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Dead Forever?

Last post 7 hours, 36 minutes ago by livingegg. 270 replies.
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  •  05-21-2007, 5:41 PM 23093

    Dead Forever?

    Okay, you know it's bad when "Most Active Users" read like this:

     

    Most Active Users

    1) tomneilson (2)

    2) leopardi (2)

    3) timelody (1)

    4) ambosuno (1)

    5) tamgoddess (1)

    6) edison (1)

    7) theoreticole (0)

    8) jimloving (0)

    9) zechs (0)

    10) giverner (0)

     

    Which is to say, it's not just that the most activity is from 2 posts, then 1 post but that then the lonely system starts pulling up names at random (obviously) for their monumental activity of 0 posts! in order to make a "top ten" of "most activity."

     

    It's funny. But it's a shame. There used to be a time when someone had to have at least a dozen posts in the last 24 hours to even make the list, and well over 20 to make the top of it-and only then for a few short hours.

     

    Gone are the days.

     


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  05-21-2007, 7:34 PM 23098 in reply to 23093

    Re: Dead Forever?

    I miss the liveliness of this place, too, Tim.  And the quality of many of the conversations. 

    Many of the people who made this place so active are now at Zaadz.  Including us, of course.  When everyone was leaving, I really was opposed to getting involved on another site and didn't want to sign up at Zaadz.  Now that I'm there, I realize what a great place it is.  In terms of features, it beats this forum in so many ways.  So, that's one reason why people aren't coming back.

    Still, it's a shame to see this place so quiet. 

    Gone are the days indeed.

    More could be done here.  What do you think would change things -- help to revive it?


    May the boundless knowledge that time presents and space allows illuminate the native perspectives of your original face.

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  •  05-21-2007, 8:44 PM 23100 in reply to 23093

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Of course, what you each say is so, Balder and Tim.

    And a few thoughts and questions that I'm gonna liberate from myself here:

    One, IN may change and become somewhat busy again - probably not like when it was bubbling through the romantic phase of Ken Wilber and take the world to unknown heights excitement, of intellectual percolation,  and of fresh social discoveries and connections being made. Many big corporations growth is described as an "S" curve and the top of the S at the leading edge of the timeline certainly flattens out. There may be a similar phenomenon/tendency here. That tendency is probably the confluence of many factors about human, group behavior, and psyche - one small piece of which might have to do with novelty, boredom, the end of a romance phase and such. Some corporations however don't seem to act like that or the timing is different. Look at charts of various financial markets and there are many patterns. We really don't know how this one will be, with recoveries, with resurgences, with rebirths, with transformation. Another possible metaphor. A fifty year old man has sore joints, little enthusiasm for novelty, disenchanted with almost everything, wonders about the value of life and continuing to live. He doesn't necessarily spiral down into increasing decrepitude. Something may happen. He/she may become more vital than she ever was. Taking a snapshot slice though a life doesn't tell the full story, nor do necessarily extrapolated, familiar developmental lines.

    Some who act as though they care and say a "Oh, what a shame; it used to be such a thriving dynamic place - I wish it still were." actually may have mixed feelings about it. They may be conflicted - hey, that's not a big stetch for most of us humans. All feelings, thoughts and actions impinge, including those conflicted, occasionally unconscious feelings and inner trajectoried patterns that might also want IN to fail, crash and burn, wither on the wine for various indeterminate reasons. We can't believe what everyone says, here. The short versions are just that, often caracatures of complex individual and social forces. Even the cogent IN alumni have conflicts and blindspots and mixed motivations and agendas but maybe only present the simplified versions. For example, one might blame the demise and exodus on Helene, because it's neat and many people can relate to the simplicity of that. Ambition, individual and collective, can be part of it, but one may not want to own that, in fact, my loyalty and interest only goes so far. My tolerance, my capacity for frustration, ambiguity, reality may only go so far. Maybe I prefer the fantasy of something being better and more advanced, even helpful for humanity over there. Whereas, to name just one popularized descriptor of a defense and rationalization is "skapegoating". Among the various possibilities in this non-simple question, maybe there's been a pied piper phenomenon going on here, or rats leaving a sinking ship phenomenon, in addition to the higher reasoned analyses  that can be articulated. Maybe people actually like and benefit from being able to mine the junior leagues for talent. What bright and turquoise colored mind, body and spirit would want to hang out with the less developed, boring-been-there-done-that conversations and people, when we are aiming forward and upward? Create a new forum and invite all those who are bright enough and know it to come over. Will Adastra's II/zaadz go on for a long time? Maybe. Will people get frustrated and leave their marriages  when their partners don't seem so sharp, interesting, novel, and beautiful any more? This seems to me like a complex subject and I doubt that I could sum it up with much objectivity.

