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Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

Last post 08-05-2007, 11:46 AM by Lizzie. 53 replies.
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  •  02-27-2007, 3:36 PM 19739

    • guydavis is not online. Last active: 09-25-2008, 8:30 AM guydavis
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    Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    I've been wondering what unhealthy Teal/Turqoise/Indigo look like.

    Is it possible to move to 2nd tier and be able to see first tier and then become fundamental in your assertions that anyone at green should be able to see the same things you see at 2nd tier?

    Also, is there any material online or in Ken's books that describe the differences between the 3 colors in 2nd tier?

    My current understanding is that once you reach 2nd tier (at least cognitively) then you can recognize the first tier stages however to be able to fluidly and naturally move among those stages might not emerge until Indigo.

    Of course I'm not taking all of the lines of development into account here so I imagine that the interpersonal line would have to be at Indigo in order to interact with others in that fluid way.

    Thanks so much.

    Guy Davis
    guy@dancelovers.com
    http://www.dancelovers.com
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  •  02-27-2007, 4:40 PM 19745 in reply to 19739

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    By a groovy coincidence, Liz/Tamgoddess just started a thread on this subject in IIzaadz:

    The Turquoise Shadow - Do You Have It?

    You may be interested in perusing that.  She refers to my recent conference call with Ken Wilber in which I asked that question; I'll jump into the thread discussion I linked to above once I get a chance.

    You may have already seen this, but there is a great introductory document by Ken on the Altitude colors, available here (among other places).  I'm guessing that the upcoming release of a vastly updated (400 more pages!) Transformations of Consciousness will provide more details on the color scheme.

    Note that there are only two colors in second-teir - teal and turquoise - with indigo being part of what he considers "third tier" in that particular mapping scheme.  "Indigo" actually stands for "all the stages beyond turquoise" none of which have been developed by very many people so far - thus the amount of information on those rare stages is quite limited at the present time.

    spiral out,
    arthur






    I am seeking meaningful work.

    bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

    I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

    "You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn
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  •  02-27-2007, 9:34 PM 19760 in reply to 19745

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    Dear Guy:  I assume you must know that the other half of Wilber/Combs lives/and/or teaches in Ashville.  What a beautiful place.

    And author, I am really interested in Guy's question and your call with Ken.  I don't catch up on those since I get the tapes in the mail and never know what I will get.After I  find out, I go back and listen to what I miss.  It is hard to wait but there is so much else to do, that I still never catch up.  I will be reading the pieces that you suggested.  This is something that I am very interested in And wondered about.

    Thanks to you both  Pattye

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  •  02-27-2007, 9:58 PM 19762 in reply to 19745

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    I read the thread authur.  OH MY GOD!!!  I will join.  You won.  However, I have one little problem with you people.  "Don't get out too far in front of the parade or you will not hear the music.  Being patient with those who have not found their voice is part of Turquoise. and yet we need both kinds.  On the Myers/Briggs, I am a

    INFP   That P is a person who always needs a little more information. So along with being the other three, I can just bet what most of you guys are.  I know I am pretty wonderful until I get around people like you and then I have to fight to not feel like a fraud and lose my voice and start stuttering a bit. I hang in there and eventually make a connection so I figure you are my best teachers.  I not sure if I am readly to say this to a whole group cause there you all are.   Great Thread.  Super Thread.  I will go back.  Time and Courage.  We need both kinds.    Hope you come back here and keep checking.  You do have all the info.  Brainiac.  Love Pattye

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  •  02-28-2007, 12:52 AM 19772 in reply to 19745

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions


    hi arthur,

    i've looked at the thread--it's really refreshing to see all the positive feelings that have flowed from this one remark from ken
    tamgoddess relayed ken's response to adastra's question:
    The shadow of Turquoise is an inability to see one's own greatness.


    i suspect that, down deep, our biggest complaint is that he's not more available than he already is--like, the rest will just have to wait a couple more months or so to hear the conversation you and ken had, in order to get the wonderful context for that quote.

    in the mean time, i'm hung up on the word 'inability'. i've just listened to the latest segment of fred kofman's talk at ISC2, in which he looks at the defect of running away in pretended innocence from our response ability. to the extent we don't realize we are doing this, it is a shadow, and if it becomes ingrained, response ability will atrophy into 'inability' to respond, whether to see our potential greatness, or just about anything else, for that matter.

    but what do you think ken had in mind?

    incidentally, i think ALL of you posting on that thread are great, although possibly in ways you haven't yet acknowledged.

    to the greatness of turquoise!

    ralph

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  •  02-28-2007, 4:48 AM 19775 in reply to 19739

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    For those of you who have not read of Nomali's position at I-I, you might want to read what happened to her at I-I. It's in I-I blogs. This is what so-called 2nd tier thinking can wallow in, especially in an organizational structure. I-I faces some serious 2nd tier color questions. Maybe someone can answer from I-I to explain to its members what is going on? This is her second letter. You might want to read the first one.

