Multiplex: What's New | Site Map | Community | News My Multiplex Account | Sign In 
in Search

Comments on The Controller and The Skeptic

Last post 05-02-2007, 7:19 PM by pattye. 56 replies.
Page 1 of 4 (57 items)   1 2 3 4 Next >
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  •  03-23-2007, 3:36 PM 20998

    • nouributz is not online. Last active: 09-15-2007, 1:36 PM nouributz
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-04-2007
    • Posts 2
    • Points 55

    Comments on The Controller and The Skeptic

    Please join our discussion of The Controller and The Skeptic. All members of ISC are invited to join the conversation. If you are an ISC member, simply reply to this post with your comments. Not a member of ISC? Visit us and join now!
    • Post Points: 35
    • Report abuse
  •  03-23-2007, 7:50 PM 21004 in reply to 20998

    Re: Comments on The Controller and The Skeptic

    I find it somewhat humbling to hear that, when Genpo had evoked and received permission to speak to "the Skeptic", he, in that context, refers to the self which " trusts and loves the universe" as  a "naive, stupid, ridiculous self". Humbling, because I have found that "self" to be the one which has provided "me" the greatest traction into a grounding in purpose and service.

    Genpo's naming the guardians of a monastery, for instance, the Protecter and the Controler, has me wondering where these voices are for me. Hearing, in the ISC segment/session just prior to this one, that Genpo mentions the guardians as keeping those who belong in in, and those who belong out out, I recall the fluidity with which such a functional membrane remained permiable for me. An exception, I entered and exited the monastic environ with such regularity that the notion of "belonging" seemed irrelevent because it seemed to be a constant. In or out.

    Would it give me away more to admit that, in responding to my reputation at the time, I once refered to myself as "loose in the aggregates" ?

    ' looking forward to more from ISC...

    kcd 

     

     

     

     


    'takes all kinds.
    • Post Points: 35
    • Report abuse
  •  03-24-2007, 10:02 AM 21025 in reply to 21004

    Re: Comments on The Controller and The Skeptic

    remember it is the skeptic that says the self is naive, stupid and ridiculous .. other voices have other things to say about the self

     

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  03-25-2007, 3:07 PM 21070 in reply to 20998

    • jackhschneider is not online. Last active: 09-05-2007, 4:07 PM jackhschneider
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on 06-27-2006
    • Coral Springs, FL
    • Posts 11
    • Points 190

    Re: Comments on The Controller and The Skeptic

    All,

    I found it interesting that jealousy was singled out so strongly.  The antidote to jealousy is rejoicing in other’s good fortune. Jealousy really does help us identify our self cherishing and self grasping.  Whenever I identify jealousy in my mental continuum “flipping” it to rejoicing is always a big emotional relief.  Speaking as the jealous voice I am jealous of the controllers ability flip me!

    Bliss and emptiness,

    JackH Schneider

    • Post Points: 35
    • Report abuse
  •  03-25-2007, 6:38 PM 21074 in reply to 21070

    Re: Comments on The Controller and The Skeptic

    I was skeptical that I would find anyone here...but I have found three folks -- so there skeptic -- take that! Durwin Foster
    Durwin Foster, M.A.
    Doctoral Student, Counselling Psychology Program
    University of British Columbia
    Vancouver, Canada
    durwinfoster@gmail.com
    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  03-29-2007, 3:02 PM 21204 in reply to 21070

    Re: Comments on The Controller and The Skeptic

    Dear Jack:  I have heard that there is jealousyAND envy.  "The first is the way Genpo used jealous and envy means that we are not trying to reach a potential that we have when we see it in the person

    we envy.  Since this is off the top of  my head and I have not thought it through for some time, I want to check the dictionary or Thesarus on any distinctions.  And,kcd I wish someone would reply to your Post.  Jack maybe you can answer this.  Why didn't we get some nice crisp days this winter in Florida?    It used to be that we could count on that.

    And I am impressed that you can switch or "flip".  I understand the emotional release

    that you speak of and I am finding that as I grow up, I do not have to live as long

    with the havoc and nonsense as I used to.  However, that depends on what it is.

