The more we know the more fully we trust. for we shall feel utter certainty that we and our dead are alike in the hands of perfect Power and perfect Wisdom directed by perfect Love.

- C. W. Leadbeatr

Or ever the silver cord be losed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to God who gave it.

- Ecclesiastes (the Bible)

kool info on the 'hypnogogic' state.

at any rate, something reminded me today of the times i used to coax someone - a hard working familly man- to  reading The Tibetan Book of the Dead - Liberation, through Understanding In The Between...which he did some, and said it made sense and concluded "i'm here and if there is such a thing as reincarnation, then i will do it again.". true enough, not like i could argue common sense. after all, human birth is way 'privledged  accomplishment' already, no? 

Okay People, (especially all who were in on the conversation in the first few pages of this thread),

I just found out a very interesting piece of information.

The "twilight sleep" state -the state between ordinary waking and ordinary dreaming consciousness is called the hynogogic.

According to Ken in IS, the hypnogogic state is pure Alpha waves.

It is just this state, that the visionaries of Medjugorje are in when visiting with the Blessed Virgin Mary -"3D" "apparition." (see info on Mother Mary Thread)

"What EEG testing showed was that before the apparition, the brain waves are predominantly beta rhythm interspersed by alpha rhythm (normal conscious attentiveness[typical waking state]). At the start of the apparition, the beta rhythm remains for a short time and then is replaced by an almost uninterrupted alpha rhythm[hypnogogic]."

Although, it is pure alpha-hypnogogic in the also scientifically demonstrable waking state. (so i.e. they are not falling asleep or asleep.)

"Electroencephalographic (EEG) tests confirm that the alleged visionaries' brain functioning is normal and healthy. EEG tests rule out the possibility of epilepsy or psychotic hallucinations. The alleged visionaries are not asleep or dreaming either. Hysterical neurotic reaction or pathological ecstasy is also ruled out by the EEG testing."

Isn't that interesting? (i.e. seeing as that state kept coming up earlier)

So, . . . maybe . . . look for your 3D apparitions in the hynogogic state.

red rose and ....years ago,  it was one of those astral-dream experiences, which compelled me to call my radio-host mystic teacher for her feedback...very brief thing  - blissfully  spinning on air , face up arms streached out  - "where do you think you get your power from?" - male voice asked - "where do you think all power comes from?"  , i said.

Ann advised me do a visual meditation exactly as it happened , only this time no talking back "offer the man a red rose" .

and i got it!. sometimes later, i was dancing 'on air' and dared a guy man to join me... he did!:)

h

was it a couple of weeks , or there abouts?....a vision of  a red rose bloom with stem...she did see it 'ingraved' on her right (face)  temple...a vivid-ly beautiful red rose.

h

and speaking of 3D aparitions, or whathave you.

feels pretty matter-solid to me, when (at times) even if for the briefest of moments i am able to hear (his) breath and hear his familliar speaking voice, i can say i am not halucinating. come to think of it more than once a polish - not familliar -  speaking (man's) snuggly close voice whispered sweet nothings....too.

sure felt soild n' real the hand which carrassed my face the other week when i was sobbing me' lil' heart out....the moment's sweet memory lingers and will always in my Forever-heart.

h 

...and what a beauty that Rose is Mascha ! - thank You!

come to think of it the rose and I are not at all 'seperate', right? at the energy level its atoms vibrate , my body matter atoms vibrate too, tho at different 'speed-resolution' - no one  looking at our vibrations under a powerful telescope would be able to differentiate one from the other and say,  'oh that's helen's atoms, but looki there and there's the rose, those waves and quirks or wotever look kind of redish, eh?' one could even say Spirit took a peek at its rose-self for a moment then disapeared.

and speaking of fragrace-filled room..it happens. i have had in dream states smelled foul, as well the most beautitious fragrances, but that was very diffrent...some weeks back, i awakened suddenly ... the room was filled with THE most incredible perfume ever! it lingered for a bit. and i was amazed! i mean hearing music , which i did this last nite too, seems pretty 'normal' in comparison , no?

h

Ken's latest chapter of Integral Spirituality goes into the postmodern revolution and also why and how it is still largely ignored. When I reading, finally, a bunch of lightbulbs went off about the implications for "3 D" apparitions and such as being co-constructed by the consciousness of the viewer or experiencer. Someone stated it well above and I have to go back and check. At any rate, I may even start a thread or just drag this one off on a tangent for a while before getting back to the main topic. So . . . sends some hopes for that and keep a look out.

