The Frothy Edge about the week's featured dialogue.en-USCommunityServer 2.0 (Build: 60217.2664)Re: sports & spirituality, 29 May 2008 23:14:47 GMTee28e699-b6ce-41f9-9b68-f4b3d2b14a5b:53698inmanagingeditor0 guys - just a reminder - if you have any questions about Sports and Spirituality that you would like David Meggyesy to respond to, he has made himself available for interactions with the Integral community.  Just submit any questions you might have to
Re: sports & spirituality, 29 May 2008 23:00:24 GMTee28e699-b6ce-41f9-9b68-f4b3d2b14a5b:53695ambosuno0, that's pretty interesting, actually to see him by the field, engaged in some apparent connection larger than his ordinary human relational self.

That must be a gas to go to a ball game, & red sox-mariners, with friends.

My daughter and her husband just moved to the SoCal town adjacent to me, from Seattle where he's from. I thought about moving there near them - now it would be after three years when they return. But I am discovering that my older constitution may be coming to dig the sun too much.

Back to sports - bummer about the sonics having to leave, eh?
Re: sports & spirituality, 29 May 2008 08:26:10 GMTee28e699-b6ce-41f9-9b68-f4b3d2b14a5b:53574schalk0

I recently mentioned that professional athletes in general are probably not moving as far as we like to credit them up the levels and lines.

I mentioned also that Manny Ramirez, though he may engage in visualization, may very well be simply visualizing hitting a ball, hitting a ball, and then sitting down. This doesn't make him 2nd Tier.

So, tonight several of us went to Safeco Field in Seattle to watch the final game of the Red Sox - Mariners series. And we are sitting off the left field foul pole, just adjacent to Manny.

He is doing something. It seems like he is praying or talking to God. At one point, he is looking to Heaven in supplication. In the next moment, his head is bowed.

There is something utterly honest and open about him. One gets the overwhelming sense that he is in the garden, doing something more than simply playing a game.

I did not realize that one could participate in what seems to be a game with such an attitude.

There are many Red Sox fans in this corner of the stadium. They seem to regard this man with estimation and a direct reverence that is normally not extended to an athlete.

I felt like he was bringing something down through the roof of the stadium into the field of play.



Re: sports & spirituality, 27 May 2008 05:05:24 GMTee28e699-b6ce-41f9-9b68-f4b3d2b14a5b:53065pattye0

Once again,  Michael Murphy" books.  I think he also wrote "Golf in the Kingdom". I could have that so wrong.  And remember, ambo, KW says that there are only 2% of people in the world that are at one of the high altitudes.  The athlete that gave the money, maybe.   And we can still get in the Zone and George Leonard says that after a good workout, meditation is never so juicy.   He and Murphy wrote a book called

"The Lives We Are Given".    It won't give you the same thrill that some of these great athletes and teams you speak of but there is a whole philosophy behind all this that is the same.   If you have not tried ILP, you could experience it for yourself esp if you add some of the other exercises that are suggested.  You can supplement with your own favorite and the most wonderful beautiful prayer or offering or blessing that was put together for a start has movement and naturually has one embody what is said. (after you get the words memorized and your body to twist in the right way -beginners)  Stay with it.   There is a reason.  If you cannot affort the kit, buy the small book called "Integral Vision"  from the "store" on sight here.   It is somewhere around 15.00 as opposed to the over 150 for the kit.  The book has all the directions for that and much more.  Sort of sumarizes everything into a  very small space.   The point is we all need movement in our lives daily or at least a few times a week.   You guys are getting too interesting.   I do not want to spend too much time on-line .  