    In this incomprehensibly large kosmos and human world, what does an apparent slowing down of activity mean? Fewer posts are the measure of what in a snapshot timeframe? Is there a significant diminution of value because less cognitively sophisticated things are being said, especially on comparison to other contemporarily shining beacons? What might incubation look like? Will more profound human transformation occur as a result of the activities at blog A or blog B than slow, dull-appearing C? Maybe certain people know. I don't

    If someone suggests that IN is dying/dead, are they really, wholeheartedly wanting to have it live? To flourish? What is really behind a suggestion like that, in it's complexity and deeper 'layers' of intrapsychic truth and social dynamics and blindspots? Where will this thread go? Will it leave a feeling tone of death? Will people create something fresh, here, though they have staleness in their thoughts? And, of course, however it goes, does it really matter? Does it?


    I think I'll stop with this riff here. Maybe more later. Ambo

    Ambo Suno
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  •  05-21-2007, 9:23 PM 23103 in reply to 23100

    Re: Dead Forever?

    What you say is true, too, Ambo.  There may be many complex reasons lurking behind the occasional comments from old-timers here about how things have lost their lustre, how it's not the same, how Zaadz is such-and-such.  I felt conflicted about posting anything on this thread -- because it is bound to be experienced as at least somewhat insulting by those who still are active here.  (I have to say up front that I have consistently appreciated and enjoyed your posts, so I never was pointing the finger at you.)  And there are still interesting conversations taking place here.  IN just doesn't seem to have that same air of intensity and excitement.  But ... as you say ... that is likely impermanent, and doesn't really reflect anything about the viability of this forum.  Forums are largely what we put into them.  For those of us who complain, we may no longer be putting much effort into this place ... so, who are we to speak?

    For the record, I hope only for the success of this enterprise.  I do not long for the demise or failure of IN or I-I.  I have expressed disappointment because this place is not the hotbed of integral thinking and exploration that it could be.  That it was.

    (For now)


    May the boundless knowledge that time presents and space allows illuminate the native perspectives of your original face.

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  •  05-21-2007, 10:42 PM 23105 in reply to 23103

    Re: Dead Forever?

    My response is for everyone who has made the complaints that this site is not nearly as full of pazazz, inspiration, fun, intelligence,creativity, caring,, connecting and "big" and I mean really big lilke "24" to make the list.   I could go on and on.  For all of the these wonders, most of you are short on kindness and understanding.   I am interested in human behavior and when I stand back and watch this pattern of the

    Oldest and the Bestest  (with the exception of those who could not make the "club" and the ones that did not care whether they made the "club",  I am really pretty stunned.  When this happens ' I just keep watching the patterns with  words that say you only care about this site  and that is why you keep coming up with  criticism, putdowns,  constant poking in and out.  It is amazing to me and I do not even know what to call it.   I know that it does not inspire, motivate or show that care about what you speak of.   I like a lot of things about '
    Zaadaz but what I really do not like is the tone or attitude that you are taking about what might just be the big picture.  Allowing for space and messiness and patience or coming up with a plan that really sizzles is your job right now if you are going to continue to come back and forth.  Nobody needs anymore of what we are already aware of  and parts of which I am perfectly comfortable with until change becomes

    part of the process again.  Maybe it is just possible that some people are bogged down with Life Practice and are tending to that part of what is important. Perhaps there are people who are challenged in different ways.  There is nothing wrong with

    having a vision.   But no one will get very far if the continued complaining, whinning,

    downputting,  "we were the best and left and now look at what has happened" attitude wil not work.  You come back with this vision, present it and I promise you that it will be considered just as certain writings or certain questions are considered

    out of the pile.   And no matter how much you blame the administration or the ones who are left here, you will come off as arrogant.  It takes a lot of creativity and work to have a vision and present it .   I know I will not change much in your minds but change is happening for me and there are times when I just do not want to respond. I need a rest or duty calls.   I just keep watching this and I am floored at your behaviour because I do not see this on a daily basis and the world has a lot of crazy things going on.  However, it does not get my energy going too much.  If I were the administration,   I would ask all of you to put in writing what you think it is that needs to be done and submit it.  There would be no guarantee that it would fly.  Lay it out.