     

    perera said:

    My Dear Friends,
    I have read the incredible messages you have left here and the many private emails. This is too much to take! I am not worthy!!

    Truly, I am touched. Thank You, thank you, thank you.

    One thing I must say is that, dear friends, I think it is unfortunate indeed that I was informed via email. But the person who sent it is a dear, dear friend and he did not at all take it flippantly that he had to inform me this way; in fact, he was very sorry he had to be the messenger. And one of the biggest reasons that he decided to email me was because he did not have my Sri Lankan phone numbers and also because he realized that if I knew even a day ahead before my departure to the USA, that I may have chosen to stay on in Sri Lanka, or postpone or take some time to think about what I might want to do since I did not have a job to come back to.

    In hindsight, I am sure there were better ways of doing this but it really was done with some good intention behind it – although, it ended up rather emotionally-disastrous, with me lacking internet access in Sri Lanka (which is not the fault of I-I) and hence, finding out in Hong Kong. In my humble opinion, something those who made the lay-off decision really could have done was to first and foremost contact Rollie since he was the Chief Facilitator of ISC and he was one with whom I was working and he knew how to contact me in Sri Lanka. I feel, in a way, that Rollie was not very respected when they chose not to inform him that his co-worker was laid off, that he had to do everything I was doing so far and also take on other duties. As a long time employee of I-I, I really feel he should have been informed, if not consulted.

    And as for the decision to lay-off (which happens in all organizations at some point) let’s not also forget that, maybe I just didn’t have the skills that II needed for its Phase 3. I could be just not good enough, guys :-/ So, then, I must push myself off the life boat.right? And other ‘inside’ details – I would have no idea.

    And even beyond that, it could also be that a decision that I was afraid to make on my own was made for me. As sad and rejected and all those other ‘lovely’ emotions as I felt, I really do think that this is just the right time for me to move on. I cannot quite tell you yet, but I really think that some amazing doors will open for me ;-)

    So, it is indeed sad and frustrating that communication sucked and I-I has a history of sometimes not knowing how to treat its employees/volunteers but then, there were decent intentions behind the email and also, decent and inescapable reasons why it did not work. Eventually, no one is to be blamed for how everything unfolded. I like to believe that we all did the best we could. This is just life doing its thing :-) Meanwhile, there are some people getting bombed, gunned down and little children begging for food in some parts of the world :-(

    One thing I have come to realize is that I have a gift – a kind of Sacred Contract that I have to sign with the Divine and manifest. I am not even sure what it is but it could look something like, Relative Time & Meat Space & Virtual Integral Community Development and I promise to you all that I will do all I can to actualize it- hopefully, with your help too…I do not want to leave I-I blaming it for anything. I am ultimately, nobody’s victim.

    I thank you again, friends, for the incredible love and care you have show here.
    Gosh, I Love You!
    Nomali
    PS- I am so sorry, I made you read all that. And it is past my bedtime and I don't know if I made any sense at all!

    JC
    33° 13' N 87° 37' W
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  •  02-28-2007, 10:51 AM 19783 in reply to 19775

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    I certainly can’t answer for II, and I doubt you will get any kind of answer on such internal affairs; this is not really a public matter. I can say that I personally don’t understand why this has happened, though I don’t think it was done out of ill will or a place of shadow. None of us really have enough information to decide if such a decision was second tier or not.  Everyone at II is saddened by this, and I must say I was a bit angry and heartbroken with the news. There are times when people don’t fit in a position anymore or their position dissolves over time, I don’t know if that is the case here, but I am just amazed by Nomali’s ability to accept this news with as much grace and integrity as she did. Maybe when people are as sweet and humble as Rollie and Nomali, you get stepped on sometimes.  This is why a part of me feels like she was too good for II, she out grew it in some profound way, now with the strength, integrity, and ability to create so much beauty in the world. Whether or not it was a mistake or just executed with traditional II awkwardness, it is done and it will be unclear for a long time whether it was for the better or worse… My prediction is worse for II, but better for Nomali, and that makes me happy for Nomz!

