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For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

Last post 5 hours, 24 minutes ago by tamgoddess. 155 replies.
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  •  03-01-2007, 11:20 AM 19812

    For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    The following letter got sent out a couple of days ago to some people who are members here at I-I. No, not everyone got them, because, well, they just don't care what most of us think. It appears that you need to be at a certain membership level in order to get this offer.

    Don't get me wrong. I understand that they need to give special perks to people who are significant contributors. But opinion surveys? Really? Is it so important to restrict feedback from the paying membership? I have long known that there was a basic problem with I-I and their business plan. They've made the same mistake that so many businesses (and politicians) have made, ignoring their base. That's you and me, folks. Those of us who really don't have any extra money who still pony up 10 or 15 bucks a month because this is something we care deeply about. But nope, they don't want to know what you think. Hand over the cash and shut the fuck up.

    Okay, so this is my survey. Please answer here. What is your membership level, and did you or did you not get this survey?

    I have been struggling with sending a post I wrote from my heart about how I-I is run, and struggling with canceling my membership. I'm going to rewrite that and include it below in another post.

    Oh, and “Member Delight?” Yeah, that phrase makes me want to puke. Look at the state of the forums. Look at them laying off via email the only person at all of I-I who ever gave a shit about the rest of us, Nomali. And look at the fact that they said they needed to do this for financial reasons, and then they turn around and advertise for four new management positions.

    This place doesn't need any more incompetent management, Ken! It needs a bloody decently paid staff to run the bleeding thing!

    And in case you're wondering, this is my highest self, and she's pissed as hell.

    Whether you agree with me or not, go take the survey and tell I-I exactly what you think. I can log on to take it, and will do so. I don't know if everyone can.


    Dear Friends,

    As part of the initiatives we announced in mid-February, Integral Institute is launching its new Member Delight commitment.  Member Delight describes our personal dedication to providing outstanding and delightful interactions with our members.  We have even set up a new department at Integral Institute called Member Delight, which reports directly to the CEO and acts as an advocate for member needs, inquiries and comments.  We believe that our Member Delight commitment is at the heart of our Integral service ethic, so we’re making it easier than ever to talk to us, add and cancel services, make comments or tell us how to improve.

    But that’s not enough!  We’re eager to know more about improving our approach to the delivery of Integral content, practices and community.  So we need your help by participating in our Member Lifestyle survey.

    Five survey participants will win a one-hour group conference call with Ken Wilber and five will win a free Integral Life Practice Starter Kit.  The selection will be made March 15.

    The survey is 19 questions and will be kept totally confidential.

    Please take a few moments to complete this survey so we can make changes to better serve you.

    Warmest regards,
    Huy Lam, Chief Development Officer

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  •  03-01-2007, 2:42 PM 19829 in reply to 19812

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    Hi Liz,

    In response to your survey:

    I'm a $20 a month member.

    Yes, I received  the survey.  

    I don't understand how any of the questions depict a "Lifestyle Survey" and "Member Delight" made me chuckle, in that they can't even update their "What's New" page on I-I with current offerings for Integral Naked...current listing 2-3 weeks old.  Philosophy and business often require different skill sets, even though some may believe their discipline places them in a superior position to do either/or and both.  

    As to who did or did not receive the 'survey', it could be a result of random sampling.  I'm certainly random.

    Take care.



    I had nothing but myself with which to create the world;
    Out of myself the world was made.
    E.J. Gold, 1978
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  •  03-01-2007, 2:58 PM 19830 in reply to 19829

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    Thanks, Michael.

    Could be random, though it's not likely, IMO. I'm a $15/month member, and of the four (so far) that I know about, the two who got it were 20 bucks or over.

    And yes, the survey was pathetically geared toward what they want to hear. It would be, however, supremely ironic and delightful if I won the free ILP kit after taking the survey subversively.

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  •  03-01-2007, 4:29 PM 19831 in reply to 19830

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    I pay $35 bucks and I didn't get one -but I also had no problem simply clicking on that link and doing the survey without signing in . . . which is weird. I also didn't get the chance to finish it, so perhaps that has somethig to do with it . . at any rate, if it's only for higher paying members then I have been left out -so far.

    It's probably random sampling or a process of only sending it to so many people at a time.

    Of course, if we had some response from I-I staff about this, we wouldn't be here debating it now would we.

    I wonder how long it will take . . .. if ever . . .

