the loss that your lack of oversight and partnership has caused.  This has been a break in trust for many people, both those who are still here and those who have left.  It will take consistent and constant integrity on your part to heal that breach, the wound to the we-space.  If this is the real deal and those of you responsible for the forums really do get what has been said to you, and it appears you are starting to, then I have high hopes.  But that integrity will take communication and transparency.  And it will take respect on your part for the contribution that is being made here.  That was the real breach, as I see it.  Those who were deeply invested and deeply committed to the vision felt shut out, ignored, cast off, and disrespected.  I know, and we know, that those of you working at II have been very busy with things we aren't even aware of.  For that we thank you.  Please make us aware.  Please partner with us.  And tell it to us straight.  If something is beyond your capacities currently, by all means, do not hide that.  Tell us.  We've organized our own community.  We want you to be a part of it.  We want to be a part of yours. Let's play.

    Chris


    One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time. --Andre Gide

    Hope is as hollow as fear. --Lao-tzu
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  •  03-10-2007, 4:51 AM 20427 in reply to 20399

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    Sometimes we look at the actions of others and find it difficult to understand what motivates them. But we are all doing the best we can with the information we currently have. We have all been taught how to see the world from the examples of those around us and by our experiences. Keeping this in mind, we can accept the choices made by others while seeking ways to increase the world's level of consciousness as a whole.

    Our different levels of consciousness are like the developmental stages of children, whose understanding varies according to their age and experience. For example, the behavior of a two-year-old who doesn't want to share can be understood as a phase of his social education, whereas a 16-year-old who behaves in the same manner would be thought to be acting childish. I have a one-year-old granddaughter and I am fascinated with her development at this stage. I also drive a school bus with older children. All of them are fun to be around, and each of them has a state, stage of development process they are going through. I'd rather watch the children than the adults at II, who want to censure people like Helene. She is expressing her spiritual nature, and I find her fascinating at times. I have never thought well about people who take pleasure in censuring. Wonder if we censured books in our public libraries, then a lot of people would be angry. Censuring is a Nazi tactic and a right-wing Christian practice. Do we want to be like that? I hope II doesn't stoop to that level. It is important to remember that we are each on our own unique path. We may have chosen certain lessons or made an agreement to play certain roles in the unfolding of the world's understanding before we incarnated in this lifetime. So our job is not to judge others but to shift the balance of understanding in the world by increasing our own.

    Every thought we have and action we take becomes part of the collective energy of the planet. When we use our energy to bring light into the world, it combines with the light brought by others to dispel the darkness. Though we live in a world of duality, which helps us to experience the material plane, we don't need to experience extremes to understand them. We can share our experiences and understanding with others not from a place of condescension but of connection. When the entire family of humanity understands that each of our thoughts, choices, and actions affect us all, we will share an incredible level of consciousness-one that puts our oneness above all else and helps us evolve into higher expressions of our spiritual selves. Remember the next time you witness an action of another that they are of the same earth as you but simply on a different conscious level at this point in their life. Find compassion, bless them, and move along your day in grace.
    I came to II because I felt a level of spiritual consciousness existed. Believe it or not, this is the only forum I have ever posted and will be my last.

    Thanks for AQAL Journals I am downloading and will read when I have the opportunity.


    JC
    33° 13' N 87° 37' W
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  •  03-10-2007, 10:18 AM 20437 in reply to 20427

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    JW, I'm appreciating your post at this place in the thread this morning - particularly, there is something in these sentences below that resonate with me. I don't know where I am personally in regard to these possibilities but there is something about the manner that I'm hearing it after the way this thread has gone that touches me. Ambo

    Wishing you the best in your endeavors here, Hallie. We All have such blind spots - you are not alone, that's for sure.

    Sometimes we look at the actions of others and find it difficult to understand what motivates them. But we are all doing the best we can with the information we currently have. We have all been taught how to see the world from the examples of those around us and by our experiences. Keeping this in mind, we can accept the choices made by others while seeking ways to increase the world's level of consciousness as a whole.

    Though we live in a world of duality, which helps us to experience the material plane, we don't need to experience extremes to understand them. We can share our experiences and understanding with others not from a place of condescension but of connection. When the entire family of humanity understands that each of our thoughts, choices, and actions affect us all, we will share an incredible level of consciousness-one that puts our oneness above all else and helps us evolve into higher expressions of our spiritual selves. Remember the next time you witness an action of another that they are of the same earth as you but simply on a different conscious level at this point in their life.