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  •  02-28-2007, 3:55 PM 19795 in reply to 19739

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    Unhealthy second tier comes from the lingering ego, combined with the general idea that no one is perfect.  Ego defense doesn't fall away until at least Indigo or perhaps Violet or maybe higher, from what I understand.  And as long as you're still trying to defend your self (your ideas, your lifestyle, your work, etc.) you're going to have unhealthy action. 

    Note that this relates to the development of the emotional line, not the cognitive line.  My experience leads me to believe that there are many people in II and outside, who are well into the third tier cognitively, but on an emotional scale, they are probably only up to Green, Teal, or Turquoise.  And there is still tons of unhealthy stuff at those stages :-)

    How do you know what unhealthy stuff at second and third tier looks like?  It's looks pretty much the same as unhealthy stuff in the first tier - depression, anger, burnout, stress, physical illness, and general apathetic malaise.  The symptoms are the same no matter where you are, it's only the underlying reasons that are different.  Someone cognitively at second or third tier might be stressed out (and therefore wind up stressing others out) when they can't get a job in a field where they can experience a broad range of viewpoints, and learn from them, or when their Integral book that they've spent years working on is rejected by all the publishers.  That stress might cause them to become angry and lash out at those close to them, or they may withdraw and become depressed.  If they happen to have been trained in meditation or some other form of state/consciousness control, they will probably be more able to counteract the effects of the stress.   And, obviously, some training and practice in shadow processing, Byron Katie's inquiry, NLP, or Cognitive Behavior Therapy, will help emmensely too, in dealing with the stress, and in preventing stress in the first place.

    And on that note, I'm going to go do a bit of state exploration myself, to deal with some stress I caused myself this afternoon during a little discussion with my family (stuck somewhere between Blue and Green, and not at all supportive of my latest lifestyle and ideas...)

    Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
    Turtle
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  •  02-28-2007, 8:36 PM 19797 in reply to 19795

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    It seems to me that the lack of recognition towards Don Beck (Spiral Dynamics) in Kens latest book and this letter from Don Beck would be considered unhealthy itersubjectivity between the two. 

    "...Finally, and I truly believe what I'm about to suggest:

    It is time that we all became more accountable. It is simply not enough, if anyone claims to exist within the 7th Level system or even so-called "Second Tier," to live off of the hard work and fruits of others without paying back in financial terms or in participating in the further  development of the way of thinking.

    You must pardon my personal reference, but if I had not at a difficult time in my life been the only person to help Clare W. Graves financially, or to support him emotionally and, most certainly, to create opportunities for him to extend his own life and influence, I dare say his name would only be an obscure footnote in an academic study now. And, the entire I-I movement would have seriously lacked what gave it cohesion, a language the people continue to use, and practical experiences and case-studies that are beginning to resonate. You recall it was Ken Wilber, in his  book A Theory of Everything, that called it "the theory that explains everything," as the entire book is based on what he called "The Amazing Spiral."

    In all cases the intellectual integrity of this point of view, the original Graves perspectives, and the modification and extensions into Spiral Dynamics Integral will hence-forth need to be respected and not distorted for self-gain. I do not accept that one can attempt to escape accountability by exploiting the fruits of thirty years of work by way of bypassing the SD and SDi depictions while claiming one is "going
    back to Graves" instead. (Amazing how folks who do so continue to use SD/SDi language and concepts that Graves never used.)

    Finally, I do not accept the claim that the material is in the public domain. Those who advance this justification are only showing how Orange sleaze operates, by ignoring their responsibility to contribute to the long and difficult development of the source code along with a myriad of applications in difficult places around the world.

    If we are not willing to walk the ethical talk, then we are simply not in a position to teach these concepts to other people.

    I know everybody has limits, time conflicts, and other responsibilities, but be advised that 2007 is going to be the year of accountability.

    The seriousness of the challenges and threats that face ALL of us require that we elevate ourselves from political games, economic opportunism, and careless hijacking of what are authentic parts of a seamless and truly integral package.  If we ourselves cannot do this we have nothing to offer anybody else.

    Don"


        However, is this a matter of unhealthy 2nd tier+ or unhealthy 1st tier traits emerging?  I know that for about 16 sundays out of the NFL year there is some seriouse unhealthy RED comming out of my home! But come Monday the sky is clear.

