Multiplex: What's New | Site Map | Community | News My Multiplex Account | Sign In 
in Search

How long can a state be?

Last post 10-29-2006, 4:33 AM by pelleB. 57 replies.
Page 1 of 4 (58 items)   1 2 3 4 Next >
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  •  10-19-2006, 6:22 PM 11722

    How long can a state be?

    A guy I know went to Buenos Aires, Argentina about a year ago. He's also a tango dancer so he naturally spent most of the month he was there dancing. When he came back home he had found this wonderful connection with the floor, sort of like his lowest chakra had opened up. His own explanation was that after 'stomping the floor' for several hours each night something had finally let go in his body and that was the change I noticed when watching. This newly found connection with the floor seemed to be a permanent trait in him (ie new stage) since he kept it for at least a couple of months after coming back to Scandinavia. But then the weirdest thing happened. He lost what he had found... And it still hasn't returned. Watching him dance is really quite dull again (pardon my frankness...).

    So my question is how long can a state last? Two months?? Or did this guy for some reason regress, or refuse to inhabit the higher stage he had found in his body/dance? I'm confused...


    http://integraleurope.org
    http://pelle.gaia.com
    http://malmointegral.blogspot.com
    • Post Points: 65
    • Report abuse
  •  10-19-2006, 7:55 PM 11725 in reply to 11722

    Re: How long can a state be?

    Hey Pelle,

    This is a wonderful question! I'm so glad you asked it here too. I am working on an answer/post  for you about this, okay? Keep an eye out.

    Peace, Tim


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  10-20-2006, 5:51 AM 11756 in reply to 11725

    Re: How long can a state be?

    Thanks Tim. Looking forward to your thoughts, as always.

    Anybody else who wants to chime in is also very welcome Smile [:)]


    http://integraleurope.org
    http://pelle.gaia.com
    http://malmointegral.blogspot.com
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  10-20-2006, 9:32 AM 11767 in reply to 11756

    Re: How long can a state be?

    I'll just offer some comic relief until Tim comes back:

    How long can a state be? Well, California's really, really long...

    Seriously, I don't think the length of time is the issue. It's how a person can control the state that matters. If your friend could enter that state at will, he would have entered into a new stage. He couldn't lose the ability to get into that state, even if he decided to descend into a lower one.

    That's my simplistic answer.

    Liz

    Upgrade to ISC!
    http://www.integralinstitute.org/public/static/multispirit.aspx
    http://pods.gaia.com/ii
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  10-20-2006, 10:26 AM 11771 in reply to 11722

    Re: How long can a state be?

    Hi Pelle

    My impression, from what you've posted, is that your friend had very good access to a state for a while after he was in Argentina, and then lost that access - not that he had ascended to another stage and then lost it.  Did he have continuous access to that state, I wonder, or only when he was in a particular context (on a dance floor with music and other dancers)?  If he had continued to dance as frequently, maybe he would have kept that access - and maybe it would have become a stage acquisition - anyway, those are my initial impressions.

    arthur


    I am seeking meaningful work.

    bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

    I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

    "You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn
    • Post Points: 35
    • Report abuse
  •  10-20-2006, 3:50 PM 11800 in reply to 11771

    Re: How long can a state be?

    Liz is right. On the drive from Chicago to Boston the state of New York last forever!(Especially when the speed limit was still only 55mph.Tongue Tied [:S] )

    Anyway, what both Liz and Arthur say is correct. When I read your post it actually sent me into a "state" experience of answering but I did not have the chance to write it as the thoughts were coming. But this is an important subject-especially with regard to performing arts, athletics, etc.- and significant for Integral.

     

    My simple answer is that, first, I think you are correct to identify it as some kind of a state experience. Secondly as with consciousness or spiritual states, we can have temporary "peak experiences" which last a few seconds, minutes, hours or even longer or longer plateau experiences which can last days, weeks, months or even longer.

     

    From everything that you say, and based upon all of my own experience and research, I think he had a certain artisitc/dance-realted plateau experience. (Where, as Arthur said, for whatever reason each day as time went on he just had continual access to it whenever he danced.)  Amazing, but it lasted for a time and then . . . it's gone! What happened? Where did it go? Where did it even come from? How did it happen? How can I access it again? etc.

     

    A lot of this is still clouded in mystery, but I do think Integral gives us the best chance to understand what's going on (and how to work with it, etc.)-there is an extraordinary amount of evidence. If you want "the full shabang" from me as far as an answer I will provide it in another (long and essay-like) post (complete with references), but let me know before I hit you with a three-pager.