    I really tried to like the guy from Ky who is writing about his fellow abbots or monks or whtever because I am from that state.  Ken is very thrilled about that and I could not for the life of me even get past two pages.  And yet there is plenty here for me to work with even when traffic is slow.  I think it has a lot to do with time and intelligence in certain areas.  And we all have something to work on.  It also seems to me that you people are very transparent with what you are doing as we are to you with what you percieve we are not doing.   I have learned from all of you in one way or the other.  And it is up to you to do something about the very thing you talk about or enjoy the other site.  That really mystifies me.  You have some really energetic people over there who are doing their thing and they do not come over and look over this place and do a few lines of seeing what measures up, writing it up no matter that there are new people coming in everyday.  To me that is the worst of it.  There may be another great bunch out there like you guys say you were  waiting to take your place and I say that with sarcasm because I think you are missing something also and I cannot seem to name it.  I think you may have to do that.   I care and I don't care.  And there are things we do not know about or have to work with and we have been told there are things in the works.  Might as well get used to that.  That is life and these phases come and go.   Amen   Pattye

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  •  05-21-2007, 11:04 PM 23106 in reply to 23093

    Re: Dead Forever?

    bad ? dead ? are u talking about yourself ?

     

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  •  05-21-2007, 11:13 PM 23107 in reply to 23105

    Re: Dead Forever?

    I hear what you are saying, Pattye.  I think this poking in and out and grumbling has got to stop -- at least for me.  I have read others' complaints and had the same reactions you and Ambo have expressed; and yet I have also participated in the same criticizing and complaining.  I'm expressing how I really feel (I wish this place hadn't emptied out so of many people I'd grown to know and care about over several years' time, on two versions of Integral Naked before this one) and yet it really doesn't do much good to just post those complaints in the middle of cyberspace, for people who are unrelated to the events that took place over that period to read. 

    I won't delete my previous posts on this thread, since I think this conversation can be valuable (to me).  But I'd like to delete them.

    In my opinion, Timelody has not been among the "complainers" in recent months.  When this place was more active, and he was present here more often, he was actually quite an ardent defender and promoter of this space, of I-I, and of Ken's work.  I think he's just expressing disappointment to the old members who still peek in from time to time, rather than trying to criticize or hurt people who are currently here.  Tim is not mean-spirited.  And as far as I know, this is one of the few times when he's chimed in to nostalgically reflect on the early excitement and activity that appears to have left this place (for awhile, at least).

    I don't think there's anything wrong with missing the former activity of this place and some of the relationships that had formed over several years. 

    But there is something wrong if we keep rubbing that in the faces of others' here.  It doesn't do any good, and in fact can interfere with the new relationships we might form with the newer members.  To the extent I've contributed to that, I apologize.

    Best wishes,

    Balder


    May the boundless knowledge that time presents and space allows illuminate the native perspectives of your original face.

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  •  05-21-2007, 11:31 PM 23109 in reply to 23105

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Well, I was hesitant to even post this at all. But what I posted says a lot. Top posters are 0, 0, 0 and 0? I have actually tried to be involved here over the past several weeks, even longer. I have put some time into what I believed were some very thoughtful posts on some threads that seemed active and with great topics that I was interested in. And then, it fizzles. Part of the reason for posting this was to see if the same thing would happen here.

    Pattye, this is not about some "in crowd" making things up and controlling and complaining. It used to be that dozens and dozens and dozens of people from all over the world were participating and involved here, beautiful stuff, and when that type of activity is happening more and more people continually become involved. This, I though, was the point of an Integral Institute forum, especially when the invitations to become involved are all over the place, even now in Ken's books. And the simple fact of the matter is that one person destroyed that, or was allowed to destroy that. Why those who tried to stop that from happening get blamed for the fact is simply beyond me. This is not about blame, it is about a fact.

    No, I do not wish to offend the people who have been active here, but it's not many people when the top posters are 0, 0, 0 and 0.

    Ambo, I'm not sure if you realize what happened to bring all this about because you didn't seem to be too actively involved then. Maybe you were reading, maybe you know.

    But anyway, I'm just asking, and obviously I'm just asking because I care. I certainly could have left it alone, but the honest fact of the matter is that I do care. This did not happen by accident or just by some mysterious shift. Helen pissed too many people off for too long and with nothing being done  about it they all left. Then, when a few of us finally got some response on the matter we were humiliated. And Helen stayed for another several months until finally someone did something about, in one simple, simple move that could have been executed in all of 3 second way back last October. So? The question is, will it ever again be what it once was? And that is an honest question. Not meant to offend anyone, and truly coming from my heart.

    I would love to see the I-I forums (not just IN) turn into something like what they once were and even better.

    This is a special place. So, I'm still participating.

    Peace, Tim

     


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  05-22-2007, 7:09 AM 23123 in reply to 23109

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Arthur's voice:

    I agree substantially with Pattye's complaints in this thread.  Personally I don't feel it's productive anymore to rehash these battles - what does it accomplish? 

    There have been a lot of problems with these forums over years, we've talked and fought about it endlessly, and some of that stuff has finally been dealt with.  Is it the expectation that the forums will then instantly become thriving centers?  Come on, give them a chance over here.

    I've noticed a trickle of new people gradually coming in, and I would expect that process to continue.  However, if bitter old-timers keep coming over and rehashing old battles, or bemoaning how much they feel this place still sucks, it's not going to help the place revive.