      One more thought.  The message of 'The Secret,' using a connection with higher consciousness to obtain material possesions, nasty. 
    I wrote more about it here.  http://embracetheuniverse.zaadz.com/blog

    namaste, B.

    There is no individual possession, only universal belonging.
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  •  02-28-2007, 9:22 PM 19798 in reply to 19797

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    B.,

    In keeping with Don's call for accountability and adequate attention to source code, I for one would expect, that when a letter/exerpt is posted that context be noted, as in, to whom it was addressed, when, in response to...

    Otherwise, we are left with a case of the media demonstrating the message via negativa.

    Let it begin here.

    kcd

     

     


    'takes all kinds.
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  •  03-01-2007, 4:51 AM 19799 in reply to 19797

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    May I ask where Don Beck posted this?
    JC
    33° 13' N 87° 37' W
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  •  03-01-2007, 6:36 AM 19803 in reply to 19799

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    No problem, here is the entire email sent to me just prior to the event.

    From the Clash to the Confluence of Civilizations:

    Cartography for the 21st Century



    Colleagues and Friends,

    Plans for the annual Washington (DC) Macro*Memetics Summit next week are taking final shape. The theme will deal with how clashes in civilizations, as defined by Samuel Huntington, can be transformed into the confluence of civilizations. How, in short, the competitive and conflict-driven nature of memetic codes can, instead, become connecting bands.

    We are dealing here with deep conflict at the core, in the tectonic, fractal-like 'value system' plates, rather than attempts that focus only on surface level manifestations of these vast differences.

    One of the sub-themes that we will develop is to track how civilization ‘heaps' form in the first place; what the Life Conditions are that spark them; what the human dynamics, both individual and group, are that create and sustain them; and what is it that makes the boundaries rigid where ‘us vs. them’ polarization dominate the scene. Then, of course, stigmas, stereotypes, and the tendency to see in the other the face of the enemy – demonizing – prevails in group relationships.

    And then we will use state-of-the-art theoretical formulations buffeted by real world experiences in some of the most difficult places on the planewhere clashes are historic and violent – such as South Africa, the Middle East, in Southeast Asia and even in this country. This rich experience is not for the faint-hearted or those who are already locked in to any Flatlander ideology.

    The experience will be enriched by a series of world class presenters who are known for their insights and especially their backgrounds in confronting these issues in harm’s way. This list includes George Anne Geyer, award-winning foreign correspondent; John Petersen, President of The Arlington Institute, who is one of our best known futurists and designer of a measuring technology that generates a global vital signs monitor and early surprise indicator; Dr. Tom Barnett, author and formerly of the US Naval War College who, in his book The Pentagon's New Map, has been crafting a balanced approach for dealing with the developmental gaps to reduce levels of violence; and Dr. Akbar Ahmed, a leading global authority on Islamic religious and ethical systems and expert on how more moderate positions can be facilitated.

    The teaching/learning  sequences will move from some simulation, to a Margaret Mead-inspired sapient circle, to the design of a full-court press strategy that will align the memetic codes up and down the spiral with a series of imaginative tools and initiatives. Many of these were used successfully in the South Africa and are now being up-dated for an application in the troubled Middle East.

    In fact, the Center for Human Emergence-Middle East team will attend our Summit, as we are preparing to return to Israel-Palestine on January 16. You will witness, on a first-hand basis, the planning that the team is doing and what we hope to accomplish. As you well know, this initiative is being funded by John Smith, owner of Hearthstone Homes in Omaha.

    The entire Washington Summit is funded in part by John Mackey, chairman of the board of Whole Foods Market.

    We will present our traditional SDi Level One certification program on January 8, 9, and 10. I will be working once again with Cherie Beck in this program. Mike Jay, well known globally as a business coach and change agent, will work with me in the SDi Level Two Macro*Memetics Washington Summit January 11, 12, and 13.

    As many of you know, one of our earlier Macro*Memetics summits dealt with a scenario regarding the future of Cuba that is becoming more and more relevant now given the illness of Castro. I don't know of any other event that provides you the opportunity to use the insights and tools from the Graves conceptual system, the Spiral Dynamics Integral extension, and anything within the Integral Institute world.  Those who keep asking for practical applications should leave no stone unturned in learning how to apply such a powerful model in areas that are impacting our own survival as a country and planet.

