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Holacracy and Integral Governance Thread

Last post 05-01-2008, 10:57 PM by ralphweidner. 56 replies.
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  •  08-11-2006, 11:07 PM 4152 in reply to 3919

    Re: Holacracy and Integral Governance Thread


    hi all!

    i've posed this question before, but i feel it's particularly relevant to your latest posts on this thread, so i'll pose it again:

    have you listened to the two-part IN dialogue between john mackey and ken wilber?

    ralph

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  •  08-14-2006, 7:39 AM 4297 in reply to 4152

    Re: Holacracy and Integral Governance Thread

    Yes Ralph! I've listened to the two-part IN dialogue between John Mackey and Ken Wilber.
    Tom Mu!!
    Perichorisis
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  •  08-14-2006, 2:47 PM 4316 in reply to 4297

    Re: Holacracy and Integral Governance Thread


    great, tom! i was wondering if some of their ideas about managing 2nd tier organizations wouldn't be of use to you in looking at how to design the rules for running a 2nd tier organization

    ralph

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  •  08-14-2006, 8:30 PM 4331 in reply to 4316

    Re: Holacracy and Integral Governance Thread

    Yes Ralph! The most interesting tidbit I got from the dialog was to find out that Mackey and Fred Koffman are libertarians (I assume small "l" libertarians). Not all of us integrally informed folks come from the left "communitarian" (small "c") side of town. Agency and Communion eh! Tom =)


    Tom Mu!!
    Perichorisis
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  •  08-15-2006, 5:07 AM 4342 in reply to 4331

    Re: Holacracy and Integral Governance Thread

    tom,

    that really caught my attention, too! especially ken's comments that yes, they're libertarians, but 2nd (3rd for fred?) tier libertarians: they're aware, at the same time, of the need for communitarianism: not just agency, but agency-in-communion.

    i was hoping lynn would get a chance to listen to these dialogues as well. the three of us are of similar ages (i'm 64). i got most of my schooling in public institutions, which, at that time, were at least competitive with private institutions. they seem to be slipping further and further behind, and not just in education. these dialogues suggest to me that it may be in the private sector that we have the most opportunity to begin building 2nd tier led institutions--with 2nd tier, hopefully integral, rules of governance.

    ralph

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  •  08-21-2006, 1:04 PM 4870 in reply to 222

    Re: Holacracy and Integral Governance Thread

    Y'all should know that Ternary, the Holacracy people, are having a tele-seminar about Holacracy on September 1st.

    take a look here

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  •  08-28-2006, 2:52 PM 5717 in reply to 4870

    • ternarybrian is not online. Last active: 07-20-2008, 8:27 PM ternarybrian
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    Re: Holacracy and Integral Governance Thread

    Hi Folks,

    I have an e-mail list for notifying interested individuals of Holacracy teleconferences like the one mentioned above and of other Holacracy-related events and content updates.  If you're interested in getting Holacracy announcements and updates, you can sign-up for it via the box on the homepage of www.holacracy.org (which FYI was updated today with some new content, mostly on the "About Holacracy" page).

    Cheers!

     

     


    - Brian J Robertson
    Ternary Software, Inc.
    President & CEO

    http://www.ternarysoftware.com
    http://www.insideagile.com
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  •  10-11-2006, 12:41 PM 10884 in reply to 3919

    • PeterMerry is not online. Last active: 02-17-2007, 1:49 PM PeterMerry
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    Re: Holacracy and Integral Governance Thread

    hi turtle,

    thanks for the reply. i get the point in theory. in practice what i see is that an earlier system can get very attached to its idea of what the right thing to do is, and will continue to push its point until it is fully accepted. a higher level re-frame of the issue to transcend and include it is often simply not accepted, and frustration comes to the surface with the feeling that they are somehow being manipulated into accepting a decision where their concern claims to have been met, but to them looks like its been watered down and not properly honoured - because they literally cannot see the higher system.

    in this case, we are of course talking about a closed system (as opposed to open or even arrested), and i feel that one thing that has not yet been made explicit in the holacracy writings is the need to sometimes draw a boundary to avoid the sabotage of a higher-level system by a closed lower one. the implications of verticality.

