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Cute and clever, though seemingly unecessary and confusing.

Last post 01-03-2007, 5:23 AM by cosmogerminator. 14 replies.
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  •  09-21-2006, 5:51 PM 8793

    Cute and clever, though seemingly unecessary and confusing.

    Hey guys,

    I don't mean to be disrespectful but I have a question.

    I wanted to ask what exactly is the purpose of remapping Don Beck's color system used to describe the degrees of human emergence with a new Holon color scheme. I can see why Dr Beck would choose to use colors to more easily describe Dr. Graves double letter system signifies. Makes sense!
    Arbitrarily chosen colors have no limitation on their range, so as humans reach new developmental stages we can continue to add new colors to the scale.

    Now using a rainbow (or light spectrum) like palette, which is limited on both ends, clamps the range of possibilities. What happens when humans develop to the 10th stage? What color will this system assign to it then? Also, this new color system has some colors landing exactly on the same slots as Dr. Beck's scale - such as green and red - but have other colors introduced such as magenta (replacing purple), and infrared, (which is a really an invisible color range to the human eye, not a color). And what happened to 7th stage yellow? Squeezed between turquoise and green? how do I reffer to it? Either way, I understand that the specifics of the color arrangement (like placing magenta between red and infrared) are of no real importance. What I would like to understand is why try and replace a well established color system for another one if it offers no tangible advantage to it. Especially when the work of Spiral Dynamics is referred to so often in the integral community?

    It seems redundant and prone to creating confusion.

    Does anyone know why, and what the advantages to using the new color code are?

    Any info is greatly appreciated!

    Many Blessings,

    BV
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  •  09-21-2006, 7:27 PM 8802 in reply to 8793

    Re: Cute and clever, though seemingly unecessary and confusing.

    Spiral Dynamics is a way of studying and describing the values line in humans. Ken's new colors are not limited to any one line, but rather represent a general altitude of consciousness. So with the new colors you can talk about turquoise cognition, green morals and amber spirituality - whereas the spiral dynamics colors should be saved for discussions about values.

    (SD blue=amber, yellow= teal)

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  •  09-29-2006, 4:11 AM 9805 in reply to 8793

    Re: Cute and clever, though seemingly unecessary and confusing.

    BrunoVilela:
    ...
    I - Now using a rainbow (or light spectrum) like palette, which is limited on both ends, clamps the range of possibilities.

    II - Does anyone know why, and what the advantages to using the new color code are?


    Bruno, i share my innervisions ... (thanks for the opportunity by your expression)

    I - the rainbow is a good natural manifestation of natures light in the field of observing a thing by human:

    guess, we all know light has all colours in itself ...
    then, in the field of observing a thing we see the light break because of our perspective and because of the circumstances abroad, over there ... were the rainbow seems to appear.
    we donot see one beam of light, we see a bow as a colour spectrum unvowing ...
    it is similar as the expression of sound in the head of a man ... who does not believe directly what is said by the other one. A behaviour we got used to by those ones who seem in control of media, of mediated rules how they dicide on how to mediate in common and mutual sense. Again, who's sense ... anyhow.

    I agree on the Becks interpretation where the colours seem a radiant expression of how different stages reacte upon one another in a feminine and masculine core.

    At the other hand, i can make another perspective out of the spectrum hierarchie ken seems to have adopted. It would help us if the designer/adopter clearifies his arguments/considerations.

    II - as advantage i can see the perspective that both the more or less ordered and hierarchical approach is a true one and that also the radiant perspective is a true one ...
    Promoting the both simultanious belief systems is a way how the F & M are realized by the selves we are here? in manifestating our lives integral ...

    CdG

    each human being is an expression of free will;

    where the source of light alignes evolution continiously healing

    (which makes me trust)
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  •  09-29-2006, 12:23 PM 9845 in reply to 8793

    Re: Cute and clever, though seemingly unecessary and confusing.

