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Not pluralistic but worldcentric?

Last post 09-14-2006, 1:05 AM by MiraMiller. 9 replies.
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  •  08-28-2006, 3:35 PM 5718

    • anders is not online. Last active: 12-01-2007, 11:12 AM anders
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    Not pluralistic but worldcentric?

    Hi
    I have severe theoretical problems with a proposed feature of the level where individualistic concerns , treated with formal calculations dominates,  i think it is what is called "orange" in SD. What I question is the statement that it is a "worldcentric" level.   At the same time it cannot be pluralistic, since that is a feature of a higher/later/deeper level ("green").  "Worldcentric" to me should mean to act on behalf of the world at large, which definitely needs to have included (and transcended) a lot of perspectives -  it should even be postpluralistic. 

    I think there is something missing in the phrase :  "from egocentric to sociocentric to worldcentric."  After the sociocentric perspective comes the individualistic one, as far as I know, which also has been stated by Ken earlier  Which means a rational calculating position, in which you are aware of other people having other perspectives,  and may even take that into account, but surely not exchange your position for theirs.

    I think this distinction is not only a theoretical detail. Dominating actors in the world today, the rulers of the transnational companies probably are mostly "orange" individualistic achievers. It is not too difficult to think of them as worldcentric,  since they surely has the world as their arena.  But that surely is not what worldcentric means.  They see the world, they get to know some of the other cultures, but only as a means to pursue their individualistic goals,  mostly even identified with an instrumental (preconventional) subculture of the company.

    A truly pluralistic perspective would be a great step forward for those actors, a step that could pave the way for a later worldcentric view and a different role for these actors in the world.

    So, if we want to use integral theory as a tool to promote the unfolding of a more integral world, I think we have to do some cleaning up work along these lines.

    what do you think?

    anders
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  •  08-28-2006, 11:05 PM 5752 in reply to 5718

    Re: Not pluralistic but worldcentric?

    Hi Anders,

    That's a very interesting and valid point you're raising. Let me chip in with my thoughts.

    First of all, a clarifying question:

    anders:
    After the sociocentric perspective comes the individualistic one, as far as I know, which also has been stated by Ken earlier

    Can you give some background on that? To me it seems that we're now confusing the individual-social-individual pendulum movement of the Spiral Dynamics model with Kohlberg's levels of moral development. To draw a rough sketch:
    • Blue: social orientation, ethnocentric moral conception
    • Orange: individual orientation, world-centric moral conception
    • Green: social orientation, world-centric moral conception

    anders:
    They see the world, they get to know some of the other cultures, but only as a means to pursue their individualistic goals

    That sounds like an example of a pathological orange at work. Yes, orange has a more individual orientation than green (or, say, blue) but that doesn't mean it's not capable of taking a world-centric stance. Let's not forget that ideas such as abolition of slavery and democracy stem from this level of thinking - Ideas which clearly are post-ethnocentric and unselfish.

    Of course in lacking pluralism, as you pointed out, orange might not employ the most skillful of means to help the world. Examples of this include trying to establish democracies and free market economies everywhere as universal panacea to all of world's problems.

    Summa summarum: I think that orange is definitely capable of adopting a world-centric stance, even though green and 2nd tier may be more inclined and skilled to do so.

    Cheers!

    Janne

    Janne Asmala
    janne.asmala@gmail.com
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  •  08-30-2006, 2:32 PM 6007 in reply to 5718

    Re: Not pluralistic but worldcentric?

    Hi anders,

    I believe that orange, as embodied by the modern/post-modern corporation and individuals who comprise them and that mind set, are actually still more ethnocentric (the corporation being the tribe) than truly world-centric.  World-centric should not be confused with the globilization that is occurring through corporate expansion/integration today.

    The corporation cares primarily for its own interests and welfare and is geared more to competitive and exploitative advantage through science, individual merit and material accumulation..........any concern for others, outsiders or for all mankinds' general welfare and advancement is little more than lip-service for public relations purposes........such progress for all humans is welcome only if it arises secondarily and not at the expense of the gains of the corporation or its members.

    We see orange Imperialism emerging in the world today, which is a fusing of corporate, military and public political sectors; but the goal continues to be increasing power and wealth for all insiders/adherents and increasingly the marginalization and extermination of all who are in disagreement or outsiders with values that differ from the dominant orange system.........

    R.K.


    "No problem can be solved at the level of consciousness that created it in the first place!"