     

    Two more things. First, is it possible for you to say, do you think after this went away he was better than he was before, the same, or "worse?"

     

    Second, what you say about him having a wonderful connection with the floor rings very true to me with him having some kind of a peak or plateau experience. More on that later though.


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  10-20-2006, 3:58 PM 11801 in reply to 11771

    Re: How long can a state be?

    Liz and Arthur, thank you for your input.

    About the title of this thread... yes, it's wide open for comic relief, that's what happens when I post late at night. Should you translate it into Swedish word by word there will be no misunderstanding though Stick out tongue [:P]Stick out tongue [:P] Posting late now as well BTW.

    The guy I wrote about, who now unknowingly is being discussed transatlantically (bless him), lives about 30 minutes from my town. He is not a close friend nor is he a professional or semiprofessional dancer. I could watch him dance maybe once a week or once every second week when this was unfolding. As far as I could tell his improved connection with the floor was present on and off the dancefloor. To clarify further; it is very common that tango dancers experience state changes after an intense weekend of dancing or after a dance camp. These changes typically include being much more relaxed and fluid than usual and also having an improved connection to the floor. These states usually fade after a couple of days of 'normal' life, though repeated exposure will take you to the next stage obviously. I interpret this as a blockage in the gross or suble body being temporarily released by manic dancing, but popping back into place when the repeated stimulus goes away.

    But would it be possible to be rid of a blockage for several weeks or even a couple of months and then have it 'pop back into place'? ie a very long state change that then fades.

    Or is it more likely that the guy had actually reached a new stage but then feared inhabiting this new worldspace in his everyday life back in Denmark? Or even if he didn't consciously fear the new worldspace was his newer higher stage still not powerful enough to withstand the pressures of everyday life without a gradual self-contraction / bodily contraction?


    http://integraleurope.org
    http://pelle.gaia.com
    http://malmointegral.blogspot.com
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  10-20-2006, 4:07 PM 11802 in reply to 11800

    Re: How long can a state be?

    Tim, thank you! Your post provides a lot of clarity and what you write resonates with me.

    To answer your question: I think he actually dances worse now than before, probably because he tries to do stuff that just doesn't work without the floor connection and centered movement. It's ugly and IMO too rough on the woman.

    If you want to write a longer piece on this Tim, I'll be all ears (or eyes I guess...)


    http://integraleurope.org
    http://pelle.gaia.com
    http://malmointegral.blogspot.com
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  10-20-2006, 5:08 PM 11810 in reply to 11802

    Re: How long can a state be?

    Pelle,

    Great. Now I'm all excited again. I should have some time tonight (US pacific time) to write more.

    Just a tid bit now.

    To answer your question: I think he actually dances worse now than before, probably because he tries to do stuff that just doesn't work without the floor connection and centered movement. It's ugly and IMO too rough on the woman.

    This is where I think we really need to understand these things. One of my own personal opinions is that artistically or athletically these things just seem to have a certain amount of "energy" behind them (no doubt built up over years of practice and brought to a certain fruition, climax or "break-through" by the trip to Argentina, just like you said) and it is as if that energy is only going to last for so long. After a certain amount of time, it's just all gone, or has exhausted itself.

    I will go into more details later, but I think, along with this, it is very possible for that state and that energy to just then sort of exhaust or wear-out the body-as if it is tapping all of it's normal resources and then after . . . yes, very common I think, for it to be, literally, "worse." It was so enjoyable while it was happening, you didn't even realize how much it was wearing the body and all of it's normal energies and resources or whatever the case may be. After, there is maybe even a kind of "burn out" period where no matter how hard you try, it's just not working so well. (In theatre this is behind the known phenomenon of "second night let down" I truly believe.)

    So, . . . you have to build it all back up. (So don't get discouraged!)

    I think when we learn to recognize and work with these states better, this sort of thing wont happen (we can learn to avoid the "burn out" and seek ways to keep replenishing the energy or building it, etc.) and we can indeed, just as you said, work toward turning a temporary state into a permanent trait (stage).

    Very important for both performing arts and athletics!

    One more thing for now just while I am thinking of it. You said "he tries to do stuff that just doesn't work without the floor connection and centered movement."

    It really seems to me that, when in such a state (or however we want to say it) it is indeed possible to do things that require no practice or learning of a sound technique. It happens both out of and because of the state (of inspiration, flow, whatever) but when that state is no longer there . . . there is nothing there any more to support those things, such as a sound and practiced technique structure. This is important too.

    But more later!

    PS-do you guys perform with tango or participate in competitions?-anywhere where a performance with a set time is involved, or is this just more for you like an ongoing practice, hobby, experience etc.?