    Lately, if and when I feel like coming over here, I've been trying to show up with  positive energy; e.g. I've posted a few things here that I thought people might be interested in.  I really think that it would be better if newcomers were not continually faced with the bitter residue of past collective karma, so can we just drop that please?  There's always the option of staying away if you don't like it here.

    spiral out,
    arthur

    p.s. Balder, I commend you for not deleting posts you regretted later - doing so fucks up the wespace when there's been ongoing discussion.

    Upgrade to ISC!
    http://www.integralinstitute.org/public/static/multispirit.aspx
    http://pods.zaadz.com/ii
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  •  05-22-2007, 8:25 AM 23126 in reply to 23123

    Re: Dead Forever?

    This post surprised me, Arthur.  I've considered you among the primary complainers and grousers here!  Poking your head in to advertise your pod and remark on how things still don't work very well here.  If you've decided to change tactics, I commend you for that, and I am joining you in the "no more complaining" club.
    May the boundless knowledge that time presents and space allows illuminate the native perspectives of your original face.

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  •  05-22-2007, 9:27 AM 23131 in reply to 23126

    Re: Dead Forever?

    Hey Guys,

    Despite how it may read, or is even evidenced in my second post above, I did not really post this with the intent of a complaint, or to hash up old issues. I did however, with the sincerest of intentions, want to see what would happen if I simply started a thread - maybe with echos of Pink Floyd in the back of my head (Hello, hello, hello . . . is there anybody in there . . .). Maybe it could create some more activity, maybe not.

    Perhaps I could have done it more humorously or in another way or should have; maybe just no one here is interested in talking to me and I am arrogant for not realizing that. (If so, well, I wouldn't mind trying to change that situation either.)

    But the bottom line is, just wanted to see if I could start a conversation -maybe it would turn into something good.

    My respect to everyone, and blessings to all "we" spaces

    Tim


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  05-22-2007, 10:50 AM 23134 in reply to 23131

    • edison is not online. Last active: 10-10-2007, 12:29 PM edison
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    Re: Dead Forever?

    Tim,

         Please know that there are folks here who are interested in what you have to share, what all those folks who sailed with you on the virtual Mayflower to Zaadz-land have to share. It's pretty self evident that if the those folks that are posting 20 times a day are posting somewhere else instead, things get a bit quiet.  But, I think the diagnosis of death is a bit premature.  

         

     

    Brian

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  •  05-22-2007, 11:12 AM 23137 in reply to 23123

    Re: Dead Forever?

    arthur's voice,

    i'm still waiting for a reply from you to 22731 in reply to 22419.  is the grass greener on that other side?

    ralph 

     



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  •  05-22-2007, 11:15 AM 23138 in reply to 23134

    Re: Dead Forever?

    This forum will find its way again, of that I am sure. The energy here is noticably different now that the one troll is gone. Small trickles will grow into larger ones, etc etc
    Mostly this will be from new members who build new connections, and possibly some old-timers such as Tim and Balder will pop in from time to time and take part in dialogues.

    I also want to stress that the temporary demise of this forum brought some good things. The I-I pod over at Zaadz became a thriving and highly vibrant place, with amazing theoretical discussions and deep interpersonal bonds being formed. I was one of those who didn't want to leave this place, but once I did it brought me tremendous rewards.

    This is not an advertisement for IIZaadz! This forum has great potential in that all I-I members automatically find out about it and get access. It will continually be fed with newbies who have great things to say. As soon as there is some regular discussion here the newbies will stick around, and then we have a positive upward-moving spiral going. It is also quite possible that I-I will install a new updated platform for this forum in the future, and that will enable social bonds further (with an updated message/profile interface). And who knows, maybe Ken or founding members of I-I will interact with forum members in special events, etc.

    The potential is endless, and those who commit to this place now will be the old-timers of the future! Personally I will mostly hang out at Zaadz, but I will pop in from time to time, to constructively participate in the dialogue.

    peace and blessings
    pelle

    http://pelle.zaadz.com/
    http://malmointegral.blogspot.com/
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  •  05-22-2007, 11:41 AM 23140 in reply to 23137

    Re: Dead Forever?

    ralphweidner:

    arthur's voice,

    i'm still waiting for a reply from you to 22731 in reply to 22419.  is the grass greener on that other side?

    ralph 



    Thanks for the interest, Ralph, but I feel everything's been said on the Pavlina issue and I'm personally bored with it.  Smile [:)]

    BTW I agree with everything Pelle said in 23138.

    spiral on,
    arthur


    Upgrade to ISC!
    http://www.integralinstitute.org/public/static/multispirit.aspx
    http://pods.zaadz.com/ii
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