    887 Posts on Forum #1; 222 Posts on Forum #2......Member Since 8/8/2003
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  •  09-08-2006, 7:58 AM 7263 in reply to 6007

    Re: Not pluralistic but worldcentric?

    orange = multiplistic, it can see and take multiple perspectives as experimentation and exploration, but chooses One as the Best solution. Much like the scientific method.

    It is world centric in that it can explore multiple perspectives, while Blue, for example, cannot.

    Green= pluralistic, it can see and take mulitple perspectives, AND values the truth and goodness in all of them, does not wish to choose one over the other and does not believe in ranking or hierarchies.

    Integral= integrated, it can see and take multiple perspectives and values them for the truth and goodness they offer AND  criticizes them for their faults AND ranks them using developmental holarchies and can choose one over the other if the situation calls for it.

    Thats about it.

    Benji

    "Should it matter that my mind won't fit back in my head" -S. Davis
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  •  09-08-2006, 8:30 AM 7269 in reply to 7263

    Re: Not pluralistic but worldcentric?

    Hey Benji,

    Of course you are right in terms of basic definitions and my previous post maybe should have been more clear............I was particularly describing the unhealthy forms we actually see manifested and dominating global civilization today, which are quite different from the ideal value systems and manifestations Beck and others describe in their theories..........

    Orange for example, can explore multiple perspectives, but for the most part is institutionally and in practice dominated by the objective perspective in the physical world as the ultimate reality...........

    Sorting out unhealthy from healthy adds to the complications of integral analysis, especially when any criticism of dominant orange institutions (or any other level) is often vigorously supressed........

    R.K.


    "No problem can be solved at the level of consciousness that created it in the first place!"

    887 Posts on Forum #1; 222 Posts on Forum #2......Member Since 8/8/2003
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  •  09-08-2006, 12:21 PM 7307 in reply to 7269

    Re: Not pluralistic but worldcentric?

    Heya RK,

    I agree with you on the unhealthy orange, if that is what you are describing in your post, which sounds like a very very unhealthy orange. 

    I somewhat disagree with you on globalized business and worldcentric.  From my view, it seems as if orange business sees the globe as a stage from which to make deals and moves, treaties and profit to expand their influence. They do this by having staffers in other countries, working with locals, studying local customers and their customs  to better match their product  to the local. Blue on the other hand, would rather conquer and destroy the natives of other lands and force thier ways upon them (the locals).

    I think you may be mixing together unhealthy blue and unhealthy orange a little. Unhealthy blue doesn't care about international law and order, and directly defies it.  Unhealthy orange doesn't care about international law and order, but uses is strategically for thier advantage, while working inside the system (lobbying winning favors from politicos) to win legal advantages over other companies. Because they see the advantage of having a global system.

    "orange for example can explore .....in the phsycial world as the ultimate reality"-RK

    Which I think is the definition of  American Orange today. Nothing really wrong with it other than its limited by being a merely 1st tier perspective.

    But I'd rather work for an orange company than a blue one.

    Not all orange business is evil. Many people who run global business at an orange, Not Yellow, level do so following the values that they are providing a  quality product or service to their clients(local and  global) and like the competition and inovation involved and actually care about their customers.

    They may not always be culturally sensitive or practice sustainablility (green) but they aren't necassarily consciously working to "enslave" the locals and force them into sweatshops.

    Just some thoughts
    Smile [:)]

    Cool [H]Benji

    "What the bleep do I know" Wink [;)]

    "Should it matter that my mind won't fit back in my head" -S. Davis
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  •  09-08-2006, 12:28 PM 7308 in reply to 7307

    Re: Not pluralistic but worldcentric?

    Hmmmmmm.....

    Onemorething,

    Maybe what you are referring to are corporations working within orange LR structures, with a corporate culture at  orange LL, but a founder or CEO who is orange cognitively, yet red, or blue morally.

    This is the pyschograph of oppression that you are speaking of.

    Combined with a US gov't moral line at Blue, but with Orange and  higher Cognition working elswhere.

    So we need to speak about the difference between the Center O Gravity of a corporation LL, the system it works in LR, Orange or higher and the consciousness that flows through it via the CEO's, President's, Bosses, Owners, and workers UL Values Line, which could be  Red through Yellow.

    Thats what I meant to say,

    -B

    "Should it matter that my mind won't fit back in my head" -S. Davis
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  •  09-11-2006, 1:55 PM 7595 in reply to 7307

    Re: Not pluralistic but worldcentric?