    ?Smile [:)]?

    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  03-01-2007, 5:17 PM 19835 in reply to 19831

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    It doesn't really matter, does it?

    A random sample??? How clueless can an organization BE? Hierarchy existed on this forum, a natural one, to which everyone was invited. All they had to do was send the survey to, say, the top 200 or so posters on the forum. Or 500 or 50, or whatever. Random is stupid.

    I was a moderator on this forum, and I didn't get the survey. It does not take a degree in marketing to know that they've completely missed the point, yet again.

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  •  03-01-2007, 5:41 PM 19836 in reply to 19812

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this


    There is so few transparency than you may write each day, as often as you wish about what you like or dislike on this forum.  And you have direct access to the team for your comments by email, by phone, by letters, even directly if you wish. 

    I'm not here for a long time but I remark the two polemic came from you.  Curious. Are you volunteer to put the mess in the place?   Big Smile [:D] 


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  •  03-01-2007, 6:02 PM 19837 in reply to 19836

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    That's right, Martine. You haven't been here for very long.

    Who would you be more likely to listen to, someone with a few months' experience, or someone with a few years? I know what I'm talking about, and I have no need to prove it to you.

    Direct access? Sure. I can complain and have someone tell me they are working on it. It's not quite the same thing as someone actually doing anything, is it now?

    As for your last sentence, I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying. I'm not criticizing you. I don't even speak a second language. But can you honestly say that you understand all the nuances of this forum that have have unfolded over the past several years if you're not even very fluent in English, and you've been here such a short time? I don't think so.

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  •  03-01-2007, 6:26 PM 19839 in reply to 19812

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this


    I am a $20 member and I did get the survey via email.

    Personally I would have liked to see an "open" part of the survey where I could talk about things that wern't specifically brought up in the questions - but alas most of the survey was clearly made to create simple percentages and scales.

    I think I-I is relatively poor.

    I think that I-I's Vision is many tiers ahead of their bank account.

    I think its sad and unfortunate that in this world today, integral thinking does not sell. People are going to go to Whole Foods to buy food before they are going to spend their money on an organization that sells philosophical theories and intellectual maps. How then is the I-I going to support itself in the world? How is it going to actualize its vision? How is it going to pay its "employees"? If my $20/month is helping to keep I-I alive for now, then I am content with that. I am happy for the opportunity to contribute to a vision I believe in. I believe the seeds of world transformation lie in education (eg. Integral University). The achievements that I-I has already made are no small achievements, and they are not cheap. Poorly managed forums are such a small price to pay for what I-I is doing. I will continue to give them money and personally I expect nothing in return, and I don't mind being anonymous. I see I-I is still in its infancy - it needs our support right now.

    Even I-I as an organization needs to make its way up the spiral before it meet its own expectations, and ours.

    Greg T.

    d.o.g. is g.o.d. spelled backwards...
    ...So what is the opposite of non-dual awareness?
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  •  03-01-2007, 7:10 PM 19843 in reply to 19839

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    It was a mistake to focus on the survey. Really that was just the last tiny straw. It's a symptom, is all.

    Your post is reasoned and articulate. I could have written it myself a year or two ago. Unfortunately, it's wrong. I, too, gave them the benefit of the doubt over and over again. But I've been disappointed too many times to pretend anymore. I'm hoping for change, and anyone or organization can change if the motivation is right. I'm not attached to this all going badly in order to prove me right! If things really turn around and take off, I'll be thrilled.

    But it isn't just the forums. Nomali, a person who gave up her entire life and moved to a different country to work at I-I (mostly for free), was laid off in an email. This is not working up the spiral. This is a symptom of a very troubled organization. Unless things do change, you and I are throwing our money away every month.

    I know, I know. It sounds like sour grapes or my ego taking a spin around the block. I thought the same thing when I read about others who were disillusioned with I-I. But if I just go on pretending, then I'm allowing things to continue on as usual, and that would be wrong. Integral is too damned important for I-I to fail without anyone trying to raise a red flag.

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  •  03-01-2007, 7:31 PM 19844 in reply to 19837

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    I'm with Integral Naked since about 2004.  It's not so short Liz.  Sorry if my poor English cause difficulties to well understand eachother.  Please, tell me again if you don't understand what I try to say. 