schalk and Mark-  I always read all your stuff.     Thanks    Pattye

Re: sports & spirituality, 26 May 2008 22:27:38 GMTee28e699-b6ce-41f9-9b68-f4b3d2b14a5b:53009ambosuno0 couple of more thoughts. Though probably not '2nd tier', I sometimes think that the work that professional sports and the individual actors have done is herculean in the we area of kneading and working and healing the cultural rifts between races and socio-economic and class divisions. I think that people having to work together, play together, come to harmonious action together is powerful, and though maybe emphasizing 'green' relating, I feel that there must be frequent emanations of affection that climb (and descend) the charts to oneness with facets of love. Yes these are probably mainly states but they maybe reset the parameters of what is possible for the participants, organizations, and audience, become attractors that can generalize and must have generalized to some extent already. No, not always, and not all-lasting, and limited, but wow - the sweetness of some of that new territory feels almost transmaterial/spiritual. Sometimes it feels huge to me.

I wonder who would be a good sports figure who might have an exchange with Ken who might have understood enough of the largeness of life, has some familiarity with meditation and and with human development, and with substantial cognitive/verbal capacities to articulate and to follow Ken. The only name that comes to mind for me is Phil Jackson of the Los Angeles Lakers. However, obviously there are a number of 'ifs'. Phil appears in his sports interviews to rely on a comfortably laconic style that may serve him well in the sport. If the energy of an interview got stuck there it could be a drag. It would be interesting to know if he has read or paid any attention to Ken's work. Would he be willing to let go of being an authority long enough to be the student or co-laborator on a discussion? I don't have a good enough sense of him to know whether it would work or not. It might be interesting for IN to query that. Now is the NBA playoff season and a lot of eyes are on this activity and highest of the high athletic and team performance. I believe that Phil just became the most winning playoffs coach in NBA history. He has some reputation as an intelligent and outside of the box coach who assigns growth books to individuals and I think sometimes leads moments of silence and meditation. Someone here may know more about him than I. He could be an interesting interview if he were screened first and if he were willing. ambo
Re: sports & spirituality, 22 May 2008 03:07:41 GMTee28e699-b6ce-41f9-9b68-f4b3d2b14a5b:51991ambosuno0, I am guessing that that young woman who received the collection felt happy by receiving those, happy by your act. She probably learned something at some depth into herself from receiving that from you about releasing attachment and about generosity and it wouldn't be surprising if she gave some similar kindness or sacrifice in her future life.

You mention 'amount' as a way of keeping score - I had an uncle who was fairly successful as a business man and investor - he used to say a similar thing - that "it's not the money itself, it's a yardstick to how well you are doing in life." Something like that.

Yeah, with those amounts of money, if there weren't the runaway competitveness and variety of symbolic meanings and implications to accumulation, giving some away doesn't seem like such a handicap - to say the least. Ahh - the greed of man - a venerable and timeless topic.
Re: sports & spirituality, 22 May 2008 01:19:53 GMTee28e699-b6ce-41f9-9b68-f4b3d2b14a5b:51975markevans0 other IN dialog on sports is the Shaun Phillips one. He talks about all his fellow weight lifters acting like children and how seeing them motivated him to work on his consciousness as well as his weight lifting.Re: sports & spirituality, 21 May 2008 20:39:56 GMTee28e699-b6ce-41f9-9b68-f4b3d2b14a5b:51941schalk0

Yeah Ambo:

You always speak the truth and it is appreciated.

Material reality is a real concern for most of us and for most of us we try to accumulate a base that goes beyond what we really need to survive and support the important non-material work of life.

But there comes a point where you have so overwhelmingly much capital that you could never possibly improve your life to any appreciable degree compared to the massive amount of improvement you can provide to many other lives.

How many bowling alleys can you put in your mansion? How many cars can you drive? Etc.

I am thinking back to a time about 20 years ago. I was left a big coin collection (Morgan silvers, mercury dimes, etc.) in a will. The total value was about $2,500. The biological daughter of the guy who died was hurt by this. So one day I brought the entire safe over to her house and gave it to her, coins and bills and all. I just decided, I don't need it and she feels strongly about it. It ain't that hard to just give something to someone else.

