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300 Millionth United Statian

Last post 10-23-2006, 10:39 AM by rkrkrk. 52 replies.
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  •  10-13-2006, 10:28 AM 11037

    300 Millionth United Statian

    According to one calculation the 300 millionth United Statian will arrive at 6:46 a.m. next Tuesday, 10/17/06..... about 40 years after we hit 200 million (1967) and 90 years after we hit 100 million (1915).  It is mindblowing to me that when my great-great-great grandfather (who was an immigrant born in England) had his first son here in Virgina in 1800, the population of the U.S. was only 5.2 million (.88 million in VA).........

    Alexis de Tocqueville wrote about the U.S. about this time (1830) after widely exploring it in his "Democracy in America" identifying certain key American traits:  fierce patriotism, religious ferver and rampant materialism (Sauelson, 10/4/2006).  Samuelson argues that these powerful and resiliant American values will change new hispanic and other current-day immigrants more than they will change our country........

    Distilled to their essence, the fierce patriotism I see as basically red-meme individual power values, religiosity fervor as blue meme -enforced conformity and rampant materialism as orange meme meritocracy.........The question I have (given all the current controversy over new immigrants.....e.g., Pat Buchanan ironically said, "Look the north American Indians had a lax immigration policy and look what happened to them!") is, can we not improve on our American value system to find a real solution to the "problem?"

    R.K.


    "No problem can be solved at the level of consciousness that created it in the first place!"

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  •  10-14-2006, 10:54 AM 11106 in reply to 11037

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Attachment: P7270438_merge.jpg
    M E R G E
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  •  10-16-2006, 10:15 AM 11295 in reply to 11037

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    One has to wonder how the world might be different today had we developed and implemented both a national population policy for the U.S. and an international one for the world............such proposals (with clearly defined maximum population goals) have been introduced in the U.S. congress every year since the late 1960's/early 1970's (by Zero Population Growth [now called The Population Connection] ) and have gone nowhere............

    Population pressures and resulting conflicts over increasingly-scarce resources are still clearly a root cause of most of the wars, civil strife and terrorism we see in the world today.........yet people seem to be backing away even farther from addressing it (due to myths about "birth dearths" and an actual slowing of the global population growth rate)..........

    The thinking back in the early days (that still applies today) was/is that unless we are willing to set targets ourselves in the U.S., how can we ask any other less-developed country to do the same?

    R.K.


    "No problem can be solved at the level of consciousness that created it in the first place!"

    887 Posts on Forum #1; 222 Posts on Forum #2......Member Since 8/8/2003
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  •  10-16-2006, 10:47 AM 11297 in reply to 11295

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    I just want to know who sired the 300 millionth child - Timelody or Vortex?  Stick out tongue [:P]Hmm [^o)]

    It would appear to be more logical to voluntarily limit the population of our species before biospheric karma does the job for us, but it seems our overall level of consciousness is nowhere near the point where we're capable of doing that on a species scale.

    Who knows?  Maybe nanotech will save us.  Stay tuned.

    arthur


    I am seeking meaningful work.

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  •  10-16-2006, 11:18 AM 11306 in reply to 11297

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    I agree we have an overpopulation problem that is growing.  But something else to consider is that without recent immigrants and their children the U.S. population would actually be shrinking.  This is a trend throughout the developed world,  where countries like Japan and Germany are looking at a population collapse.  The birthrate in the U.S. among those who have been here several generations is below replacement.

    One of the dangers facing us as the rest of the world modernizes is a global population crash - though this is admitatly at least 50 years off,   if not twice that.  This may seem more a blessing than a curse,  but if the trend continues in the coming centuries the human population will increasingly dwindle.  It seems that one of the things that happens as you ascend the spiral of development is that the idea of having children becomes less appealing - pretty much once you hit orange and higher.  Maby at yellow this changes - I don't know of any statistics of birth rates to yellow parents.  But the evidence is clear:  Once you hit orange children are seen as much more of a burden - maby with green it is less so.  Does anyone have any information on comparative birthrates among Orange and Green? 

    Maby with technological advances eliminating the need for much human labor,  it will become much more practical for both parents to stay home and raise the kids.  Reproducing would be much less of a sacrifice then.  Some futurists have envisioned a world in which work is optional,  in which everyone gets a check from the gov for basic needs - which are met largely by machines (food,  clothing,  shelter).  Just looking at the increases in productivity over the past few centuries - if that trend continues,  the above scenario is possible.  So in this kind of situation,  would birthrates continue to drop,  stabalise,  or begin to rise again?

    Mike
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  •  10-16-2006, 11:21 AM 11307 in reply to 11297

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    adastra:

    I just want to know who sired the 300 millionth child - Timelody or Vortex?  Stick out tongue [:P]Hmm [^o)]




    Ooohhhh. Is there a prize or something? Wink [;)]
    In a black and white picture....there's a lot of grey junk
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  •  10-16-2006, 11:39 AM 11310 in reply to 11295

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Well, hmm, let's wonder.

    What would the world be like if RK was never allowed to be born? Better, huh? For RK's portion of "depletion of natural resources" which are so much more valuable (FOR ME!!!!), how's about rather than setting our sites to the future, let's look right at the present. If we're going to propose "controls" on such things, why the fuck not start now? Shame on your parents for giving birth to you and spoiling the world, huh. Bastards. Why count the newest baby as the root of the problem?  Why not go back in time and consider that 300 millionth to be you? Don't you and your parents know there's only so much space to go around to fill with my ego?