    Your desire to be more involved in Integral Institute is good to hear.  Lately, with an other organization, we talked about that, voluntaries being not accepted in organization needing them.  Many reasons explain that.  Managing voluntaries requires a lot of time.  And the work imply a lot more of abilities and knowing than before.  Imagine in integral thinking.

    ... Direct access? Sure. I can complain and have someone tell me they are working on it. It's not quite the same thing as someone actually doing anything, is it now?

    Firstly, express your opinion is not necessarly a complaint. Secondly, answering a questionnary is even less complete than tell openly your comments.  It's my french opinion. Smile [:)]


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  •  03-01-2007, 7:43 PM 19845 in reply to 19844

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    Thanks for the clarification, Martine. But I was specifically referring to the forums, so I was the one who was not clear at all!

    I believe that the experience of those who have participated heavily in the forums is quite different than those who've been to seminars or who mostly joined IN/I-I for the content. My experience of the content is that it's excellent, and I said so on the survey. 

    However, responses to our repeated attempts at communication have been abysmal, regardless of who was in charge, or what the method of communication. This tells me that it's the organization that is deeply flawed, and not just me. Please respect that I speak from experience.

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  •  03-01-2007, 8:17 PM 19847 in reply to 19845

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    I do feel that sometimes stands have to be taken.  Acting nice and pretending everything is OK is not going to help I-I to carry out its mission.  I-I has limited resources, yes, and I want them to succeed - Liz and I, and others, have spent years trying in our various ways to help that happen - but driving good people away from the forums through mismanagement doesn't seem like a sound way to proceed, and making excuses for that doesn't seem very helpful either.  Countless crises have been mishandled with the result that the overall quality of the forum has gone down and down. 

    I personally find a huge disparity between the great quality of the audio and video offerings here - which in my opinion is well worth the money - and the chronic mismanagement of the forums.  If I-I is about to start up several new forums, I would hope that they would finally learn from the lessons of the past and avoid making the exact same mistakes yet again.  Or, if they are not going to do that, I would rather see them close the forums and suggest that people use zaadz for their forum community fix.   That would be a lot more honest than pretending to care about the forums (and possibly having themselves convinced), yet acting in a way that actively undermines them.  That is inauthentic, and harmful to the integral unfolding - which surely is what we all care about, or how did we end up here?

    C'mon, let's take care of the fundamentals.  Don't you know that tiers are not enough?

    spiral out,

    IIzaadz pod - - combines the best of I-I and zaadz. If you're turquoise and you know it, drop on by. :)

    "You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn
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  •  03-01-2007, 9:49 PM 19849 in reply to 19847

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    Hey guys,

    Here's what I posted on the Letter from Nomali Blog-posted again here, in the meger hope that it might increase the chances of it being read:


    The heading above this comment box says the words: What do you think?

    This implies either that Integral Institute is interested to know what I think, or at least interested in individual thoughts being shared in an online community.

    So, here is what I think.

    I would like to add to what Arthur has just so beautifully stated above.

    DEAR NEW I-I CEO (and/or President),

    Currently, 2% of the world’s population is at second tier. Only 0.5% at turquoise or higher. Which is to say, as has been said before, second tier, and especially turquoise is a very, very, very LONELY, and by default incredibly sad, place to currently be.

    Like many people, the absolute first indication of what this meant and that there was indeed OTHER PEOPLE, other human beings ON THIS PLANET with similar views, similar values, similar goals, similar aspirations, similar trials and tribulations, similar thoughts and slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, and similar frequent experienced glimpses (if not full on stability) of what this means, came upon reading the books of Ken Wilber.

    Though lauded all along by some, Wilber himself is no stranger to this loneliness . . .

    I will not belabor the point. WE NEED THIS COMMUNITY.

    Let me emphasize that again in a different way: We need this COMMUNITY.

    Honestly, I could give a RATS ASS about “products and services” the “look and feel” and “ease of use” of the multiplex . . . Sure, out of the 7 or so months I have been an IN Premier member I have only received about 3 CD/DVD’s in the mail . . . But I don’t give a rats ass about that.

    I don’t give a rat’s ass about I-I’s EXTERIOR QUADRANTS. I do and always have and always will continue to take the eventual maturation of that as a given, to eventuate beautifully in the coming of time.

    The UL (both zones) of I-I, too, are already taken care of –by Ken.

    But what is NOT being taken seriously, or not seriously ENOUGH is the LL of Integral Institute.  Or should I say, the LL that is formed out of PEOPLE connecting on a turquoise or second tier level from ALL OVER THE WORLD –making connections that otherwise would NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER be made, on these forums and in posts like this.