I am absolutely confident that if I had $87 million dollars I would do the kinds of things that I am wondering why Tiger and Michael Jordan and A-Rod are not doing.

At a certain point, doesn't one have to look in the mirror? Maybe at the $50 million point?  

What it comes down to is the same awareness that athletes have of status within their sport. Every golfer knows if he is in the top 10 on the money list. Number 8 feels superior to number 28.

Similarly, every athlete knows roughly how they stack up with endorsements. They talk about it. Every golfer knows that Tiger is making a mint off of Nike. The competition is still alive - just translated over to a new form.

So, it makes no sense to start providing medicine to SE Asia.  

This is their world, a world of competitition. And to have meaningful competition, you have to have rules that govern the score keeping. And in the world of pro athletes, score keeping is done through digits followed by 6 zeroes. You might as well cut off your foot as give away money.  

My strong sense is that this is the reason we cannot point to a single athlete or artist who has devoted the bulk of their capital toward the betterment of mankind. Some do better than others, of course. But in the end, the contribution is minimal.

Sorry, but as much as I enjoy watching and playing sports, I am very disappointed in the payback that athletes and entertainers give to society. And I am absolutely unprepared to buy into the Dave Meggesy suggestion that there may be higher levels of consciousness among athletes than we realize.


Re: sports & spirituality, 21 May 2008 05:04:12 GMTee28e699-b6ce-41f9-9b68-f4b3d2b14a5b:51792ambosuno0"What is the mentality or view of the world that prevents any of them from doing something like this?"

Hi, Schalk - I hope I'm not being too glibb in saying that that is the mentality and world view which most of us inhabit to a significant degree. Yes?

Though many people lead with their higher, more moral/ethical/socially constructive words and cognitions, when it comes to our attachment to stuff and objects that confer (and in the earlier or regressed aspects of ourselves, like magic for example, seem to contain and emanate) a sense and possibility of security, stimulation, power most of us are still in the thrall and the limited views of what might make us happy via these routes. There must be a number of variations on how we stay in orbiting dance around these images of security, stimulation, power, prestige and such and around these objects themselves that money can buy. I guess it's not for nothing that one of the primary post-freudian psychoanalytic schools is called "object relations". And who among us is really predominantly ready, has quite fully finished with and integrated the scintillating attraction, lure and seduction of objects; who among us is really free, for example, of the perfect tit, "the good breast", the yummy sensuality, the imagined opportunity for fullness that is greatness?

For those of us who may not have repressed or disowned these incessant invitations to apparent joy, who among us have found integrous ways of living in the midst of highly ready opportunity without actually acting those sensuous and imaginary desires out, and recognizing that as one begins to simply taste of the fruit of the tree, there are powerful impulses to taste again and again, and with innumerably creative elaborations of attempted desire satisfaction. Who successfully deals with all that? Who's going to let go of stuff before they have hit some trembling shockwaves in themselves or accidently had some insight? Maybe Oprah wanted very badly to be the richest self-made woman in the world, or tiger a billionaire, then more and more. And other variations, yes.

I suppose hence the various traditional religious and spiritual disciplines, as with Buddhism to try to live in these libidinous and rampant jungles called ourselves, educated and dressed to the 9's though we be. Though I be poor, I doubt that I'd be significantly different very rich, unless some more shifts happened. Just for the heck of it, Schalk, "And you?"

So this is still where my mind goes when I think of this - I can hardly imagine some giving much of their wealth away, short of some minor or major delusion. Yoh, ambo

Re: sports & spirituality, 20 May 2008 18:03:03 GMTee28e699-b6ce-41f9-9b68-f4b3d2b14a5b:51707schalk0


It is really amazing to me. Think of how many performers and athletes and even businessmen there are who make mountains of money. It is just so rare to find one of them who translates the bulk of this money toward making immediate and specific differences in the lives of people.

Bill Gates has done a lot with his philanthropy but it seems that the percentages he is making available are kind of paltry compared to what he could do and what he really needs.

