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300 Millionth United Statian

Last post 10-23-2006, 10:39 AM by rkrkrk. 52 replies.
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  •  10-16-2006, 5:00 PM 11356 in reply to 11350

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    timelody:

    And if someone doesn't step up to the plate and start having children (and consider their rearing at least as important as their own, if not more), who are we leaving the consciousness of future generations to?



    Actually, I'm not convinced of this argument that second-tier folk have to have come from some sort of special parents. My father is an idiot-though I love him dearly. If someone gave me the power to retroactively control who reproduced, I might unwittingly prevent myself from being born! I know lots of really interesting and cool and weird people who came from unutterably dull beginnings, and vice versa.

    Sure, our environment is a factor, as well as genetics. But it ain't no guarantee by a long shot. Just wait until your kids are older! Bwahahaha!

    Liz

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  •  10-16-2006, 5:18 PM 11358 in reply to 11356

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Attachment: 311680.jpg

    There are ways to help uplift consciousness in others (including little 'uns) besides having a lot of children of your own...but whatever...I'd just like to thank Timelody and Vortex for taking up the reproduction challenge - it's a hard job, but somebody's gotta do it.  Smile [:)]

    arthur

     



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  •  10-16-2006, 5:45 PM 11363 in reply to 11356

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    tamgoddess:


    Actually, I'm not convinced of this argument that second-tier folk have to have come from some sort of special parents. My father is an idiot-though I love him dearly. If someone gave me the power to retroactively control who reproduced, I might unwittingly prevent myself from being born! I know lots of really interesting and cool and weird people who came from unutterably dull beginnings, and vice versa.

    Sure, our environment is a factor, as well as genetics. But it ain't no guarantee by a long shot. Just wait until your kids are older! Bwahahaha!

    Liz

    I would never suggest that there are any guarantees, nor would I suggest who has the right to reproduce, which is, of course, my point. But the parental center of gravity is extremely significant -whether it pulls you up, pulls you down, or catapults you to something else by presenting small to massive challenges. There is the other side of the agency/communion coin as well. My children have already tauhgt me a hell of a lot . . . (part of my secret plan).

     Now, as far as waiting for them to grow up to witness their destruction? No need to wait. They're are already doing a wonderful job of it. (And the other part of my secret plan is unfolding beautifully as well Devil [6] . . . . tee hee hee hee hee . . . . .)


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  10-16-2006, 5:56 PM 11364 in reply to 11358

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    adastra:

    There are ways to help uplift consciousness in others (including little 'uns) besides having a lot of children of your own...but whatever...I'd just like to thank Timelody and Vortex for taking up the reproduction challenge - it's a hard job, but somebody's gotta do it. Smile [:)]


    arthur




    Indeed, my little DNA dead-end!

    One of the reasons some people move into community is the desire to be a part of some kind of larger family. We have people here who don't have any children, and sometimes, they have the most patience with kids who need it. It's an infinitely richer world my children live in because of the non-breeders who contribute to it.

    I wonder, if we avoid destruction by some other means, will we ultimately simply dwindle down to a very few almost-enlightened people, who then go on to enlightenment, leaving the world free of hunmans? Or will we move on to other things unimaginable by us? I sure hope Tim's wildly optimistic view that we haven't yet exceeded the carrying capacity of the planet is right, and someone gets to find out. I can't help but be attached to that.

    Liz
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  •  10-16-2006, 8:49 PM 11383 in reply to 11364

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Attachment: emotion-40.gif
    Actually, we're going to transmogrify into godlike super-robots just as the biosphere goes down the tubes, shortly following which I will sire 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 offspring or so.  Or at least, that's what I heard.

    arthur


    I am seeking meaningful work.

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  •  10-16-2006, 11:46 PM 11395 in reply to 11383

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    The Earth is capable of holding many more people - but at what cost?  How much more environmental distruction is nessecary?  Even if the population held steady,  the ascendance of the developing world,  and their demand to live like us,  will screw us.  So yeah,  the Earth can sustain everbody alive right now - as long as we keep a lot of them starving and impoverished.  God forbid they should all get electricity.

    It is true that new technologies are emerging all the time - and I forsee a time when the planet can sustain 20 billion plus people with far less environmental impact than we have today.  But that is only when we outgrow fossil fuels,  begin using asteroids as our primary source of metal ores,  grow food in orbital greenhouse-satelites . . .

