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What is Post-postmodernism???

Last post 10-01-2006, 9:35 AM by Fangsz. 11 replies.
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  •  09-20-2006, 10:39 PM 8663

    • ats is not online. Last active: 08-05-2007, 1:07 AM ats
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    What is Post-postmodernism???

    I've seen the term post-postmodern used a few times here and there.  I know what modernity is.  I know what postmodern thought is.  I did a quick Yahoo! search on post-postmodern, and nothing turned up that shed light on what it is.

    It's probably something right under my nose that I know well, but haven't learned the label of post-postmodern yet.  Soooooooo, can any one tell me what it is?


    myspace.com/zentaimusic
  •  09-20-2006, 11:17 PM 8669 in reply to 8663

    Re: What is Post-postmodernism???

    Post-postmodernism is the rather inelegant and (hopefully) tentative name for whatever comes after post-modernism.  The relationship between post-postmodernism and postmodernism is analogous to that between postmodernism and modernism: it builds on, reacts to, and is critical of what it perceives to be deficiencies in what preceded it.

    If that sounds like a vague answer, it's because post-postmodernism is still a rather vague phenomenon (like postmodernism itself, actually).


    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
  •  09-21-2006, 12:09 AM 8673 in reply to 8669

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    Re: What is Post-postmodernism???

    So, I would gather here at IN it probably means AQAL and the WC Lattice.  I suppose it would be creating heiarchy out of the groundless world of arbitrariness of the postmodern world.  Or, -hmmm... starting to sound like 2nd tier.

    myspace.com/zentaimusic
  •  09-21-2006, 3:46 AM 8679 in reply to 8673

    Re: What is Post-postmodernism???

    Yes, the whole Integral thing could legitimately be called post-postmodern.  But postmodernism is such a nebulously defined concept itself, it's hard to know how it could really end, or how anyone would know if it did.
    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
  •  09-23-2006, 1:02 PM 9056 in reply to 8679

    Re: What is Post-postmodernism???

    PrickliestPear:
    Yes, the whole Integral thing could legitimately be called post-postmodern.  But postmodernism is such a nebulously defined concept itself, it's hard to know how it could really end, or how anyone would know if it did.

    Profoundly important though, dry as it sounds.

    Integral IS post-post-modern, but not because it seeks to deny post-modernism.  It seeks to transcend and include it and so move forward rather than regress.

    We could sum up the core insight of post-modernism (totally inadequately, but for the sake of argument) as: all meaning is relative.   Or, even more briefly: 'it depends....'

    There are no grand narratives any more, and any attempts at such totalising perspectives are revealed as mere power-play, to be ruthlessly deconstructed.

    Integral doesn't deny this view, in fact it honours it.  Hence Wilber's attack on 'the myth of the given'.  There are no simple occasions.  Everything is contextual.

    What Integral does do is to point out that this position contradicts itself by making a totalising assertion that there can be no totalising assertions.....Smile [:)]

    Its the perspective of the Green vMeme.  How to move forward from this perspective?  By seeing that relativity does not abolish values.  There are no longer any simple, given values, but there are relative values, there is still 'relatively better' and there is still 'relatively worse'.  From a Green meme, post-modernist perspective, this is merely a return to totalising assertions, only this time introducing terms like 'Spirit' as the final arbiter rather than the old-fashioned 'God'.   Is post-post-modernism tenable?

    It depends....

    Smile [:)]

      

     


    'This is all the time you'll ever have'.
    ~ Dr Hannibal Lecter
  •  09-23-2006, 3:06 PM 9075 in reply to 8663

    Re: What is Post-postmodernism???

    I think you can see a lot of evidence of the post-postmodern emerging in pop-culture right now, whether that be in movies such as Crash or V for Vendetta, MySpace, U-Tube or what have you.

    Marketers themselves are saying things like:
    "The age of cynicism is on its last legs."
    "What we are seeing, thanks in no small part to an exceptionally optimistic Gen Y, is a cultural preference towards more positive leaders, athletes, books, movies, experiences and so forth."