    I don’t give a rats ass about “my” UR/LR “products and services” . . . I give a rats ass about being able to FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE (or the last 17 long and lonely years) being able to TALK WITH OTHER INTEGRAL FOLKS. I give a rat’s ass about that LL MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE. I am a human being – I need to connect with other human beings.

    Exterior products and services can - come along and say it with me everyone! -simply such my dick!

    What kind of flatland orange freaking bullshit absolutizes exterior products and services? I mean this as sarcastically as possible in writting; Wuh-ow!

    Ken’s blog requested a TURQUOISE CEO. PLEASE, new I-I CEO, if you ARE turquoise STOP NEGLECTING THIS COMMUNITY.

    When I-I opened it’s virtual doors last June, what a joy what a delight. This place was hopping and on fire. And there were concerted efforts to BUILD COMMUNITY. Staff members were talking to us, there was that now long lost and forgotten “Member of the Month” feature, there was the wonderful “I-I What’s New” weekly blog which summarized the HUMAN LIFE on the forums. What a THRILL to see that WE –yes, that’s WE, WE, WE, WE, WE, WE, WE-were being FEATURED as “What’s freaking NEW at Integral Institute!!!” All my friends –these people’s thoughts and feelings and discussions and human interactions and lives and Spirits were What was new! at I-I.

    And then . . . gone. Over. Done.


    Well, it would be nice to actually be able to know or tell the full story but I don’t exactly know what that is. What I do know is that the moment that the last first official I-I CEO took the job COMMUNITY went to hell in hand basket. Five –nearly six-months ago this forum community died. And it was not a quiet death either. Just a death that went unnoticed or uncared for . . . which is exactly WHY it died. None of the problems that caused it have been solved. Nor has there yet been any hope of that.

    To add insult to injury the old interim CEO took it upon himself to FINALLY make some connection with the community (i.e. through the forums!!!) after he had been fired (one of the reasons for which in his own words was the criticism that he –and many staff-were too agentic and NOT COMMUNAL, to which I say, DUH!) and set about the lovely self absorbed process of essentially causing the schism of all schisms in this community and killing it once and for all for sure. Pivotal to STOPPING this was, indeed, Nomali who was the only person BRAVE enough to TAKE IT UPON HERSELF to protect I-I and Ken Wilber while HE was, literally, dying.

    One has to wonder what would have happened if things had been otherwise. In fact, quite frankly, please let me emphasize this as heavily as possible:


    All the former CEO could say was something to the affect of “Okay, I’ll shut up until Ken not sick anymore.”

    Enough. Here is my point.

    Dear New CEO (and maybe Ken too?),

    Where is the new paid position for overseeing the health of Integral Institute’s LL?

    We are supposed to be AQAL Integral here. Why then only 3 of the Four Quads getting so much attention?

    Does not that AQAL map, by default, tell us that NONE OF THE OTHER QUADS CAN EXIST WITHOUT THE OTHERS? Does anybody really hope to create a sustainable UR/LR without a healthy LL? As I have said the UL is taken care of.

    But the money for whatever “products and services” and infrastructure are ever going to be possible comes from US.

    Rollie, and sometimes other have attempted to reassure that we are valued and appreciated. And indeed, every scrap of acknowledgement we all (or at least everyone I know in that 2%-0.5%) eat that up and value it like gold . . .

    But it’s not enough.

    Someone needs to be paid to manage a healthy I-I LL, the ideas for which are all already there . . . but the management and leadership is not and has not been for far too long.

    How do you expect to foster an evolution of consciousness, without facilitating the bonding of a worldwide community-together? Please let me reiterate, this was already happening . . . and then it died. Not through our fault, but through Integral Institute’s as an organization.

    That, um, really sucks, ya know? Are we in this for real or what? Who in the hell, in the United States especially, needs more Exterior “products and services?” I don’t give a dingbat-donkey’s yin/yang WHAT they are. I NEED PEOPLE! I NEED HUMAN BIENGS! Wilber books are fun to read, but they don’t listen to or hear me when I talk. Recorded dialogs thill me to no end, but as far as COMMUNION don’t go very far.

    In fact, all that that stuff does is excite me and thus ISOLATE ME MORE AND REITERATE THE POINT THAT I LIVE A LIFE ALL ALONE!

    What do I need?