    I am really jealous of people that have time. That will always get me.  There are other things and there are other ways  to transmute.  However, I find Genpo's dialoug

    a great tool and I really care about where he takes that.  We think that NLP and Hypnosis are wierd sometimes, and it can be used for healing.  Words are very potent and powerful for me.  I can let myself go easily (I hope that is the healthy

    feminine rather than the Pushover) and Trust in what a teacher is using.  Then I go

    for the practice itself and it is only then that I begin to think about it that much.  This would make a good dialoug, I suppose.  Those are my patterns and I am ceretified in Hypnosis as used in healing and it is very simple in a way and gentle.  I am predisposed to "let go" for the teacher because of that also.  I do hope you can do something about the humidity.   Now if we can just get someone to flip that.  I must add, however that the flipping is also a form of self hypnosis..  We need to explore what is working for us and what does not.  Again, I say this over and over.  I guess I might make a quote for the bottom of the page.  " It is usually not either/or but both/and. " for me.     I am going to look at the map and find Coral Springs.  I used to know..  Thanks for your Post      Pattye

    And thanks Hallie, for helping get us some more space for these Posts!  Ihave not had a tantrum in a long time.  Simple things bring such Pleasure! 

    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  03-29-2007, 3:16 PM 21206 in reply to 21004

    Re: Comments on The Controller and The Skeptic

    Dear kdc:  I am going to give this a try.   I have found that there seems to be some sorts of nonsense that most of us are not bothered with.   We experience jealousy and other painful places less than another person or not much at all.  I have also been able to realize that gluttony (which is such an ugly word - brings up UGLY. has been my teacher.  Chocolate and IceCream.   Thank God it is not drugs.  Although I did smoke at one time.  I also experience Genpo's quote- that part of mySelf  trusting and loving the universe at times.

    However, there have been other times when I was over the edge and only in love with thinking that way.  I came home from a seminar once and was talking about it at the supper table.  Oldest son said,  "Sounds like a bunch of old people sitting around smoking dope and eating yogurt, Mom.  Re-entry was usually grounding.  Sometimes, I wanted to daydream more after being around that for long and other times I felt they were my teachers.  ( the family)    I used to think I had missed my calling and should have been a nun or a priest even  if that was out of my reach.

    I always enjoy your Posts.  The depth and the way you write.   Thanks Pattye

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  03-29-2007, 3:32 PM 21208 in reply to 21074

    Re: Comments on The Controller and The Skeptic

    Dear bigdaddy!  Great reply.   Smile.    I am sure that you know that Genpo also will, at times go over the other side of the   "Inner People" and ask us what value they have for us.  In your field, I imagiane you have to use that often.  the Skeptic.,

     

       I tend to trust too much.  I blame that on being an INFP.  That Percieving is what has me needing more info and then more.  If you invite me to your party next Wed.  I may say yes or hesitate.  Or I may cancel once I find out who is going to be there, what the weather will be like, what we are eating and wearing what we are going to do.  ON the other hand, someone with  J on the end- the Judging type will be there.  It is a vow and promise for them.  It is not that they are so Judgemental but that they can make quick decisions/committments.  I have to work on making Committments and still work on keeping them.  I try not to go overboard on any of this but the Myers/BRiggs (Jung) has always been helpful..  With emphasis on helpful, not an end all.  I clarified this for others, who may also know.

    .  Still, humor is always delightful.    Pattye

    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  03-31-2007, 10:44 AM 21312 in reply to 21206

    Re: Comments on The Controller and The Skeptic


    pattye, i would like to add to your reply to kdc. hopefully, i'm not just coming from the voice of the intellectual, the know-it-all!

    we have many voices, many selves. when we refer to the voice of the self, we need to ask just which self do we mean. the self who is loving and trusting, as referred to by genpo, sounds to me to be at odds with many of the other voices such as the controller, the protector and the skeptic. this self needs to talk to these voices and get their permission to be loving and trusting. else they will undermine its efforts. they can be quite devious in how they go about this so as to deceive the self and carry out their respective functions. when it talks to these other voices, it becomes possible to 3-2-1 them and integrate them into a larger, healthier, higher self.


    • Post Points: 50
    • Report abuse
  •  03-31-2007, 9:31 PM 21332 in reply to 21312

    Re: Comments on The Controller and The Skeptic

    Dear Ralph:   I am really pondering this whole area.   One of us needs to write out a personal experience of exactly what happens to us.  I do not mind doing that and I do not have time since I have little written in my journal to help me.  I worked with Shadow for so long via Jungian and I have some experience with forms of the dialouge.   And I have read a book by Harriet Lerner Phd.  called the Dance of Anger (also her other books Dance of Intimacy and Dance or Connection -I think).