    ________________________________
     
    From the Clash to the Confluence of Civilizations:
    Cartography for the 21st Century

    Washington, DC   January 8-13, 2007

    For more information and to register now, click here.
    _________________________________

     
    Finally, and I truly believe what I'm about to suggest:

    It is time that we all became more accountable. It is simply not enough, if anyone claims to exist within the 7th Level system or even so-called "Second Tier," to live off of the hard work and fruits of others without paying back in financial terms or in participating in the further  development of the way of thinking.

    You must pardon my personal reference, but if I had not at a difficult time in my life been the only person to help Clare W. Graves financially, or to support him emotionally and, most certainly, to create opportunities for him to extend his own life and influence, I dare say his name would only be an obscure footnote in an academic study now. And, the entire I-I movement would have seriously lacked what gave it cohesion, a language the people continue to use, and practical experiences and case-studies that are beginning to resonate. You recall it was Ken Wilber, in his  book A Theory of Everything, that called it "the theory that explains everything," as the entire book is based on what he called "The Amazing Spiral."

    In all cases the intellectual integrity of this point of view, the original Graves perspectives, and the modification and extensions into Spiral Dynamics Integral will hence-forth need to be respected and not distorted for self-gain. I do not accept that one can attempt to escape accountability by exploiting the fruits of thirty years of work by way of bypassing the SD and SDi depictions while claiming one is "going
    back to Graves" instead. (Amazing how folks who do so continue to use SD/SDi language and concepts that Graves never used.)

    Finally, I do not accept the claim that the material is in the public domain. Those who advance this justification are only showing how Orange sleaze operates, by ignoring their responsibility to contribute to the long and difficult development of the source code along with a myriad of applications in difficult places around the world.

    If we are not willing to walk the ethical talk, then we are simply not in a position to teach these concepts to other people.

    I know everybody has limits, time conflicts, and other responsibilities, but be advised that 2007 is going to be the year of accountability.

    The seriousness of the challenges and threats that face ALL of us require that we elevate ourselves from political games, economic opportunism, and careless hijacking of what are authentic parts of a seamless and truly integral package.  If we ourselves cannot do this we have nothing to offer anybody else.

    Don

    __________________________________________________________

    The Spiral Dynamics Group

    Don Edward Beck, Ph.D
    Co-founder, National Values Center, Denton, TX.
    Founder/CEO, The Spiral Dynamics Group, Inc.
    Founder/President, Global Center for Human Emergence.
    Faculty, Adizes Graduate School, Santa Barbara.
    940.383.1209 / 940.300.6363

    Email: DrBeck@attglobal.net
    General SDi Inquiries:
    info@spiraldynamics.net
    Visit us on the Web: www.spiraldynamics.net


     

    There is no individual possession, only universal belonging.
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  •  03-01-2007, 11:30 AM 19817 in reply to 19803

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    My guess is that Don Beck's shadowy letter here is coming from Yellow/Teal, where your motivation is to act on your newfound understanding of the structures of life.  Because your new world-centric view is, well world-centric, your main goal in life is to save the world.  And your main value is that the way to do that is to use this structure that you've discovered as a guidebook or map.  And when you see someone else coming along who wants to change that structure - literally rewrite your guidebook and map - your hackles raise, your defenses will go up, and your intellect will step back so that your protective anger can take the lead.  Obviously, if you've made it to second tier, your anger will look a whole lot different than it might at Red, Purple/Magenta, or Blue/Amber.  At second tier, your anger will be framed in a highly elegant way, and appear to many people to be quite reasonable.  But you can tell that it's unhealthy shadow anger because it tries to force reality to be something it isn't.  (Remember, when you argue with reality, you always lose.)

    However, not being Don Beck himself, I can't possibly know exactly what his motives were for writing that letter, so it's impossible to tell if it truly is shadow anger seeping out, or if it's just some elaborate ploy to make us think that he's angry :-) 

    Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
    Turtle
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  •  03-01-2007, 12:33 PM 19821 in reply to 19817

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

        It probably has something to do with the footnotes beginning in Chapter 4 of Integral Spirituality, and other discussions they had prior.  Personally I feel Ken and Don should have kept this amongst themselves and found a way to reconcile their differences. Integral heads are a rarity, but I guess this shows how the Ego lurks at every level.

        Anyway, I am sure nobody 2nd tier is interested in Integral Drama.

    Namaste, B.


    There is no individual possession, only universal belonging.
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  •  03-01-2007, 12:39 PM 19823 in reply to 19821

    Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions

    Oh yeah,

    Thanks Turtle for the very well recieved posts.

    B.

    There is no individual possession, only universal belonging.
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