    Hey b,

    From my view, it seems as if orange business sees the globe as a stage from which to make deals and moves, treaties and profit to expand their influence. They do this by having staffers in other countries, working with locals, studying local customers and their customs  to better match their product  to the local. Blue on the other hand, would rather conquer and destroy the natives of other lands and force thier ways upon them (the locals). 

    yeah, you have convinced me that orange probably is a little more worldcentric than I was giving it credit for..........sort of an emerging physical step of getting their people living in other countries and learning more about them and their culture, etc..........which is important on the road to a more complete green worldcentrism........that deeply cares about all humanity regardless of their country/culture.......... 

    I think you may be mixing together unhealthy blue and unhealthy orange a little. Unhealthy blue doesn't care about international law and order, and directly defies it.  Unhealthy orange doesn't care about international law and order, but uses is strategically for thier advantage, while working inside the system (lobbying winning favors from politicos) to win legal advantages over other companies. Because they see the advantage of having a global system.

    Could very well be........in fact I ususally refer to what we have here as a mix of blue/orange.........

    Which I think is the definition of  American Orange today. Nothing really wrong with it other than its limited by being a merely 1st tier perspective.

    But I'd rather work for an orange company than a blue one.

    Well, from my v-meme mix........the something wrong with it is that it is limited to an orange value system that is its peak..........it was a fine development and advancement for its era, but we are in a new era now that needs to complete first tier by moving into green dominance.........before we can advance to 2nd tier..........

    I'd rather work for a green company than and orange one..........

    Not all orange business is evil. Many people who run global business at an orange, Not Yellow, level do so following the values that they are providing a  quality product or service to their clients(local and  global) and like the competition and inovation involved and actually care about their customers.

    They may not always be culturally sensitive or practice sustainablility (green) but they aren't necassarily consciously working to "enslave" the locals and force them into sweatshops.

    No I agree orange business it isn't evil........but nor is it adequate for the world we are living in.........it could and must become better and more than it is today, so we can solve our problems created by our great growth and complexity........

    For example, they must become more sensitve that they have (or should have) more responsibility for/toward society to help it resolve its increasing problems........not just be free to create more and more profits and capital without doing the real difficult jobs [according to Warren Buffett, capitalist extrodinaire].

    This responsibility includes figuring out how to solve our most pressing problems:  wealth and income disparity, environmental destruction, etc, etc., many of which have been created by the orange v-meme itself through its lack of sufficient consciousness............whether the "intent" for exploitation is usually present or not is debatable, but either way that point is mostly irrelevant..........

    All the best,

    R.K. 


    "No problem can be solved at the level of consciousness that created it in the first place!"

    887 Posts on Forum #1; 222 Posts on Forum #2......Member Since 8/8/2003
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  •  09-11-2006, 2:08 PM 7596 in reply to 7308

    Re: Not pluralistic but worldcentric?

    Maybe what you are referring to are corporations working within orange LR structures, with a corporate culture at  orange LL, but a founder or CEO who is orange cognitively, yet red, or blue morally. This is the pyschograph of oppression that you are speaking of.

    Combined with a US gov't moral line at Blue, but with Orange and  higher Cognition working elswhere.

    So we need to speak about the difference between the Center O Gravity of a corporation LL, the system it works in LR, Orange or higher and the consciousness that flows through it via the CEO's, President's, Bosses, Owners, and workers UL Values Line, which could be  Red through Yellow.

    Very good points all.......I had never really gotten into that much, i.e. to differentiate the thinking of the top as being at a lower level of consciousness than other workers below them......but this makes sense.........

    I had always thought that positive change in values must occur at the the top in society........as managers below them follow the leaders (and emulate their values) to get their piece of the pie also...........and lower workers do so also, often just to survive or have a decent quality of life..........with often very limited or highly repressed input into corporate or public policy-making......

    Good working with you!

    R.K.


    "No problem can be solved at the level of consciousness that created it in the first place!"

    887 Posts on Forum #1; 222 Posts on Forum #2......Member Since 8/8/2003
    • Post Points: 5
    • Report abuse
  •  09-14-2006, 1:05 AM 7785 in reply to 5718

    Re: Not pluralistic but worldcentric?

    Hi anders (are you German, by the way?)

    I've often thought about this, too! Smile [:)]

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