You would think that if any of these people were really plugged into consciousness at healthy green or above, they would be convinced that the right thing to do is share their wealth in meaningful ways with the world.

Imagine if someone like Michael Jordan started a combined high school-university with lodging and meals and medical care (the whole package of existence) that provided free tuition to students from homes with gross income under $20,000 a year. And he applied 75% of his assets toward it and challenged every top tier athlete to do the same. It could be revolutionary.

He could even make it a sports and arts training facility combined with academics where he enters into contracts with the adult students (over 18) whereby they agree to work hard, meet standards, and then produce works of art that are owned by the institute for a number of years or share a percentage of their earnings for a number of years.

Tiger Woods could adopt an entire country like Bangladesh and provide medical facilities and schools.

What is the mentality or view of the world that prevents any of them from doing something like this?

Re: sports & spirituality, 20 May 2008 06:17:29 GMTee28e699-b6ce-41f9-9b68-f4b3d2b14a5b:51625ambosuno0, I think you are right that it is rare for professional athletes to use their wealth in the way that you are suggesting. I don't know if it is more or less rare than in the general population where there is acquisition of wealth. I suppose that you are highlighting this tendency towards more of the same attitudes towards money because of this recent talk that suggests that there is a connection between sports and spirtuality, particularly 'higher stages of development'.

Except maybe along a line or two, I don't think that I am significantly more developed, and particularly not more philanthropic, generous, or sharing than the average star or ordinary Joe and Jill. Really. Teal - no way! 2nd tier - no way! Because of this I don't seem to expect much in the way of signs of higher development from others either.

I'd have to read more about Wade's church purchase to know if it's as wierd as it sounds - holy moly. Unless he bought just the building, I didn't think we did things like that in this country. I have some friends and the wife is Japanese; her father owns a working church/temple/congregation, I think, in Japan - that sounded pretty strange when I first heard of it.

yoh, ambo

Re: sports & spirituality, 19 May 2008 23:49:01 GMTee28e699-b6ce-41f9-9b68-f4b3d2b14a5b:51591schalk0


I have been thinking more about the notion of the elevated consciousness of athletes.

Today we see that D. Wade bought his mother a church! It is being touted as quite an unusual gift.

And then I am thinking, among all of the athletes who are making $10 or $20 million dollars a year, where exactly is the evidence that they have a living concern for all of mankind, let alone the members of their own tribe?

Tiger Woods could start a university, fund top notch professors, and educate 20,000 people a year for free.

Tom Brady could relieve the physical suffering of 10,000 people a year.

Alex Rodriguez could buy a cable channel and broadcast nothing but truth to millions.

It seems the best we can find is efforts to lift up individual communities, provided that plaques and recognition go to the donor.

At Teal, you would think at least one person would be making an enormous impact by directing his or her massive pile of capital toward humanity's woes.

Where is the evidence in terms of personal commitment that any athlete has evolved beyond orange?


Re: sports & spirituality, 12 May 2008 19:22:16 GMTee28e699-b6ce-41f9-9b68-f4b3d2b14a5b:50386ambosuno0

A quicky reply from work, Schalk.

Yeah, I agree with a lot of your thoughts about sports and their value. Apparently they have been necessary for us humans to express both our needs for play and apparently survival, maybe two significantly different threads of development from pretty early on in us. Professional sports seems to lose a lot of the truer play aspect because of demands on winning and such.

Did you ever read John Irving - he wrote The World According To Garp and Hotel New Hampshire. He had themes of wrestling weaving through several of them.

Good day, ambo

Re: sports & spirituality, 12 May 2008 18:08:10 GMTee28e699-b6ce-41f9-9b68-f4b3d2b14a5b:50383schalk0


You have voiced a lot of valuable ideas. What I really appreciate is that you have used the most appropriate words to vector in on notions that a lot of us (I might even say everyone) have barely scratched the surface of. You might think about writing more in this vein.