    I'm quite sorry but I find the socialistically based morality and HIGHLY uncreative premises to be more than a little offensive. From an Interal stadnpoint, you seem to be valuing the LR over everything else, including human life.

    The world population has exploded becasue of the increase in life-expectancy-something you are currently enjoying. The increase in life-expectancy is due to the decrease in infant mortality. Goddamn modernity, helping those babies (and even their mothers) to stay alive.

    Please allow for the consideration of your own interior quadrant and those of everyone else . . .

    Your priorities are seriously screwed up if you can't take that Natural Rescoure into account as well.





    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  10-16-2006, 12:59 PM 11320 in reply to 11310

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Hi Tim

    I can think of arguments in favor of highly evolved individuals having lots of children - arguments on how this might benefit the collective as well as furthering the needs of the individuals involved.

    It would, I suggest, be interesting to raise the question of how collective needs may interact with individual needs in the reproductive realm; perhaps an integral framework could fruitfully (no pun intended) address the various factors involved.

    In any case, I appear to have hit a nerve with my tongue-in-cheek jibe.  Hmm [^o)]

    arthur


    I am seeking meaningful work.

    bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

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  •  10-16-2006, 2:22 PM 11331 in reply to 11320

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    I have to say, Vortex's response was more amusing, anyway...I'd suggest cultivating a sense of humor about this, Tim, as you're only going to be getting more stares and judgements from people, not less, as your family grows. Perhaps thinking of some fun, pithy statements...?

    I've wrestled with this in my mind many times over the years. My usual opinion, after arguing with myself (I can be really annoying) is that if we have policies and cultural mores in place that make it child-neutral, then only those who really love and want children will have them. And that's who we want rearing them.

    Liz
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  •  10-16-2006, 3:02 PM 11339 in reply to 11320

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Arthur the nerve you hit was by direct implication bringing my children into a discussion that involves the imposition of "population limits."

    Okay, let's say 300 mil. was the currect US limit-in favor a deeply unprioritized valuing of the prescious holy LR quatrant as being more valuable than sentinet life. Great, limits up, my wife must have an abortion. Every pregnancy in progress now must be terminatied for we have reached the limit.Until someone dies, then we can allow another baby. RK suggest this would stop wars? No one thinks the thought would arise that perhaps it's better to start terminating old people in favor of the young? Hows about we just start killing off the useless and unproductive people instead? We could on with various ideas.

    If you absolutize the LR . . . I shouldn't even have to argue this any more.

    Can't think of any arguments in favor of "highly evolved beings" having lot's of children? Well, just go take that one to your meditation cushion with you.

    Again, I will say, if some should not have the right to be alive, why shouldn't the first be you Arthur? What makes you more valuable than my unborn baby?

     

    Perhaps as one last jab to attempt to get you to open up your ability for broader views and deeper compassion (for all sentient beings, not just the first 300 mil or whatever limit which obviously includes you) . . . .

     . . .no, forget it.


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  10-16-2006, 3:32 PM 11340 in reply to 11339

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Tim, consider the possibility that you may be overreacting.

    What I actually said was I CAN imagine arguments for more evolved people having lots of children; perhaps you'd like to make one of them instead of yelling at me?

    I can also imagine the biosphere exceeding a breaking point beyond which billions of precious miracles - or even the whole species - die horribly and young (as is happening a lot already in some parts of the world).

    You appear be making an argument of the form, "I have the right to reproduce as much as possible, and fuck you for even bringing up other considerations."

    Seriously, Tim, relax, will ya?  Put down that DNA gun and come out slowly with your hands up...

    this just in...according to the International Programs Center, U.S. Bureau of the Census, the total population of the World, projected to 10/16/06 at 22:13 GMT (EDT+5) is

    6,550,844,982
     
    I also found this really nifty continuously updated population counter.
     
    I wonder what the breaking point is?  10 billion?  50 billion?  4 billion?  Stay tuned.
     
    arthur

    I am seeking meaningful work.

    bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

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  •  10-16-2006, 3:49 PM 11344 in reply to 11340

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    The way I figure it, Tim.......our familys' had a couple more kids to make up for those that chose to have none. Smile [:)] See....it all works out.




    In a black and white picture....there's a lot of grey junk
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  •  10-16-2006, 4:06 PM 11349 in reply to 11340

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Okay, you're right, I am overreacting-especially if I put a 't where one was not.

     

    I don't think we can put forth these arguments when only looking at human beings through the lens of just so many "its."

    I would also like to submit a possible overreaction to these statistics and imaginaings of a breaking point. I don't think we are anywhere near one; at least just in terms of population.

    Mentality and consciousness? Outdated modes and standards? Ignorance, and lack of love and creativity?

    Sure.

    But what other way is there to change that for the future than for the most conscious to attempt to pass such on to future generations?

     

     


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  10-16-2006, 4:11 PM 11350 in reply to 11344

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Vortex:
    The way I figure it, Tim.......our familys' had a couple more kids to make up for those that chose to have none. Smile [:)] See....it all works out.

    As a matter of fact, that's just what I have thought from the beginning. I don't happen to know anyone else having a big family, if a family at all.

    Nature has it's way . . . .

    And if someone doesn't step up to the plate and start having children (and consider their rearing at least as important as their own, if not more), who are we leaving the consciousness of future generations to?


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  10-16-2006, 4:55 PM 11355 in reply to 11350

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    timelody:
    And if someone doesn't step up to the plate and start having children...


    You do it standing up on a plate!?  Indifferent [:|]

    r.thor

    I am seeking meaningful work.

    bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

    I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

    "You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn
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