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A Theoretical Question

Last post 11-07-2007, 1:59 AM by MiraMiller. 2 replies.
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  •  11-06-2007, 5:37 AM 31375

    A Theoretical Question

    Dear all,

    If Spirit involves, descending into soul, to mind, to body, to life, to matter (as Ken claims on a number of occasions), firstly how does that fit in with AQAL that matter occupies ALL of the right hand quadrants - its not hierarchical?

    Also, 'all of us at some point identified with one of the little objects that were arising' (Ken - Practice for Two Realities). If this is the case, some Spirit identifies with plants, some with animals, etc. which means that some of Spirit has more of a potential to evolve than others. Or does it? The fact that life and death occur - does this mean that Spirit is not in fact identified with these objects, which simply disperse and then it chooses something else to identify with?

    Identification with an object is the basic delusion, after all. So an animal is identified with itself, but not 'a self'. That is very interesting. The self only (if I understand correctly) arises with the evolution of the neocortex.

    In other words, as humans, evolving towards Spirit and yet one with it at the same time, isn't only a part of Spirit tending towards itself, when the other part (everything non-human in the known universe) cannot, because it doesn't possess the same capacity?

    Surprise [:O]


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  •  11-06-2007, 9:59 PM 31436 in reply to 31375

    Re: A Theoretical Question

    Hey D,

    I would suggest that it is not correct to say that all matter is relegated to the right hand quadrants. If you would like to go into that one I would be happy to if prompted, but this already looks like a long enough post in the making so I will pass for now.

    For now I would say that if you consider "matter" to simply be forms such as atoms, molecules, cells, etc. then yes, you will only find that in the upper right quadrant. The lower right is dedicated to the description or study of collectives of individual "IT's". You really can't describe a collective as a material form because then you are simply talking about a more complex form (still singular). Think of this as the difference between talking about an individual forest (a complex form comprised of a variety of insects, plants, trees and animals) or the forest as an Ecosystem (a collective of a variety of individual insects, plants, trees and animals).The collective can only be described by its function (activity/behavior) and/or organization  and this would not technically fit into strictly "atomic" definition of matter.

    So, you have matter, in this limited sense, only found in the upper right hand quadrant where individual forms in the exterior world are encountered. Still, however, there is a hierarchical order to be found, simple forms combine to create more complex forms. In the case of the most common example KW uses when explaining Integral Theory via the quadrant map you have atoms, to molecules, to cells, to organisms, etc. on to the formation of the human brain. You are correct however, that the hierarchy all the way to spirit seems to be missing. It is not labeled. But, Ken often alludes to there being such a progression when he talks of ILP including work on all levels of the first quadrant through exercising the gross, subtle and causal bodies; that's his 3 body workout.

    When it comes to the question of involution/evolution it is probably incorrect to fully differentiate Spirit and Matter. In fact it has been stated in many esoteric traditions that Matter is Spirit at a lower vibration and vice versa, Spirit is Matter at a higher vibration. It has also been said that the purpose of creation (the coming together of the highest vibration into the lowest vibration) is the evolution of Matter as we know it in order to raise its vibratory level. Who can say if there is any validity here or not? How could we prove or disprove such an assumption? You can see why KW, who is seeking to bridge some mighty wide gaps between science and religion, mostly stays away from such speculation. Still, if you have tasted the Non Dual then the fact that Spirit and Matter are not two is clearly seen and if you accept the Non Dual as a working hypothesis then this would be foundational to the theory.

    Still, there does appear to be a difference between the fastest vibratory matter (Spirit) and the slowest matter (or all spirit if you prefer) and it also appears (to the Spiritual explorer) that Spirit has "involved" itself into matter. But, what does this mean? First, it does not mean that Spirit "identifies" with the material form at all levels of involvement. While there may indeed be some sort of "consciousness" of the atom (and I suggest there is, as do Ken and some physicist) it would be limited by the form itself to a sort of prehensive consciousness. It would be nothing which remotely resembles human consciousness. There is also the research of Massou Abe (I think I have the name right) who has written about the apparent response of water molecules to human emotion. And sometime back there was a limited amount of investigation into the "secret life of plants" and how they too respond to external stimuli in a way that you would not expect a non-conscious plant. Still, the form does not allow for the complexity of consciousness necessary to form any sort of identification. The same can be said for almost all animals, although domestication of some species may indeed be prodding them towards a minimal capacity of individual identity. But full "self reflecting" consciousness in a material form requires a very complex organic structure, which so far only the human brain seems capable of on this planet. (Some may argue this point and I am certainly open to those arguments) The point is that there is little or no delusion occurring on levels of being on this planet below the human being. So, here is the way I have come to understand involution and evolution. Creating form out of formless matter likely means the coming together of the rapidly vibrating (intelligent/light) Spirit with the slowly vibrating (unintelligent/dark) matter. But two such disparate energetic vibrations would be totally incompatible. It would not be unlike a lightning bolt striking a tree. No problem for the lightning but a disaster for the tree. For the two to come together there must be a stepping down or transformation of the highest to a level safe enough for contact with the lowest. For the sake of this discussion only I'll say there are five levels of transformation between Spirit/Divine and matter. Divine to (1) Causal, to (2) Intuitive (non conceptual knowing), (3) mental, (4) emotional/astral, (5) energetic/etheric (chi, prana), physical matter. This would be the process of involution. Once contact is made to the lower levels matter is "informed" and forms arise and evolve in complexity. This eventually allows for the transformation upward via material forms (human consciousness) seeking an ever more powerful and direct connection with the informing Spirit. The stronger and clearer and penetrating the connection the more the vibratory rate of even the physical matter involved is raised. Thus, complex evolving forms capable of safely transmitting or translating the faster vibrations of Spirit into the matter comprising them are instruments of salvation in bringing the darkness into the light. (this is a very condensed and truncated version based loosely on many other teachings/theories. I personally suggest "A Treatise on Cosmic Fire" by Alice Bailey/DK if you want a thorough account/theory/hypothosis)

    The point is that each individual material form (be they atoms, bacteria, plants, animals or humans) is encased (better yet, interpenetrated) by these different vibratory "planes" of matter. But, there is no corresponding  individual "body" composed of  the higher or faster vibrating substances of a plane until the complexity of the form is such that it is able to accomodate the required level of consciousness. And, it is the formation or development of individual "bodies" in the higher planes that facilitates the clearing and strengthening of the connection from one level or plane to another. Human beings naturally develop (or are born with) the physical, energetic, emotional, and mental bodies with the intuitve body and higher latent or potential.

    Or Not Big Smile [:D]


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  •  11-07-2007, 1:59 AM 31447 in reply to 31436

    Re: A Theoretical Question

    Even though I am by no means an expert and indeed this thought occurred involuntarily as I was trying to go to sleep, you have certainly cleared up some of my lacunae so I hope I will slumber more easily this evening! Sorry - I spent a year trying to figure out the whole pregiven vs. co-created thing, and then I stumbled upon Appendix II of 'On the Nature of a Post-Metaphysical Spirituality'.

    As you know, the mind has a tendency to wander from one problem to the next Wink [;)]

    Bye for now,


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