I wish Ken Kesey had written a great American novel about wrestling. He was just the man to do it.

Your intimation that it might be wise to look closer at individual sports is likely right. The term "athlete" is almost useless in trying to go down the road we are staring at.

Just from a cognitive standpoint, let me tell you a story. My cousin is a media celebrity of sorts. He has had occasion to get to know and spend quite a bit of time with professional athletes in a number of different sports. He told me something that really struck me. He said there is a really big difference in just the level of dialogue with football, basketball, and baseball players.

Football players generally seem to be the most intelligent. They have college degrees and must master fairly complex systems to play professional football. From just a lower right perspective, they are leagues ahead.

Basketball players are also by and large very intelligent, most of them have college degrees, but the culture of the NBA is such that it is hard to get them to talk in a rational way about what they do. We generally hear very little that is useful from an NBA player.

But baseball players are by and large a pretty rough bunch. A lot of them come right out of high school, from the little towns across America and the Dominican Republic, etc. (I'm a small town guy and know these guys very well), and enter the minor league systems, and they generally come across as very blue collar labor types who happen to be highly skilled in baseball. But they are no different in most ways from someone who is classic amber or red.  

There is talk of Manny Ramirez engaging in visualization. I am wondering what that is supposed to indicate about his level of consciousness? It is entirely consistent for Manny to visualize hitting a ball hard, to then step up to the plate and do it, and to then sit down. We want so much to find evidence of higher development in sports stars, but I am seriously wondering.

So, what do you think of Kevin Johnson, the former NBA guard, running for mayor of Sacramento? I honestly wonder how much of leadership in government depends on a finely honed balancing of wisdom and the art of government, and how much can be simply attributed to standing face to face with an opponent and sensing where s/he is weak and how to exploit it, much like KJ would do when he was getting ready to steal a ball.

I really feel that we have failed to insist on a high constellation of attributes from our government leaders. We don't even know where to start in assessing candidates.

Regarding levels of consciousness among athletes, I sense that we may explain more of what they report simply by looking closer at altered states of consciousness, rather than higher stages of consciousness.

Anyone who has participated in competitive sports has wondered as you have, "how much drive is raw libidinal, deeply constitutional bioenergetic, aggressive." Is there really something lasting and significant about the quality that makes one athlete excel, or is it purely an animal function?

My sense is that with most high profile athletes it is largely a function of raw libido and aggressive drive, but there comes a point at the top of the game where the ranks are divided between those who try to function solely on that raw libido, and those who add development in one or more non-kinesthetic lines.

For example, how different is Tom Brady on the kinesthetic line from 100 other pro quarterbacks? He is not particularly strong or fast, but he has honed his game cognitively to a point where he makes few mistakes.

Look at Saddharu Oh, the Japanese home run legend. He was a good player, but not great, until he began working with a sword master who taught him spiritual practices associated with Budo and Zen. This elevated spiritual line allowed him to function routinely at a higher level of refinement kinesthetically. Yet, from a values line, he would seem to be bright red.

Look at Tiger Woods. Here is a young man who has been trained from age 3 on how to apply his emotional energy into an almost superhuman focus. Look at all the times when he has been near the end of the final round matching strokes with another golfer and when the emotional pitch was at its highest, he has entered a zone of focus and made unbelievable shots where almost any other really good golfer would have been warped by their emotional energy and made a bad or average shot. And yet, from an interpersonal line, Tiger would see bright red.

It might be useful to say this:

- when we hear of unusual modes of consciousness in athletes, we might begin by looking at an explanation in altered states; and,

- when we see one athlete with roughly approximate raw physical skill routinely doing something in a highly refined way to gain the decisive edge, we might look to a particular non-kinesthetic line to see if they have had effective training there to gain elevation;

- but we should look closely across multiple lines before we start ascribing higher levels of consciousness to athletes.