    Thank you for the reply. I appreciate the opportunity to engage in healthy discussion.

    My understanding is that Dr. Beck's work on Spiral Dynamics does describe the process of human emergence in terms of values. However I believe he does not speak of them in terms of social or ethical values, specifically, but rather in terms of memetic values (vMemes). As you may know, each meme describes not types of people, but values – or lines – in people and, as such, memes correspond to a complete set of traits describing the total ecology of both the individual and collective minds gravitating in and around them. Therefore, when evaluating one’s placement within the spiral, we effectively take into account one’s cognition, spirituality, morality, and so on, in order to get a complete – or integral, if you will – view of the picture.

    I also believe that merely dismissing the new color scheme as a thoughtless attempt to fit the Spiral Dynamics paradigm into a prettier box would be a naïve interpretation, and demonstrate a lack of awareness of Ken Wilber’s extensive and sophisticated body of work. In my opinion, Ken has displayed a healthy dose vanity with regards to the importance of his findings – which are fantastic by any measure – but he has also displayed an admirable disposition for giving credit where credit is due – namely those whose past work helped pave the way to the current integral revolution.


    Underlying the new color scheme, there seems to be a conscious intent to wrap SD into a “light spectrum” envelope. Since the colors observed in the rainbow are each a refracted subcomponent of light itself, and when added all together deliver the full – or integral – spectrum of light, it makes perfect sense – in theory – that, when trying to package the complexity of SD into an easy to grasp format, the use of the rainbow as a metaphor for ascendance be used.


    In practice, however, this approach confuses rather then clarifies. Please allow me to elaborate on this statement.


    If colors had never been used to code the SD memes, then the holon model would work great. However, an original model has been in use for nearly three decades. In order to use the “light spectrum” logic while minimizing confusion (such as recoding purple as red, red as orange, and blue as yellow) some colors were kept the same ( red and green), others were recoded (magenta for purple), and others were made up (infrared is not a color). Thus, the resulting color scheme bears some resemblance with the rainbow pattern, but that is about it. The actual rainbow progression goes as follows:


    Infrared > red > orange > yellow > green > turquoise > blue > violet > ultraviolet
    (note that infrared and ultraviolet aren’t actual colors, but rather entire color ranges invisible to the human eye)


    Now, does anyone care about the scientific accuracy of the rainbow pattern enough to use this as an argument against the holon color scheme? Well, I surely don’t.


    The above only matters when one recognizes that an effort is being made to make the SD paradigm easier to understand in “integral terms” but the result doesn’t measure up to the intentions. It is prone to creating confusion when trying to read the in-between stages, like 7th stage yellow (SD palette) being referred to as “teal”. Teal is so close in tone and hue to turquoise that it makes it for a color lame individual difficult to separate the two, like one can separate yellow from turquoise.


    In a nut shell, I believe that it really doesn’t matter whether a meme is assigned one color or another. Colors are an easy concept to grasp, even by young children. So since there is a well defined, easy to use system already in place, why complicate matters by trying to oversimplify something already so simple?


    Anyways, it is with great respect and gratitude that I participate in this forum. Thank you for allowing me to share my very personal point of view on this subject.


    Many blessings,


    Bruno

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  •  10-01-2006, 4:34 AM 9941 in reply to 9845

    Re: Cute and clever, though seemingly unecessary and confusing.

    being in the dialogue i confess my colour by now in navy ...
    dont no why, this colour is under the 19 colour providing color option in editing mode ...
    and i tend to look at my options and make use of them without any meaning at first doing ...
    later on sometimes an explanaton comes up and i can learn to know myself ...
    ;{ me jestertype?

    for the dialogue ...
    i get in on the 9 colours given by bruno ...
    repeat:
    Infrared > red > orange > yellow > green > turquoise > blue > violet > ultraviolet
    Them 9 resonate on my sort of pre-awakening beliefsystem that indeed (informed about cosmic science revelations) 2 not visible chakra crystals - outside the human body vehicle - are added to the known 7 more visible/sensible/universalised ones ... enrichening the human individual potentially especially in collective intelligence (mind-mind/spirit) spheres.

