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1st Tier/2nd Tier communication

Last post 05-10-2008, 11:32 PM by ralphweidner. 5 replies.
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  •  05-05-2008, 8:10 PM 49165

    • figtreehillchiro is not online. Last active: 22 Dec 2008, 1:59 AM figtreehillchiro
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    1st Tier/2nd Tier communication

    In acknowledging and accepting all other stages of being whether it be in any of the Lines, how does one with an Integral awareness participate in a 1st Tier social Environment? (We all can’t move to Boulder ☺) I once heard Roger Walsh refer to 2 types of people, the one who calls a spade a spade and gets stoned for it and one who becomes a hermit.

    Do we need to moment to moment cognitively identify present people’s Stages and develop a corresponding vocabulary to ‘keep everyone happy’ to avoid getting stoned (i.e. and continue contributing to the world rather than death)? Does that hinder the Integral level of expression/ aesthetic line or is that the actual nature of an Integral expression? Can 2nd Tier people be authentic in a 1st Tier environment without pissing them off? Ken said that you need to work on your own house and be an example rather than trying to change them. What if your example doesn’t resonate through their 1st Tier lense especially from a distance? E.g. the appearance of arrogance from a Green’s view. Or is that just your shadow hence the requirement for continuation of cleaning your house?

    Does it mean that since I’m asking this question my ‘interpersonal’ Line is not 2nd Tier?

    Would another factor be here that I’m attempting at a Feminine Type i.e. have a desire to relate to people rather than Masculinely remain centred and ‘unflappable’ despite the ‘stoning’?

    As I'm relatively new to I-I, I apologise in advance if the question is easily answered from material I'm yet to read.

    Kelly :)


    A clever ironic quote is best here... instead I'll smile :)
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  •  05-05-2008, 9:00 PM 49179 in reply to 49165

    Re: 1st Tier/2nd Tier communication

    great questions! great picture! btw

    no kidding, these are the sort of questions just about all of us have been asking for some time. you've also given about as good answers as any i've heard. i'm beginning to work out my own tentative answers, but i've still got a long ways to go. certainly, what wilber or walsh might have to say is a great help. they and others associated with i-i have without a doubt helped me greatly.

    my sense, though, is that there will always be questions--if not about communicating with 1st tier, then how about with 2nd tier? or 3rd tier? or any of a million other questions illuminated by the integral vision? would we want it otherwise?

    incidentally, kerry's message on 'throwing baby amber out with the bathwater', composed at almost the same time you initiated this thread and with a similar picture, is, in effect, a thought provoking response to your message Surprise [:O]

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  •  05-05-2008, 9:42 PM 49194 in reply to 49179

    • figtreehillchiro is not online. Last active: 22 Dec 2008, 1:59 AM figtreehillchiro
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    Re: 1st Tier/2nd Tier communication

    Upon reading the Baby Amber bathwater thread, I drew my conclusion that 1st Tier will always be 1st Tier and 2nd Tier issues with 1st Tier are purely a shadow. Upon reflection of my life and social circles, I've always been an outsider, being reminded again and again to not expect others to see what I see. That leaves a level of acceptance of others but rarely a deep connection to. It's like a love from a distance after being 'taken the wrong way' time and time again. Therefore, it's not solely a 2nd Tier finding. It was a finding I had as a determined and goal orientated teenager observing the red rebels and blue followers not fitting in with either group... that makes it obvious to be a shadow rather than a 'how do you talk to a deaf person' discussion. So hermit versus stoned to death? Depends on your shadow? Therefore once a "misunderstood shadow" is sorted then communication will be all clear no matter who's from which Tier???? xoxox Kelly
    A clever ironic quote is best here... instead I'll smile :)
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  •  05-06-2008, 12:40 PM 49437 in reply to 49194

    Re: 1st Tier/2nd Tier communication


    hi kelly,

    there's no question in my mind you got what kerry was saying. the rub for me is how to communicate, knowing that i and often those i want to communicate with are, quite honestly, laden with shadows. being 2nd tier, which i think i am, is no great help here. if anything, it only opens up more levels, including all of 1st tier, at which i have, inevitably, developed shadows.

    i don't mean to be simply putting myself down, but my sense is that authentic communication requires that i be as up front as possible about this, especially since we're all coming from our own unique kosmic addresses, which would make communication a romeo and juliet affair, even if there weren't shadows.

    so, in answer to your last question, i don't think communication in the world of samsara could ever be all clear, even if we could free ourselves of shadows. that's why we talk about 'the miracle of we', and i'm elated that we have achieved some mutual understanding in our first couple of messages.


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  •  05-07-2008, 7:39 PM 49699 in reply to 49437

    • figtreehillchiro is not online. Last active: 22 Dec 2008, 1:59 AM figtreehillchiro
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    Re: 1st Tier/2nd Tier communication

    Ralph,

    Nice point Re: The miracle of we!!!

    I think I need to look more into the study of Shadows... or least Ken's theory. I'm looking through mine all the time :)

    I think when I first asked the question, I was after an idealist method that was a common finding that worked in 1st vs 2nd Tier interaction. Akin to make nothing appear like a Hierarchy when talking to Greens or validate Blue's one and only right way of doing things. And that's what left me asking the question of authenticity. Behaving like that feels a bit manipulative. However, language is a limitation and I suppose it depended on what the intent was for communicating in the first place. I have found myself to be the hermit type or at least reserved and that's ok when your life purpose doesn't involve a 'we' but I have feeling mine does.

    Thanks Ralph!

    Kelly
    A clever ironic quote is best here... instead I'll smile :)
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  •  05-10-2008, 11:32 PM 50248 in reply to 49699

    Re: 1st Tier/2nd Tier communication


    hi kelly,

    you touch on so many things, and i can sense they're all connected, but i'm not quite sure how nor how to reply. anyway, i think it's good that you're reaching out and, in effect, working on those connections.

    i can be a hermit type myself, and i've had alot more years to work at it than youStick out tongue [:P] from an integral perspective, of course, it's also good to work on the non-hermit side of ourselves.

    more seriously, they say that still waters run deep. i was definitely shy in my earlier years, but i can now see that it was, perhaps, because there was an awful lot to witness and take in and make sense of in a not so ordinary life.

    how this relates to shadows and manipulation i'm not sure, except that i've wondered about this, too. my primary concern has pretty much always been, not about manipulating others, but about them manipulating me. hey! there's the connection! the concerns of a shy person!

    of course, too much of either leads to shadows. in my case the hooks would be the people who i get all worked up about because i'm sure they're trying to manipulate me. come to think of it, that used to be a problem i had. i think i may have gotten over this, but i'm going to need to check.

    thanks kelly!

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