What I find interesting is that often, in a sporting competition, when the match comes down to a decisive moment, like a shoot out in World Cup soccer, or a last second field goal in football, or a putt to win the tournament on the 18th green, it is often the least complex, most animally-attuned person who is able to focus and succeed.

Doesn't it often seem that the winner is the personal who should not have won?

So, I am thinking, what do we suspect about the nature of sport that causes us to be so fascinated with it? I sense that the magenta core of our being suspects that the "gods" favor the successful athlete. In a sense, we suspect that they are attuned to the principles that the gods will ultimately reward, on death, or in the hereinafter.

I look at the Hall of Fame phenomena. In a very real sense, it is a pantheon of the gods. The idea is that those who enter are guaranteed special dispensation by whatever God or gods ultimately tip the balance. Anything less than this, and it wouldn't really matter to us, would it?

You know, an interesting book to write would be to take the perspective of heaven or the great eternal Elysian Fields and to show all of the deceased members of a particular Hall of Fame abiding there. The discussions among the gods and the members would revolve around the qualities that got them there, and also, most provocatively, the qualities that kept certain competitors out.

My sense is that such a book would strike so many chords of unrecognized truth!

Want my theory on the steroids controversy? In essence, the players who use steroids and accumulate grossly successful statistics are cheating the gods and they are cheating other worthies. They are cheating their way into the Elysian Fields, and more importantly, they are bumping non-cheaters out of contention for entry into Heaven.

The real victim of Barry Bonds is not Henry Aaron. It is the guy like Jim Rice or someone who just keeps getting nudged out due to the superior statistics of Barry or those like him.

The real challenge for all the sports fans is to start finding a way to talk about and find value in sports without reference to pure statistics.

I listened to a baseball game the other day and was astounded at home many references there were to pure statistics. At the end of the day, you knew nothing about the player as a person, or his qualities, or his discipline, or his family.

And last night I was watching a show about the Science of Sports. Machines are set up to measure pure animal instincts - how fast someone can get off the line of scrimmage or how fast he can react to a tennis ball shot at his face. Aren't we descended to the level of ranching? Athletes are herded into the corral (combine) and poked and prodded and timed to see how valuable they are? The ranchers of course know that we will then translate these superior animal skills into special dispensations from the gods.

In many ways, our fascination with sports provides an opportunity for us to see the bad assumptions and areas of ignorance in us, don't you think?

Finally, I really doubt there are any genuinely 2nd Tier professional athletes. I just don't see it happening, knowing what I know about the demands of competition. The assumptions you have to make about reality and the identity of your opponent and the mind set you have to adopt to "beat" someone at anything seems wholly inconsistent with 2nd Tier awareness. But, there may be 2nd Tier sword masters, I don't know.


Re: sports & spirituality, 12 May 2008 16:53:39 GMTee28e699-b6ce-41f9-9b68-f4b3d2b14a5b:50380ambosuno0, Schalk -

I'm not sure I'll have enough time to do your question justice this AM, but I wanted to reply here, at least.

That's a nifty memory about the very big line drive against the daunting opposition. I like how the boy in you was very tuned in to it all, including the equipment - letting us know it was a big thick handled Nellie Fox model - I tuned in.

Yes, I follow your question about transcendence and wondering and doubting how common it really is in professional sports. I have a few questions that come up and maybe an impression or two. I think that you are asking a very big question(s). It seems that a response could become very complex, entire books could explore your question, if someone took it on - hey, maybe you, you've some fine writing skills.

I'm wondering if some sports would draw from certain populations that are a little more pre-disposed to elevating along certain lines, have a head start, embody some consonant values for altitude in more areas of their lives and games. I wonder how big a factor that really is - maybe less than we think - or more. I'm thinking, now, that some sports because of the population and various other factors, being team or individual being one, wouldn't have slightly more psychic room for transcendence, slightly fewer or less strong obstacles, temptations and other distractions.