    The post-postmodern represents the drive towards a non-naive form of pluralism.  It is an integral pluralism rather than a fragmented one.  As complete as possible a multiplicity of perspectives is still encouraged, but within a context where connections between those perspectives are sought and whereby the relationships (truths?) expressed in these connections are made intersubjectively available.

    I think the post-postmodern way of thinking is concerned, not so much with deconstructing texts / identities / perspectives but with discovering the relationships between them.  The possibility of finding these relationships requires transcendence - hence the move beyond postmodernism.  But hopefully this move does not result in a category error.  That is to say, hopefully the relationships between perspectives are seen for what they are: relationships rather than independent sources of meaning themselves.  To see them as the latter might be to forget why postmodern thought was necessary in the first place.

    This sounds a bit wonky having written it.  Hmmmmm...

    ssenmai
  •  09-24-2006, 3:25 AM 9128 in reply to 9075

    Re: What is Post-postmodernism???

    Doesn't sound wonky to me, Justin - you put it very well.  I'd just add that another contribution of post-modernism which mustn't be lost is the idea of co-creation - the truth isn't 'out there' to be 'found'.  Although it seems nihilistic to the religious traditions, this insight actually fits well with non-dualistic spirituality which is the real 'future' of religion...

    Smile [:)]


    'This is all the time you'll ever have'.
    ~ Dr Hannibal Lecter
  •  09-24-2006, 9:57 PM 9214 in reply to 8663

    Re: What is Post-postmodernism???

    is the past present and future of...

    NOTHING.
  •  09-29-2006, 11:39 PM 9894 in reply to 9214

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    Re: What is Post-postmodernism???

    I've also seen it used in a cynical way to describe the aftermath of a flatland postmodern view.  Guess we better coin the term before it's use falls to the wayside. heh.


    myspace.com/zentaimusic
  •  10-01-2006, 8:02 AM 9954 in reply to 9128

    Re: What is Post-postmodernism???

    Davidd:

    Doesn't sound wonky to me, Justin - you put it very well.  I'd just add that another contribution of post-modernism which mustn't be lost is the idea of co-creation - the truth isn't 'out there' to be 'found'.  Although it seems nihilistic to the religious traditions, this insight actually fits well with non-dualistic spirituality which is the real 'future' of religion...

    Smile [:)]

    Good point.  Truth is co-created by us through the constant drive of evolution, which is what we can see pretty clearly in the aftermath of post-modernism.  I recently read something on wikipedia about a trend called neo-existentialism that came out of post-modernism.  It said the difference between existentialism and neo-existentialism is that existentialists question the meaning of their own existence, but find hope in the greater collective, but neo-existentialism, based on post-modern ideas, questions the reality of the collective, since it knows that reality to be constructed, and thus loses that hope that existentialism holds on to.  But to a certain degree, it finds new hope, and that hope resides in post-post-modernism.  The novel Fight Club, which I beleive is the best peice of post-modern literature ever written, probably provides the best example of this neo-existentialism, it really does show a loss of all hope in humanity throughout most of the novel, but at the end (and I won't give anything away), unlike the movie, the main character has a rather profound experience that brings the post-modern, neo-existential philosophy into question.  And post-post-modernism is what we do in the aftermath of that complete loss of hope.  Since "the greater good" as we thought of it before is constructed by us, and thus not infallible, where do we find hope?

    You are right in saying that all truth is constructed.  It is constructed through the evolutionary drive Ken calls Eros.  But, while we can't ignore the wisdom of post-modernism, we also can't ignore the wisdom of the great spiritual traditions.  There is something "out there" to be found, in a sense.  Not only does Eros push us upward from within, there's something coming down to us that pulls us upward, as well.  It provides us with a certain sense of safetey, and at the same time, complete abandon.  Ken calls it Agape. Caroline Myss calls it grace.  But whatever it is we can't ignore it, especially when we speak of the new way of living and thinking that arises with post-post-modernism.