    Ambo Suno
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  •  03-10-2007, 2:34 PM 20444 in reply to 20437

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    ,Dear Friends:   I just want to welcome you Halli and let you know that you have my support.  I took notes while this was going on and I also tried to email you and messed that up and it came back.  I really feel so sorry that you had to begin this way and I am confused as to why you could not relate to us as a participator as this went down.  We were hardly at stage 2.  I hope that you are always that forthcoming

    I don't know what stage two is and I do know that those who left also left good ideas and examples.  I have not read all the past notes.  I had a teacher who was a student of Stanley Kelleman who I also consider a teacher.  WE learned about

    Beginning and Endings.  The question was How do you handle Beginnings and Endings with the important word being - "HOW.   This is one of those little treasures

    that we can all look at now.  Namaste  to all.  Pattye

    "Be lamps unto yourselves; be your own confidence. Hold to the truth within yourselves..."    Buddha

    "You are the light of the world"   Jesus

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  •  03-11-2007, 12:14 PM 20480 in reply to 20444

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    I wonder if hmellon and powers that be  are like  hoping  those who overstayed their welkome got the hint already and  will,  like,  just walk off  into the sunset, or something? so  she won't have to personally waste her time dealing with me?  
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  •  03-11-2007, 1:18 PM 20485 in reply to 20480

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    Attachment: 2ndtiersmile.jpg
    Arthur/adastra speaking...

    Here's something I posted yesterday on IIzaadz which I'd like to share with all you beautiful Multiplexians:

    ~~~~~~~~~

    Liz was on her first conference call with Ken today, and I got to listen in (and participate a little bit).  During the call Ken summarized what I was telling him in the previous call, demonstrating that he did, in fact, hear and get what we have been telling him; and in the course of his summary, much to my delight he mentioned Nomali as being the only one who got what the forums were about.  It felt very validating, and I felt happy to have my friend Nomali's vital role acknowleged in that way.  It is unfortunate that I-I and Nomali have had a parting of the ways, but in the process the information flow between I-I and the forums has increased, and some of the group shadow has been dragged screaming and whimpering into the light.  At this moment I feel cautiously - very cautiously - optimistic.  And I have faith that this is unfolding as it must, and hope that it will turn out very well for both Nomali and I-I in the long run.

    I also feel that although Integral Naked and IIzaadz are going their separate ways at this time, we are still united under a common cause. and we still, deep down, feel the beat of the same integral heart.  It seems that most of the old-timers who are still affiliated with I-I have largely shifted their time and attention to IIzaadz; and zaadz has brought many fresh and wonderful voices to this wespace.  Meanwhile the Multiplex forums have a chance for a new beginning.  I truly believe that all involved in either forum, or in I-I, or who have left I-I, are acting in good faith, with heartfelt conviction that something important is going on here, and with a fervent desire to help humanity and the kosmos take the next step.  Let us each do what we can to carry the integral vision forward.

    We are siblings and will sometimes fight as such, but we're all part of the same family when all is said and done - and that family reaches out to the planet and the universe (“one song”) as a whole.

    with love,
    arthur

    ~~~~~~~~~

    I'd also like to share the introductory blurb that is now being sent out to all IIzaadz members when they join up:

    ~~~~~~~~~

    Welcome to IIzaadz, a pod/forum founded on the work of Ken Wilber and other integral theorists. Our aim is to provide a space for broad discussion of second tier living, loving and learning. Please read our guiding principles – the Road Rules for Transformation – carefully, as well as some of the introductory material on the What Is Integral? and Integral Institute (I-I) 101 boards – we particularly recommend

    What Is Altitude?
    Waves, Streams, States and Self
    Integral Theory and Practice
    Ego Development: 9 Levels of Increasing Embrace by Suzanne Cook-Greuter

    We'd love to know who you are, and what brings you to our integral space, so please Introduce Yourself to our community.

    Many of us have memberships in Integral Naked and/or Integral Spiritual Center, so that we can enjoy the incredible array of audio and video materials made available at low monthly cost by Integral Institute. A variety of free materials are linked to on our Integral Multimedia board; particularly note Integral Naked Videos On YouTube and Integral Spiritual Center: Free Materials.

    If you have any questions or concerns about the pod, please send a Private Message to one of the moderators; currently we are pelle , MaryW, and adastra. We endeavor to keep this busy pod running as smoothly as possible, and invite any comments or questions on the Feedback and Suggestions board.
     

    Have fun, and thank you for joining us!

    -Turquoise Mod Squad


    ~~~~~~~~~


    Love to you all - whatever colors of the rainbow shine through you,

    arthur



    http://pods.zaadz.com/ii
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  •  03-11-2007, 1:42 PM 20487 in reply to 20485

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    One Heart, "one song"

    Indeed. And agreed . . .Smile [:)]

     

    Tim M e l o d y


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  03-12-2007, 6:19 AM 20502 in reply to 20487

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    Hi-iya Hallie,

    Hope you don't mind I will respond to your oh-so-nice e-mail here.

    You say I have courage...You ain't no shrinking violet yourself grrrl! Jumping with both feet with an open - 4 - learning attitude into this gab-forum's couldron  is waaay koolCool [H]

    Takes a good dose of hutzpa , a dash of humility and a pinch of zest to keep open the mind - channel 4 fresh ideas to flow-in. Ideas that support wholeness over seperation. Us-versus-them thinking is soo yestearday when we know I Am fills the whole Kosmos . . . when we know each and every thought we have , as well as every object seen is a vibration of the universe.

    As for what I do like about the forums? ... I get to play and stuffAngel [A]

    Is there anything I want to suggest? ... not really, I am comfortable with uncertainty.

    Helen

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