You mention kinesthetic as a for sure (in my opinion), and even that 'line' would have sub-lines of development. A football center will become kinesthetically advanced in certain areas, a Jai Lai player, others. What kinesthetic demands get responded to and developed in golf, jockeying a high-speed beast around a track or on a polo field,  pure sprinting to get to the finish line first. So there seems like quite a lot of variability kinesthetically in terms of what gets developed, but they all as competitive activities must drive one's drive, will, and wanting, as you say, to put the ball in the hoop. This drive and will line may be developed into a sweet spot for some professional sports, and yet be a hypertrophied trait for other activities, other types of work and social settings.

I am wondering how much drive is raw libidinal, deeply constitutional bioenergetic, aggressive and how much is more cognitively arrived at, assisted and developed over time. Obviously some kids have gifts of will power or social play or leadership tendencies from the get go, and very quickly these temperamental and biological starting givens get merged and woven with social circumstances.

I suspect that psychosocial development requiring cooperation and collaboration could develop individuals to further extents in team sports, though there are still other factors impinging on this development and there is probably some sort of bell-shaped distribution curve of each of these various and many aspects, like openness to learning and readiness for learning and malleability and so on. But really, does the individual runner, who is part of a larger tam, or not, have significantly less social skill that will allow him to excel in a more normal job than, say, a basketball center within a triangle offense who's job is to be highly attuned to the other four team mates and other five opponents on the floor. Is the social attunement so specialized that we couldn't really generalize to say that one's psychosocial altitude has changed much? In terms of leadership, it seems that one's probably prior extensive gifts are developed considerably as a Steve Nash, a Magic Johnson, maybe a Tom Brady, and so on. Again, are these tasks and driving demands generalizeable enough to suggest some high altitude has been achieved.

What if certain skills are hypertrophied, putting them out on another margin of a bell-shaped curve of normalcy, such that they can't function so well in many other work and social settings. I don't know - this topic seems huge and complicated.

Why couldn't a professional athlete develop quite highly along an aesthetic line? They have enough money to explore and learn.  Some professional athletes have quite artfully ensembled outfits, though their choices might not coincide with mine.

There are many professional athletes who give money, time, and endorsement to situations and causes. There is probably a lot of variability of where those impulses come from in them that relate to ethics/morals. I'm guessing that there are a number of these athletes that in terms of their philanthropic actions and expressed thoughts who would score quite high on some related scale of a psychograph.

I agree with you about the possibility that Jordan and Bryant and others aren't as much developing their domination powers as much or more than their respectful engagement of the adversary power. Everything is always a deeper and more interlinking question, it seems.

As Ken points out, second tier COG's are pretty rare, statistically, in the general population. How are they in professional athletics and post-athletics? Geesh, and the further parsing and linking questions continue.

You may be right, Schalk, about wrestlers and what they learn and embody. Again, there must be a lot of variability in what brings people to the sport and what lines get developed in the process. I like 'hearing' you say "really sane people". It may be that, like any intense demanding sport or activity, if you are too insane, or too disorganized or uncontrolled in some facet of the sport that is important, you get washed out or quit. I feel compelled to say that I am not a good example for what you are picking up of the sport - I think that I may be getting saner than I have ever been, but back then, I think, I was wound awfully tight and barely kept the disorganized impulses all together. Wrestling helped me, as did a few other circumstances along the way, but when my "good boy" repressions started to release, I was barely in control and out of control in action and mind. This is my story of the moment. Thanks, though, Schalk - I like those words.

Going back to your, 'what really about spiritual development in sports?' Boy. Big question. I do think that a lot of very good development in "1st tier" happens, and for many of us that has been very important. Lateral development is probably important and necessary for us people, too, before we are ready to consider, to include, to integrate and transcend, yes? I think that even having to learn through blunders about great gobs of money, sexual opportunity, freedoms and social power and domination, may be precursor to readiness for greater change, yes?

What are you thinking about all of this, now? ambo