    Adopting the 9 here give me the standard colour spectrum that i live ...
    All other colours from that perspective on i consider as mutual subcontactual spheres that catalyse the more spiritual & radiant ones ... which is the one governing our service over here.

    CdG

    each human being is an expression of free will;

    where the source of light alignes evolution continiously healing

    (which makes me trust)
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  •  10-03-2006, 12:03 PM 10142 in reply to 8793

    Re: Cute and clever, though seemingly unecessary and confusing.

    "What happens when humans develop to the 10th stage? What color will this system assign to it then?"

    Hi, just my three cents. Perhalps when we get to level ten we won't have to have this conversation and a color system will be a little meaningless...hence "Clear-Light" moves into the invisible spectrum.

    With Love, John

    "The real voyage of discovery lies not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes." Marcel Proust
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  •  10-03-2006, 12:21 PM 10144 in reply to 10142

    Re: Cute and clever, though seemingly unecessary and confusing.

    of course ...
    each system, each quadrant ... is obsolete when silence prevails ...
    thats about words and communicative vibrations people exchange ...
    nature way to survive ...
    colours can help to image the digital relatively poor discussions on fora as this one ...

    see it from the heart when acting ... when in dialogue ... for the better understanding ...
    of all sides we need so heart, eh hard ...

    well, sort of propose ... & forget it anyway ...



    each human being is an expression of free will;

    where the source of light alignes evolution continiously healing

    (which makes me trust)
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  •  10-03-2006, 2:05 PM 10154 in reply to 8793

    • edison is not online. Last active: 01-27-2007, 7:33 PM edison
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    Re: Cute and clever, though seemingly unecessary and confusing.

    The nice thing about the visible color spectrum pallete is that there is a nice mathematical progression. (Going from red to blue is a direction of increasing frequency, or number of oscillations per second.)   Additionally, if one looks at the latest scales, I believe ultraviolet is used as the current "peak" of development and there are still remains quite a bit of the electromagnetic spectrum that is a higher frequencies than ultraviolet. (Deep UV, X-ray, cosmic ray is the standard terminology in the physics realm.)   So, the upper limit is not capped; at least not yet.

     

     

    BT

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  •  10-03-2006, 5:15 PM 10165 in reply to 10154

    • geomo is not online. Last active: 12-11-2006, 7:41 AM geomo
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    Re: Cute and clever, though seemingly unecessary and confusing.

    Remember ROY G BIV?

    Red Orange Yellow Green Blue Indigo Violet

    In psychic work, if one believes in reading auras, (when you close your eyes, what color are the amorphous shapes you see?...some believe this is an indication of your energetic level of development) then these are valid colors to consider. Many note that at the highest end of the spectrum, and the color associated with halos in pictures of saints, etc., is gold.

    Keith
    Peace. It does not mean to be in a place where there is no noise, trouble or hard work. It means to be in the midst of those things and still be calm in your heart. -unknown
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  •  10-04-2006, 5:33 AM 10198 in reply to 10165

    Re: Cute and clever, though seemingly unecessary and confusing.

    I haven't read all of the debate and I apologise in advance for that, it's not because i'm not interested, also sorry if I repeat what someone else has already said.

    In a developmental scheme the amount of levels can be arbitrary depending on where you want to draw the line in what counts as 'a new level' as they are really grades of growth or 'waves' of unfolding.  This means that Ken's spectrum is not The Final Word on human potential but it does for now as a very comprehensive guide. If we look at the colours we can see they blend into eachother, so we could say that there's already more than 10 there and there's plenty of room to fit a new one in.