    So yeah,  it would be nice if we put the breaks on for a minute.  Except,  when you look at the data,  we have - accross the board,  if you discount imigrants from the developing world and their imediate descendents,  the populations of the developed countries are collapsing.  There is a curve involved here - one we aren't projected to peak untill around 2050.  After that,  if all hell hasn't broken loose (which it probably will) then population will begin a steady decline - and possibly a global collapse.  The question is,  what kind of a world will this shrinking population have inherited?

    Slowing things down before we reach that peak is important.  I don't think any sane person wants to force abortions on anyone who exceeds some limit.  Other methods,  such as eliminating tax credits above two children,  have been proposed,  among others,  to discourage large families.  Why should the government subsidize your choice to breed?  Of course,  the families that are the largest tend to be those of imigrants.  My dad was an only child - but his mom had 7 siblings,  as did the next generation up who were imigrants.  These families are usually already financially strained,  and having a large family is part of the pre-industrial culture.  It takes a few generations to acclimate,  tax exemptions or not.

    It's complicated,  but I think the best thing to do may be to accelerate development in the 3rd world.  The faster they join us in the 1st world,  the sooner their populations will stablalize naturally.  In order to make that transition sustainable we need to focus,  and I mean hardcore focus,  on developing cleaner,  more efficient technologies.  Without that,  we are all screwed.  Can you imagine 6 billion people using electricity like here in the U.S.,  most of it from burning coal?  My God . . .

    Then we can start worrying about the global population collapse and the looming extinction of humanity due to no one wanting to make the sacrifices of parenthood.  Ah well.

    Mike
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  •  10-17-2006, 8:31 AM 11415 in reply to 11320

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Hey arthur,

    It would, I suggest, be interesting to raise the question of how collective needs may interact with individual needs in the reproductive realm; perhaps an integral framework could fruitfully (no pun intended) address the various factors involved.

    Yes I completely agree..........it is necessary to look at all the quadrants to fully understand any issue or phenomena...........and it seems clear to me that the LR is usually given too little attention (and the wrong types of attention) regardless of the level of development of the society............and that is why so many things are falling apart now............

    We seem unwilling to even consider that there may be an optimum level of national or global population that would be of the greatest benefit to the health and happiness of the most number of people in any country or the entire planet..........let alone determining approximately what those numbers might be.............(in my family we decided the optimum size was 2 parents and one child).

    Some (like the organization Negative Population Growth) believe we are already above the optimum levels and want target goals of 250 million in the U.S. and 3 billion worldwide established..........others think we are OK now but shouldn't go higher (at least until we have demonstrated we can adequately take care of those here already) and others think we have more room for growth.............But why not have that ongoing formal discussion out in the open and set policy accordingly?

    What we have now is a defacto policy of "we have more room for continuous growth" without any debate or rational consideration, despite great evidence to the contrary.  Why?  IMO, the answer is that our economy and fiscal system, as it is set up now, depends on continually growing populations.......and those who control these systems (and benefit the most from them) do not want to change them.......or even debate that such changes may be for the greater good of all........

    R.K.


    "No problem can be solved at the level of consciousness that created it in the first place!"

    887 Posts on Forum #1; 222 Posts on Forum #2......Member Since 8/8/2003
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  •  10-17-2006, 12:24 PM 11436 in reply to 11415

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    I am still aghast at the way you come at these issues void of the any trace of interior ethic.

     

    Is any one of you willing to lead the police force that will be necessary to enforce such ideas? And no one has still answered the question, If there are too many, why don't you volunteer to go? Who decides and on what basis who gets to stay? Who has the right to be born? Or who gets to reproduce?

     

    Most important question, What is it exactly that you are so interested in saving anyway? Who do you want to preserve the biosphere for? And why?

     

    As far as I am concerned, when human beings start consciously and intentionally selecting who should live and who should die, in the interest of supposedly preserving life for a select few, a humanity sustaining biosphere is not worth saving anymore, and so let it kill itself.

     

    But none of this will make any sense to you if you continue to look at this through the lens of the supposedly dismissed LR.

     

    One more though. Except in most extreme of cases, even the most unevolved of human parents are willing to die in place of their children. So perhaps you should just set you sites on them to begin with. Or, is that already the plan?

     

     


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  10-17-2006, 1:01 PM 11442 in reply to 11436

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Nice post Tim. I agree completely.

    These kinds of ideas are dangerous, and ill thought out in general.
    Didn't the Nazi's put forth similar ideas in Germany in the 40's?