    Peace, Tim


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
    • Post Points: 35
    • Report abuse
  •  10-20-2006, 8:30 PM 11842 in reply to 11767

    Re: How long can a state be?

    tamgoddess:
    It's how a person can control the state that matters.

    This is is the absolute truth. But also why such things for the performing arts, athletics (and really just about anything not specifically consciousnes as such or spirituality) are so important.

    So far as I know, techniques and methods for specifically doing so-both regularly accessing the various states and then learning to control them, consciously-just have not been developed or do not exist for the arts or athletics. (I keep including athletics becasue it's so related to the topic but also one of the other areas where such things are ripe for development and might be seen pretty often.)

    Integral gives us this chance, and it really is integral to begin integrating the ascending and the descending currents not just for spirituality but for all walks of life, including (and excitingly) the arts.

    Okay, I go now to try and work on that long post -but it might end up being a few in a row. We'll see.

    Peace, Tim


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  10-20-2006, 9:13 PM 11852 in reply to 11722

    Re: How long can a state be?

    If I may answer this, because I had a similar experience.

     

    I never danced in my life, but on being coaxed at a spiritual retreat found that or at least it seemed that not only could I dance but for some weird reason I out danced the whole group to my surprise.

     

    This lasted a month or so

     

    I would have to ascribe this to the Spiritual master’s ability or his exercises that brought something out of me.

     

    This particular teacher specializes in movements: rhythmic movements of the body, not necessarily dancing, but smooth flowing movements with chants, formulas and mantras that together offer a powerful effect on the soul.

     

    It was so amazing that I swore I had to be a dancer in another life.

     

    It may be excess energy coming out or escaping the Chakra system where it had been bottled up.

     

    The organism may experience for a time a smooth flow of energy but eventually if the bottled up energy goes back to its imbalanced condition, well there goes the dancing.

     

    The lesson here may be that we can often times accidentally incite these states but the important thing is to maintain their efficacy in order to go beyond them to the state of non- being.

     

    It is interesting to note concerning this teacher, that he is the head of the ancient order that merged somewhat the Chakra system with the traditional Sufi methodology, and cosmology.

     

    It is known as the Rapidness method.

     

    Anyway, bottom-line, my James Brown days are over

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  10-20-2006, 9:54 PM 11854 in reply to 11801

    Re: How long can a state be?

    Hey, you know what?  The kind of questions you are asking here would be great for the chapter 4 of IS: States and Stages.  Why don't you submit it soon when they start looking for questions for that chapter?  You might get to ask Ken live on the conference call, that would be cool.

    arthur

    I am seeking meaningful work.

    bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

    I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

    "You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn
    • Post Points: 35
    • Report abuse
  •  10-20-2006, 10:09 PM 11856 in reply to 11854

    • FireAngel is not online. Last active: 10-23-2007, 5:07 PM FireAngel
    • Top 100 Contributor
    • Joined on 10-21-2006
    • Southbay/LA
    • Posts 44
    • Points 910

    Re: How long can a state be?

    Questions:

    Is part of the loss of the state due to the relocation of the person?  Would the state persist if he had stayed in Argentina?

    What about the physical body's capacity to maintain the biological effects of the state?   And if the state changes the biology then some level of reconnect to said state should be capable. 

    Is it then the peak bliss effect that then dries up and the mind stops thinking the state is sustainable because the bliss has settled into a deeper resonance


    Now that I know I'm no wiser than anyone else, does this wisdom make me wiser? Hugh Prather
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  10-21-2006, 12:34 AM 11860 in reply to 11856

    Re: How long can a state be?

     

    Hey, that is a good idea Arthur!

     

    I'm still working on my little essay, but Fire Angel asks:

     

    Is part of the loss of the state due to the relocation of the person?  Would the state persist if he had stayed in Argentina?

     

    Generally I would say no. The physical location can, I believe, in fact I absolutely believe, be very responsible for evoking the state in a lot of different ways. Say, by physical, psycho-emotional stimulus, for example, and I personally do believe various energies that are present in different locations that stimulate an individual or are in some sense available for an individual to draw upon. But all of that would mostly be responsible for "evoking" the state not creating it. the state itself comes from the individual. (If he had stayed would it/could it have helped "replenish" and sustain it? I think so, but not necessarily if the person does not know exactly what is happening or what they are doing.)