    Spiral Dynamics: well, it doesn't account for different lines or if it does it end s up mushing them into one label. The word 'vMEME' comes in part from Richard Dawkins work that proposes there is such a thing called a meme that is like genes, but for values. He proposes that memes are like a gene or virus that want to reproduce themselves and use are psyches in order to do so. This view has been discreditted by some thinkers (footnote of Int. Spirituality) and I believe comes from Dawkins Evolutionary perspective, which also holds the reason we are moral is because moral monkeys survived better so now we feel we should be moral, not a fantastic reason for me but part of the answer I'm sure.

     

     

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  •  10-06-2006, 3:57 AM 10389 in reply to 10198

    Re: Cute and clever, though seemingly unecessary and confusing.

    yogafrog:

    sorry if I repeat what someone else has already said.



    to me this is what it is really about:

    if you say or type a thing from your hearth right now ...
    it can never be a thing said before by another man on that very moment ...

    so, lets forget about all those names claiming ... (etc)
    this is what this site, this stream of awakening is about ...
    come on through to the o...wners side ...

    which in a mind - mind contact is mutual too ...
    no past no future
    just us
    here
    and all the colours the vibrations the expressions , you name it present in purpose
    CdG

    each human being is an expression of free will;

    where the source of light alignes evolution continiously healing

    (which makes me trust)
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  •  10-14-2006, 10:29 AM 11092 in reply to 10389

    Re: Cute and clever, though seemingly unecessary and confusing.

    Attachment: P7270438_merge.jpg
    M E R G E
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  •  10-22-2006, 2:36 PM 12029 in reply to 11092

    Re: Cute and clever, though seemingly unecessary and confusing.

    Q U O T E

    each human being is an expression of free will;

    where the source of light alignes evolution continiously healing

    (which makes me trust)
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  •  12-27-2006, 4:20 PM 17269 in reply to 12029

    • anders is not online. Last active: 01-02-2007, 4:30 PM anders
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    Re: Cute and clever, though seemingly unecessary and confusing.

    Hi folks
    to add something more here - 

    I liked it when Ken went over to using the actual spectrum as a metaphor for his "spectrum of conciousness".    One reason is that i think the "political" value laden associations connected to some of the colors in SD is , and has been no good when it comes to promoting the clear and free thinking. I fear that he actually kept the red and green in the same  places just to be able to stick to his favourite argument about the red-green boomeritis thing, even doing that when he had a chance to use the real ROYGBIV scheme.

    The real spectrum will be much easier to understand and use for new people in the integral gang of course.  (Or would have been, had he dared to go all the way, including putting orange and yellow between red and green) 

    The one thing that might be lost seems to be the built in use of warm and cold colors in SD, illustrating a  shift between yin-focus and yang-focus  up the scale.  If we talk about the  "colors" as frequencies, we can, as was suggested before,   reach  further into  new levels.

    Another interesting trait of the actual physical spectrum is,  that you can bend it into a circle,  adding purple, (which is actually missing as a separate frequency, but only appears as a mixture) and the getting the color circle.   The spectrum in that way transcends and includes the two versions of development having an element of return, and the element of reaching forever beyond, integrating some of Ken's different renewed theories,  ... but that is another story


    and as some of you say, of course   - this is all a mind game , looked at from  certain perspective or perspectivelessness or......................

    anders
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  •  01-03-2007, 5:23 AM 17634 in reply to 17269

    Re: Cute and clever, though seemingly unecessary and confusing.

    "anders" is dutch word for "different"

    sorry, if you donot like this association (just skip me?)

    and anders i think you are right that it (earthbody) or its (life?) is all a mind game as an exercise for the next match on the day of that match to come ...

    and as we all know ... a match is simply a word to identify the Lucifer Principle : striking friction to get a fire ... and clean it all enjoying the smoke ...

    waterpipe
    all dis/perspectives through your dreamed perceptions
    and reunite the rainbowbridge of e/merging minds skyhigh

    s'ace


    each human being is an expression of free will;

    where the source of light alignes evolution continiously healing

    (which makes me trust)
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