I mean, basically, it is the notion of "The Myth of the Given." I grasp it, but . . . I still get some cogs stuck here and there, especially going into transpersonal realities.

But, wow.

Helene:

yah, learning from all sorts of different sources...come to think of it all 'different sources' have their root-thoughts planted in the same  Garden... one same Spirit-essence, so we can even say, I am listening, learning from I, no?

(Grandfather in a vision)
......he rushed up to a rose bush and (with bare hand) to fetch a red rose for moi:) - "he can do that without feeling the thorns"

h

yah, learning from all sorts of different sources...come to think of it all 'different sources' have their root-thoughts planted in the same  Garden... one same Spirit-essence, so we can even say, I am listening, learning from I, no?

and speaking of dreams n' all  things soul-full....when my daughters much loved grandfather was in the hospital with a very serious heart condition, he begged the familly to take him home .. which wasn't possible. his wife distrought , not healthy herself, couldn't  possibly look after him (bed pan an' all-hooked up to IV and what not) ...he tried to at night to  sneek out  a couple of time ...and cursed mightilly when restrained. daughter besseached granmother to bring him home , she was willing to stay at their house with a 3 month old baby son...."i'm afraid to sleep thinking he will die if i do"....was her refrain...after few days of this , back in the hospital he was - not for long.

and everyone felt guilty...especially his first born granddaughter, whom he sometimes called by my name. big heart-ed man he was, and everyone liked him. shortly after his passing she had a lucid dream, which she said "that was real!" - granpa showed up, everyone was in accept for her sister.."i grabbed the phone and told her get over here fast!, grandpa is here!" ...his loved ones around him ... LOVE ..I'm pretty sure she mentioned " bright light".

once their grandmother shared he hugged her so tight she could still feel it upon awaking and was afraid "he wants me with him" - and we talked about 'he wanted to show you how much he loves you'. she agreed. 'all the snapping and fighting was silliness, things would have been different if he came back'

come to think of it...all smilley , looking at me ...he rushed up to a rose bush and (with bare hand) to fetch a red rose for moi:) - "he can do that without feeling the thorns"

h

Helene:

dear bovinely mine M....heck, if i noticed your 'snaping' ...'fraid of being judged by oh so integrally PURE -ONSE ? get over it!

 -  oh, but  you did already! alritiithen;.........................
......... i did, in time, learn - 'serious' - doesn't mean   'straight face of one who is learned, respected  and proper to boot'. or something .

dear bovinely mine M....heck, if i noticed your 'snaping' ...'fraid of being judged by oh so integrally PURE -ONSE ? get over it!

 -  oh, but  you did already! alritiithen;(

and speaking of reincarnation, lepers and guided 'past life' meditations....when i looked down i couldn't see shoes , what i did see was a frilly , beautiful white dress with a blue sash...."was i rich ?" - didn't fit somehow . one woman gasped loud when i said   "blue ribbon" in -share time...'if i saw myself a leper it would have been more palpable/probable/believable'   - thus i told my teacher...but there's more which didn't fit the garden -like setting / feeling ....the part about seeing bunch of  black clad, 'serious'  looking men seated at the  table.

i did have an explanation of sorts , which went somt. like 'i was always silly frilly, but am not now'.

HA! if i care my analysis turned out to be  nilly-silly :(

i did see in-time "blue ribbon" - our blue etheric light body. i did, in time, learn - 'serious' - doesn't mean   'straight face of one who is learned, respected  and proper to boot'. or something .

h

h