     

    Also, while I am thinking of it, the LL quadrant will often if not always (I suppose always?) play a pivotal role as well. It's clear, say, in live theatre performances (or musical concerts, etc.) that "the crowd" influences what happens and vice verse. In this case, it seems clear that those in the big tango events ("") contagiously influence one another, etc. and that is one of the wonderful things about it as Pelle describes. (Girard too.) The LR would then just be all the technical means to facilitate any possibilities-but it also has to do with the techniques that have been passed down through any domain. Tango itself is a LR mode or technique (right?) that's shaping all the other quadrants and vice verse.

     

    What about the physical body's capacity to maintain the biological effects of the state?

     

    This is one of the things I think is so incredibly important. The body is the "vehicle" and it has to be in the right condition. The better the condition, the easier it can be maintained. I think we could benefit for this question by thinking of these states more in terms of athletics. If a conditioned runner goes out and has an "inspired run," great! S/he's ready for it and the state will also be able to be taken and go all that much further. But if a heavy smoker has an inspired run . . . it could kill them. (Seriously! The condition of the body, if it is in any way a bodily state, must be in the right condition.)

     

     And if the state changes the biology then some level of reconnect to said state should be capable. 

     

    I am not sure it changes the body per se, as in physically alters its present structures. That would require research but I think it's more that the state "takes over" operation of the body as it is to whatever extent. So, like a good driver getting into a car doesn't change the car. But if we have a really good car, we can really go places with an "inspired drive."

     

    Eventually though, yes, for "permanent adaptation" (which I believe is also the perfect term) the body has to be developed, altered or simply made capable of adapting. To change. All the more reason for an Integral Life (or Artistic, etc.) Practice. (Integral Transformative Practice too.)

     

    Is it then the peak bliss effect that then dries up and the mind stops thinking the state is sustainable because the bliss has settled into a deeper resonance.

     

    If I am understanding you correctly, yes. Or at least the first part - "the peak bliss effect that then dries up" or the "flow" state ends, exhausts its energy or settles.

     

    The mind part is tricky, really, In fact, that s a major subject in itself. (I at least will mention it a little in my forthcoming post.) The mind/psychology can utilize or "kill" a peak state (usually out of fear, surprise, etc. but also absolutely by taking it for granted; a big subject.) It's also worth mentioning that a state experience can actually ruin a performance -if the person is not ready, has never had it happen before and suddenly looses all bearing and gets confused etc. (I am speaking from experience.)

     

    But, can you reword the last part of your sentence, maybe? (i.e. what you mean by a deeper resonance.) I am thinking, especially in the beginning, it's not really that if you handled it properly psychologically it would be necessarily stay -although I think that is possible-but more that we really do need to learn how to "adapt" to such things, cultivate them and so on in order to turn them into permanent traits (or have permanent access). It is also possible, however, I think, that someone could just naturally be "equipped" for that, and it could then happen very rapidly. But everyone is different, and I think that is comparatively rare. It would certainly be special.

    Anyway, hope that helps. More later.

    Peace, Tim


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  10-21-2006, 1:48 AM 11863 in reply to 11810

    Re: How long can a state be?

    timelody:

    It really seems to me that, when in such a state (or however we want to say it) it is indeed possible to do things that require no practice or learning of a sound technique. It happens both out of and because of the state (of inspiration, flow, whatever) but when that state is no longer there . . . there is nothing there any more to support those things, such as a sound and practiced technique structure. This is important too.

    But more later!

    PS-do you guys perform with tango or participate in competitions?-anywhere where a performance with a set time is involved, or is this just more for you like an ongoing practice, hobby, experience etc.?

    The guy we are discussing is not a professional dancer, but he does dance regularly. I don't think he performs with tango, not that I'm aware of anyway. So it's probably a very active hobby of his but no more than that. I think you're spot on when you talk about the absence of a sound technique, that is exactly what is lacking for this guy, and when the state he attained withered away there was simply no technique to support the energetic and stylish dance he could create for a couple of months.

    My personal observations about tango is that you really need two things to be a good dancer. One is the tango technique per se and is what you will learn if you start taking tango classes. But you also need to have a strongly grounded body, which I in my head think about as having the lower chakras open and balanced. In integral terms these two concepts would probably be the tango technique line of development and the body/kinesthetic line, and they most definitely can influence each other's development in my experience. As far as I could tell about our guy (and with the help of everybody's input here), he had a peak state in his body line and was incredibly grounded.


    http://integraleurope.org
    http://pelle.gaia.com
    http://malmointegral.blogspot.com
    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
Page 1 of 4 (58 items)   1 2 3 4 Next >
View as RSS news feed in XML
 © Integral Institute, 2006. all rights reserved - powered by enlight™ email this page del.icio.us | terms of service | privacy policy | suggestion box | help