    I really like this thread.  I don't think the issue of a post-post-modern age has been discussed nearly enough, and you all have some very interesting things to say on the subject.

  •  10-01-2006, 9:07 AM 9959 in reply to 9954

    Re: What is Post-postmodernism???

    Fangsz:
    There is something "out there" to be found, in a sense.  Not only does Eros push us upward from within, there's something coming down to us that pulls us upward, as well.  It provides us with a certain sense of safetey, and at the same time, complete abandon.  Ken calls it Agape. Caroline Myss calls it grace.  But whatever it is we can't ignore it, especially when we speak of the new way of living and thinking that arises with post-post-modernism.

    Good post, Fangsz

    To post-modernist ears, ideas such as Agape and Grace are merely totalising 'givens' trying to make a come-back, aren't they... How can such insights be communicated without sounding like retro garbage?    That's the challenge for movements like Integral which seek to transcend post-modernism.  Wilber himself is very insistent that the 'myth of the given' must be laid to rest once and for all.

    As far as the post-modernists are concerned, they have shown that there is nothing 'out there' which we haven't co-contructed.  How could they be persuaded that that there is 'something coming down to us that pulls us upward'?   Existentialism is easier:  pre-dating post-modernism, the existentialists did at least accept that there IS an individual self, albeit one which is alone in a meaningless universe.  With post-modernism, the notion of any such final 'identity' which can be distinguished from context and which could be 'pulled' anywhere is undermined.    And of course, its no good just mocking and attacking post-modernism as flatland:  there is no way to integral or post-post modernism of any kind without accepting those valid perspectives which the post-modernists disclosed, partial though their insights - like all insights - are.....

    btw, I haven't read Fight Club the book - I'll follow your recommendation, Fangsz...

    Smile [:)]

     


    'This is all the time you'll ever have'.
    ~ Dr Hannibal Lecter
  •  10-01-2006, 9:35 AM 9960 in reply to 9959

    Re: What is Post-postmodernism???

    Davidd:

    Good post, Fangsz

    To post-modernist ears, ideas such as Agape and Grace are merely totalising 'givens' trying to make a come-back, aren't they... How can such insights be communicated without sounding like retro garbage?    That's the challenge for movements like Integral which seek to transcend post-modernism.  Wilber himself is very insistent that the 'myth of the given' must be laid to rest once and for all.

    As far as the post-modernists are concerned, they have shown that there is nothing 'out there' which we haven't co-contructed.  How could they be persuaded that that there is 'something coming down to us that pulls us upward'?   Existentialism is easier:  pre-dating post-modernism, the existentialists did at least accept that there IS an individual self, albeit one which is alone in a meaningless universe.  With post-modernism, the notion of any such final 'identity' which can be distinguished from context and which could be 'pulled' anywhere is undermined.    And of course, its no good just mocking and attacking post-modernism as flatland:  there is no way to integral or post-post modernism of any kind without accepting those valid perspectives which the post-modernists disclosed, partial though their insights - like all insights - are.....

    btw, I haven't read Fight Club the book - I'll follow your recommendation, Fangsz...

    Smile [:)]

     

    So I guess one of the biggest challenges for the post-post-modernism is to present the notion of Agape to a post-modern world in a way that post-modernists don't feel like it's something they've already deconstructed, or should deconstruct.  In essence, we need to bring hope to post-modern hopelessness, which is quite a massive undertaking to attempt, but nonetheless an incredibly important one.  It'll require the integral use of art, science, and institution, combined with a deep sense of spirituality to make that evolution as a society, but it's not out of reach. 

    By the way, by nothing that the cinema adaptation of the novel Fight Club has a different ending, I don't mean to say it's a bad film.  They're both worth checking out, especially in relation to the idea of providing a transition from post-modernism to post-post-modernism.

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