    so for example you listen to the objection, you remain open with your heart and mind, probe for the deeper truth in the objection, identify it, reframe the objection as that truth, and suggest we look at how to develop the proposal to make sure that truth is covered. a new proposal emerges, which is highest common denominator proposal, so you haven't dropped the higher level insights to satisfy the lower-level objection, but have truly transcended and included. and still, for a closed lower system, that is not enough. why? because it literally cannot appreciate the higher perspective.

    now i don't know about any other countries, but closed green is pretty prevalent over here. and if you capitulate to it, the whole quality of the proposal drops and you get a lowest common denominator. so once you have truly met the objection, and you and others from the higher perspective can see that it really has been met, yet some people still cannot see it and hold onto their objection, someone at some point has to draw the line, or else you end up going round in circles. someone has to say - "we have heard you, got the essence of the objection, integrated it, and are now going to move on. if you cannot live with this, then you can choose to leave this group."

    now one would hope that this would be a rare occurence, i just think we need to face everything and avoid nothing in these processes, and accept that drawing boundaries is part of creating space. you then get into a very on-the-edge conversation about who is the one who ultimately does draw the line, and what is their mandate to do so - and my experience is that you just have to say "it is me / us, and it is so because we are the ones who have taken the responsibility to lead this show, and if you don't like it, you are always free to leave." the wonderful dance between clarity and compassion...

    peter
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  •  10-12-2006, 2:05 PM 10969 in reply to 10884

    Re: Holacracy and Integral Governance Thread

    Dear All,

    I'm in my usual dizzy-tizzy preparing for tomorrow night when ICC/NY hosts Diane Hamilton, willow Pearson and Sofia Diaz.

    BUT--here's whta I'd like to add to this conversation.  Since I last posted, I took the Integral leader seminar and was able to see holacratic systems in operation at I-I, plus have a 3 hr. dinner with Brian where I peppered him with tons of questions.  What a great experience....

    So in NYC, two of our members are beginning an Affinity Goup for B&L, probably around November 3rd in NYC, and we'll have Brian as our guest.  I'm obsessed with the idea of Integral theory in practice, and gathering local businesspeople together to learn and then to work on real-world practices is a dream come true.  We have great plans to have a project that the entire affinity group will handle over weeks and months, and then when we assemble again, we'll see what we've learned, and then contribute as best practices to the larger Integral community.

    Any input to this idea, y'all? 

    Lynne

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  •  10-13-2006, 11:12 AM 11041 in reply to 10969

    • PeterMerry is not online. Last active: 02-17-2007, 1:49 PM PeterMerry
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    Re: Holacracy and Integral Governance Thread

    Hi Lynne,

    Great to hear that all of this is being taken into practice - that's where the integral rubber hits the road. My input would be to please set up some kind of system where the learning from your practice gets captured and made available to the wider community. As we all play on this frothy edge, insights from real-time experience is invaluable.

    How about the Affinity Group deciding to organise itself to do something and experimenting with using the holacracy principles to organise itself... Always best to apply it oneself to get the highest quality learning, in my experience...

    Love, Peter
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  •  10-14-2006, 10:52 AM 11105 in reply to 11041

    Re: Holacracy and Integral Governance Thread

    Attachment: P7270438_merge.jpg
    M E R G E
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  •  10-23-2006, 11:05 AM 12113 in reply to 11041

    Re: Holacracy and Integral Governance Thread

    Dear Peter and All,

    Jessica Safran is going to take the lead in having Brian and a panel in NYC to speak on holacracy.  If we can get it taped with sufficient clarity, I'd like to offer it to this thread, and for those of you such as yourself who cannot be in NYC, might you or any of you be interested in posting your questions for us to ask Brian and the panel?

    I appreciated your discussion of open/closed systems, and about how ALL of the groups in NY and globally intend to self-organize.  I have queries of my own about that, which includes an interesting development where many of the global salon leaders have been emailing one another in wider circles asking about best practices.  But as a "confederation" and not a hierarchical system, how can/should/do we utilize this theory?