    She will say something like this when two people are not connecting.   "He was not able to say to her that he was totally anxious and frustrated about looking like not being a very strong man, so he lashes out at her in what to her feels like he want to run her out of the room.  Lerner does not mention the Shadow.  However, she names

    anxiety and frustration when feeling weak.  This to me is another way of working on

    Shadow before we realize that it needs to be a real Practice in our life.  To me that is the main point. And what Catholic Confession could have been had they understood

    how much the psychological side of "sin"  (whatever that is) was important.  I read that the worst sin is the refusal to be Joyful.   So to sum it up, there seems to be much more to working with Shadow.  As I have said before it is the Big Mind Big Heart that appeals to me.  Because I believe in finding that in ourselves.  We do not know that enough.  And being Joyful comes easily when we do the work to see why

    we sometimes cling to suffering as a habit  or  familiar place to be.   And sometimes

    before that we may need just a day of rest.  Or play .  Or someone close and that opens another can of worms and naming it will take us somewhere different.  I just came out of a negative place and it took some real rest and Shadow work.  And some of my favorite foods used in a healthy way.   There can also be some real blocks in the muscles and someone can do Big Mind and just will not be able to

    for it.  Some good stretching before might take care of that.  I vote for any kind of body work before starting Meditation or Shadow.  "The Body Knows the REasons."

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  04-01-2007, 10:51 AM 21352 in reply to 21332

    Re: Comments on The Controller and The Skeptic

    dear pattye,

    it's funny, but it occurs to me that, while we've posted a number of messages to each other, we've never actually had a conversation. it might be because we are in very different places. for example, i don't feel i can respond directly and adequately to this last message of yours, because it's coming from somewhere i've never been. all i can do is say, well, here is where i am.

    but there does seem to be alot more to your message than the message of mine it was a response to. i was, perhaps, being somewhat defensive about the voice of intellect, which by itself is a very narrow, partial voice, but not a 'bad' one, i would argue, rather one we want to make good use of--one that we want to be functioning at its best.

    of course, we want to be able to step outside of it, and i was having some difficulty in this respect in that last message of mine, partly, i imagine, because the integral perspective, as i understand it, of what genpo is doing in the big mind process seems incredibly straight-forward to me, in contrast, for example, to your thoughts in the message i'm responding to.

    the integral perspective, or vision, has been described as the view from 50,000 ft. it in no way replaces personal experience, but it can provide us with a compass, an orientation for more meaningful, authentic experiences.

    it includes the body, by the way, and that's an important component of my ILP. but the body does not include it, just as the body does not include the mind. the reasons that body knows are bodily reasons and do not include mental reasons, whereas mental reason, as exhibited in healthy vision-logic, for example, does include bodily reason. bacteria are fully capable of bodily reason. humanity, in evolving beyond bacteria, has not given up that bodily reason. every cell of our Body posseses that same bodily reason, but included in a higher form of reason. it is my body that is typing out this message, guided, hopefully, by my mind.

    unfortunately, there seem to be two contrasting ways in which the concepts of body and mind are used. in addition to the developmental one i've used above, they are also used to designate the UL and UR. in this latter sense they are equivalent dimensions, co-arising in each moment of our lives. it was in that sense i inadvertently used them in the last sentence of the last paragraph, the point there being that we need both.

    that was the voice of intellect talking, and you've shown in your message that there's much more to life. yes! but let's not throw away intellect in our desire to embrace everything else.

    warmly,

    ralph

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  04-01-2007, 5:04 PM 21364 in reply to 21352

    Re: Comments on The Controller and The Skeptic

    Dear Ralph:  What you have written is very important to me.  This is something that I really need to have an answer to.   I have not felt defensive with your Posts at any time.   We used to say at the Jungian seminars that the for the Thinking types came  talk or lead the thing -to do the Thinking for the Feeling people.  That is just an attempt to give a metaphor as those two types are not really interpreted that black and white.    I fee strongly that you are so right about not understanding where I come from.   I want to know myself since this happens to me rather often.  However when I was in Psychotherapy with a very gifted man and also when doing a Blackboard course with another, who one day stopped having any thoughts at all, (one of the things that can happen to people while going toward higher altitudes or Enlightenment .  He still does not and he too is extremely gifted and what they both had in common was that they knew that people express things so differently that

    they could go to each form of speaking in a language that person spoke in.  Both had become pretty gifted in NLP and were also combining  quadrants without really having any direction.   I think we need a person on the staff like this and they are rare becasue so many NLP people got caught up in scandal or became very arrogant.

    KW gives them the nod in one of his books but I have not been able to find it.  It is just one sentence where he says, it is a very good "technique"  but that they sometimes thought they knew it all and there was more to working with people.