    And I can’t just now move to Boulder, nor can everybody, and nor should everyone have to!

    Seminars . . . too infrequent, and not everyone can attend. Concalls, WONDERFUL!!! But the same as above.

    It is the same with “Member services” and 1-800 numbers and all that jazz. That’s never worked for these problems in the past and nor should they because THOSE ARE ALL EXTERIOR UR/LR CONCERNS!

    Might I sound like a teenager for a minute, but Hello? A phone call to I-I member services is NOT going to fulfill my HUMAN NEEDS for connecting in a “we” fashion with other (0.5%) HUMAN BIENGS!

    We need I-I to take these forums seriously. We need I-I to CARE about this child’s malnourishment and . . . death! But as we all know, caring shmaring, we need Integral Institute to DO something about it. To care enough to ACT on it and DO something. We need I-I to value the burgeoning life of its own LL.

    P-L-E-A-S-E  PLEASE!!!

    As one final note, I would like to add this.

    If the new I-I CEO actually responds to this -and doesn’t wait until he is fired and is no longer working for I-I to give a rats ass about I-I’s LL- I will actually go outside, pick up a brick, eat it and then shit it out. At risk of serious damage to my Exterior insides, I will actually facilitate the literal shitting of a brick.

    If the new Phase II-III(?) infrastructure actually ACTS upon this, I will not only do that again, but I will video tape it and send it to I-I.

    I certainly hope for a response . . . . but something is telling me not to hold my breath.

    March 1, 2007 9:32 PM

    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  03-01-2007, 10:22 PM 19851 in reply to 19812

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    Hello Liz & co.,

    And now, a word from a Sponsor ($35.). I received and responded to The survey last night. Today I got my Membership packet. Tonight, I'm reminded that dissent was once called the highest form of patriotism ( though maybe as a glimmer of green in an orange crowd ).

    Stakes are always high. And never higher than when stakeholders are vividly aware of this. I get that there's enough real love in play here, on all sides of what is the object of "transparency", that change is imminent.

    Yet change is always imminent, until it occurs. My first thought on reading the new department title, Member Delight, was of a time when, in a monastery, we had the "theme" of Humor for a ninety-day intensive training. For some it was the most depressing three months they'd undergone. My second thought was that what Nomali provided the forums with ( a quality?) is probably not subject to commodification in an impersonal, operational formalization of qualities, service "goals", or p.r. posture.

    I'm going to wrap this up and take a look at what Elihu Root wrote on the merging of interests of labor and management.




    'takes all kinds.
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  •  03-01-2007, 11:06 PM 19854 in reply to 19812

    Re: For anyone who still wishes for transparency at I-I: they don't want you to see this

    Well, I don't want anyone to eat a brick, or was it shit a chair?  Anyway, not important ...

    I find the energy on the forums really great, and I did not appreciate how important the forum experience was to certain members' lives.  I'm happy to know about it, and I'd welcome someone bringing me up to speed on what can be done to improve the experience.  The messages on the board are confusing in this respect, and I'm not sure whether the forums wants more intervention from II or less.  In any case, I will be happy to implement whatever changes the forum participants want, as long as we can pull it off.  Just let me know what you need.

    As for Member Delight, it's unfortunate that members scoff at the notion, but nevertheless we'll continue to implement the commitment.  Commitment would not stand for much if we didn't take it seriously in the face of criticism.  I remember telling a Member Delight staff member this week that if he didn't take the commitment to our members having a truly delightful experience personally, that is, in a way that is a direct reflection of his own deeply-held personal service ethic, than he is in the wrong place.  But I don't believe in talking too much about what we're doing differently, or what we will do; actions count, words less so.  If you don't recognize something we've done as an improvement in your interactions with us, than whatever we did was irrelevant.

    As for the member survey, thank you to those who have spent the time giving us the feedback we were seeking; it is hard to know what people want without asking, so I thought we'd start there.  I apologize if it was not worded to some people's liking.  After having been a volunteer CEO for 2 months, it would not be smart for me to assume that I know what our members are thinking.  (Which is why I read the forums when I can.)

    Robert MacNaughton heads up the Member Delight department.  He can be reached at if you have any need that is not getting fulfilled.  If he can't resolve it he has instructions to give people my personal cell phone number.

    Warm loving regards,

    Robb Smith
    Interim CEO

    P.S. I hope this posts to the right place, I'm quite the novice on forums.
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