    Lynne

     

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  •  10-23-2006, 11:12 AM 12122 in reply to 10884

    Re: Holacracy and Integral Governance Thread

    PeterMerry:
    a higher level re-frame of the issue to transcend and include it is often simply not accepted, and frustration comes to the surface with the feeling that they are somehow being manipulated into accepting a decision where their concern claims to have been met, but to them looks like its been watered down and not properly honoured - because they literally cannot see the higher system. in this case, we are of course talking about a closed system (as opposed to open or even arrested), and i feel that one thing that has not yet been made explicit in the holacracy writings is the need to sometimes draw a boundary to avoid the sabotage of a higher-level system by a closed lower one. the implications of verticality. so for example you listen to the objection, you remain open with your heart and mind, probe for the deeper truth in the objection, identify it, reframe the objection as that truth, and suggest we look at how to develop the proposal to make sure that truth is covered. a new proposal emerges, which is highest common denominator proposal, so you haven't dropped the higher level insights to satisfy the lower-level objection, but have truly transcended and included. and still, for a closed lower system, that is not enough. why? because it literally cannot appreciate the higher perspective. now i don't know about any other countries, but closed green is pretty prevalent over here. and if you capitulate to it, the whole quality of the proposal drops and you get a lowest common denominator. so once you have truly met the objection, and you and others from the higher perspective can see that it really has been met, yet some people still cannot see it and hold onto their objection, someone at some point has to draw the line, or else you end up going round in circles. someone has to say - "we have heard you, got the essence of the objection, integrated it, and are now going to move on. if you cannot live with this, then you can choose to leave this group." now one would hope that this would be a rare occurence, i just think we need to face everything and avoid nothing in these processes, and accept that drawing boundaries is part of creating space. you then get into a very on-the-edge conversation about who is the one who ultimately does draw the line, and what is their mandate to do so - and my experience is that you just have to say "it is me / us, and it is so because we are the ones who have taken the responsibility to lead this show, and if you don't like it, you are always free to leave." the wonderful dance between clarity and compassion... peter

    Peter, this is becoming more and more obvious to me as I begin working with holacracy, and I really need to ask Brian more about this, since he has told me so many stories of folks up and down the deelopmental spiral who happily and productively utilize his system with grace.  I have not seen it enough to comment on it, altho I agree with you that closed Green is smart enough to catch onto what you are doing, and subvert it.  I also agree that there comes a very sad time when we have to say goodbye to those who refuse to actually acceed to the decisions, and boundary-marking is not easy for many of us, given our  internatlized cultural and gender stereotypes.  The classic problem of female power is one that I'd love to see I-I deal with in a seminar, as well as masculine and feminine power, and how their styles might differ in a holacratic system, if at all??

    Lynne

     

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  •  12-09-2006, 8:59 PM 16251 in reply to 12122

    • gary is not online. Last active: 11-11-2007, 10:39 AM gary
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    Re: Holacracy and Integral Governance Thread

    Lynne, Peter,

    At SeattleIntegral we've faced this problem. There are two choices as we've seen it: either find a way for the green monad to work within the dominanant mode of discourse, or remove them, and we've succesfully done the former in one instance, and sadly had to do the latter in another. For either of these to work, the dominant mode of discourse has to be at second tier or it's just the same old first tier stuff. Skillful means accomplished the first, and a certain amount of ruthless acceptance of hierarchies and the greater good is necessary for the second.

    Gary

    Gary Stamper
    www.garystamper.com
    http://garystamper.blogspot.com/

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  •  12-10-2006, 5:25 PM 16300 in reply to 16251

    Re: Holacracy and Integral Governance Thread


    hey gary! this sounds great, but you know me: i've got to complain about something. so, why not say holarchy instead of hierarchy, as in

    red, amber and orange think in terms of hierarchy,

    green in terms of heterarchy, and

    turquoise in terms of holarchy, i.e. both heterarchy and hierarchy, an integral approach.

    hope to see you again in portland,

    ralph

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