    Having said that much, I must go and get some new glasses at the drug store be-cause I have lost mine.  And I need to do a couple more things.  I hope I will get back early enuf to go through your Post and respond to anything else I can to help

    us get clear.  Actually both of these friends say this is one of the problems with communicating and that is the top thing on my list not matter where we are with

    all the other things.  Wars are caused as we have seen by someone who seems not

    to know how to communicate at all and will not if he does not want to.  Except with some practice and speech writers and bad jokes by making fun of others.  I esp

    need to do what I can because of my own family even tho in the struggle and with much love, we do have enough patience most of the time to figure out other patterns and signals etc.  However, it seems that each of the 7 of us in the core family are all pretty different.  This is one reason that I could not get totally fired up on one

    person's idea of how we should talk on-line.  However, it was very needed in the total scope of things.  What I am talking about is important also, I am pretty sure.

    I will be back.   Thanks for the reach.  That means a lot.   Later Pattye

    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  04-01-2007, 9:15 PM 21365 in reply to 21312

    Re: Comments on The Controller and The Skeptic

    Dear Ralph:   After getting back to this, I now feel that bringing in differences we have in communication-  alll of us and some of us more than others, may not be simple enough to get to the bottom of what you are asking me.  Not that it is so complicated, just not the place to start.   I  am not trying to make the intellect less at all.   Some of us go thru the portal of the body, feel the actual energy of the body first and then the meditaion or comes next.  That is one example.  However, I can drop into meditation when I am listening to or reading KW.  So I am not sure about much of anything now.

    Sometimes I do not understand a discussion that is too intellectual and if I know it is something that I want to know or I know intuitively that it is true , I will work until I get it.  Can you ask me another way or if you are leaving anything out, bring it up.

    There are differences, however, as we have heard by KW and the way patterns work for him and how he can keep a book in his head, remember, recall all information from years back.    That is really pretty mind blowing for me .  I can remember a conversation or an incident way back but it is not a ton of research and reading.   I will try Type 2 tomorrow and see what comes up over nite in the way of trying to understand more.  These subjects are just more interesting than Type 2

    but I have not forgotten.   Later Pattye

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  04-02-2007, 8:28 AM 21379 in reply to 21365

    Re: Comments on The Controller and The Skeptic


    dear pattye,

    this might be a situation of working to understand each other while accepting that we don't. i took the briggs-myer (?) test, on my own, about ten years ago. as i remember, i scored higher on feeling than thinking. what they characterized as thinking in over half of the questions, i guess, was certainly not what i do or would like to do. and that's a problem for me in conventional settings, where the kind of thinking most people do really turns me off.

    i also scored high on intuitive and low on judgmental, but i'm realizing that this, too, depends on the setting. in the green settings i often find myself in here in portland i become more judgmental, of necessity it seems. for example, one jewish woman i know believes that if we would just allow iran to become the world power it has as much right to be as we do, the world would be a better place. when i get a chance, i need to ask her about nazi germany. i've already asked her about the present leadership in iran, and she doesn't seem to be at all troubled by it: a lack of judgment, imo, although she can be very judgmental about american leadership, which she would see, i guess, as the exception that proves the rule that, of course, she isn't judgmental.

    later alligator,

    ralph

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
  •  04-02-2007, 9:05 PM 21395 in reply to 21379

    Re: Comments on The Controller and The Skeptic

    Dear Ralph:   I am so eager to respond.   I am worn out and fear I might write a

    crazy Post.   That woman sounds like she has that disease that KW talks about and there is no convincing.   She may be judgemental.and in that sense we are making judgements all day every day.  I understand it another way in the Myers Briggs and will get back to you tomorrow.   I feel that as Wilber says, she may have a mentality of a N.   I hate to keep saying that on these Posts since they are open to the world if they want.  Nazi is a strong word but I understand it the way he speaks of it. And the man across the street is very much that way and others around me are not so much but still trying to protect everything from everything .  They want a perfect world and would get rid of all the minorities, teenagers and maybe little children  and women.

    Kind of like the soup Nazi on Sinfeld but not funny most of the time.   Love Rules.

    After while, crockadile.   Pattye

    • Post Points: 20
    • Report abuse
Page 1 of 4 (57 items)   1 2 3 4 Next >
View as RSS news feed in XML
 © Integral Institute, 2006. all rights reserved - powered by enlight™ email this page del.icio.us | terms of service | privacy policy | suggestion box | help