    In a black and white picture....there's a lot of grey junk
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  •  10-17-2006, 1:13 PM 11446 in reply to 11442

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    I've been trying not to say that, but, yes, Vortex, I don't see how it works out any other way.

    I challenge anyone else here to explain logically, believably and coherently how it does.


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  10-17-2006, 1:32 PM 11450 in reply to 11446

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Jesus, guys, get a grip. Nobody is saying anything like you are reacting to. I think you both need to look at how strong your reactions are. I know that there is no such thing as a "spare" child in a parent's heart. Nobody's saying you need to choose between them.

    I, for one, am not saying that we need to forcibly restrict people to a certain number of children, but there are policies that will encourage or discourage childbearing, say, beyond a certain number. Please, let's not bring out the tired old Nazi comparisons. Things like social security have gone a long way towards reducing family size in western nations, since parents don't need so many children to ensure they'll have a place to live and someone to take care of them. Plentiful access to birth control, etc. is all I have in mind.

    Just discussing such things should be perfectly socially acceptable without being compared to Nazis.

    Liz



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  •  10-17-2006, 2:28 PM 11457 in reply to 11450

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Attachment: muetter.jpg

    Yavol, comrade Tam!

    Shit, I was gonna lay low for a while before playing the "genocide" card, but you clever breeders are way ahead of me on that one!  Indifferent [:|]

    This thread seems way too polarized to me.  Time to slink away before Timelody and Vortex start loading spare babies onto catapults to break through the thick fortress walls of my apparently all-too-assailable position.  Hmm [^o)]

    arthur

    p.s. Caption for image below: I am not sure of the date of this poster, but it looks to be late in the war. The text translates as: "Mothers! Fight for your children!" Note that the mother portrayed has four children, consistent with the Nazi goal of encouraging as many births as possible.  More Nazi propaganda poster fun here.



    I am seeking meaningful work.

    bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

    I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

    "You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn
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  •  10-17-2006, 2:29 PM 11458 in reply to 11457

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    Attachment: daf.jpg

    Meanwhile, can't we all just get along?  Can't we unite in our battle against a common enemy or sumthin'?  Hmm [^o)]

    arthur



    I am seeking meaningful work.

    bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

    I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

    "You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn
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  •  10-17-2006, 2:31 PM 11459 in reply to 11446

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    I want to second the opinion of Liz (edit: and Arthur...you're too quick for me!.)  It seems that some on this thread are VERY attached to the personal right to procreate such that stories are being made up about what others are actually saying.  I just read this thread from top to bottom, and, correct me if I missed something, but I didn't see anyone mention killing off people, other than those bringing Nazis into the conversation.  Perhaps one should look inside anytime there is an intense emotional reaction to what another says.  What I read in the suggestions for limiting population growth was that we should start to look at what impact unlimited growth may have on the biosphere.  In my super duper world crisis solution, written on the inside of a Starbucks hot cup sleeve in Stuart Davis' new IS language (he doesn't know I co-opted it from the Global Matrix of Consciousness...shhhhh),  people would evolve to the level at which they realize that unlimited pop growth is probably unsustainable and then chooose to not have more than x number of children, or trade kid kards with those that abdicate their right.  I like the idea of stopping tax credits after two, just to throw some fossil fuel on the flaming fire of this thread.
    To be nobody-but-yourself -- in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else -- means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop fighting. - E.E.Cummings
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  •  10-17-2006, 2:32 PM 11460 in reply to 11450

    Re: 300 Millionth United Statian

    No, you are not supposing such things I do not suspect, but go back and read the posts since last night.

    According to some of the proposals set forth, we have 50 million too many Americans. Three-and-one-half billion too many human beings. And how these are not just so many "its" in these theoretical workings I just do not know.

     -how to resolve that any other way than exterminate them in favor of the first 3 billion I do not understand. How to "control" this after other than in methods akin to China or worse I just do not know either. I also don't understand how self and loved ones seem to be void in this consideration yet also.

    Liz, as far as you suggestion to look at my strong reaction I already did so yesterday, and knew so even when it came about. Have you experienced the consideration that LR concerns need to be favored over the life of a child-especially yours?

    I have.

    Twice.

    But that still does not change the faulty logic going on in this thread or in the other people around the world attempting to sound these LR absolutized alarms.

    Are there 3.5 billion too many "its?" Or 6 billion, 499 million, 999 thousand 999 now existing reflections of your own Orignal Face?

     

    I challenge all who are so worried about this to contemplate your reaction to what these LR calculations and numbers make to appear in your imaginations.

    Peace, Tim

     

     


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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