The Reincarnation/Evolution Over Lifetimes Thread
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Started: 04-24-2006 5:11 PM
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  24 Apr 2006, 5:11 PM
timelody is not online. Last active: 12/27/2007 9:48:08 PM timelody



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The Reincarnation/Evolution Over Lifetimes Thread

Hi everyone,

I would like to begin a “reincarnation” thread where we could both discuss issues, thoughts, teaching and also share personal experiences, intuitions and so forth and also, perhaps most importantly, discuss what it means for Spirit's unfolding evolution.

It is surprising that, at least from my understanding, the Wisdom Traditions that teach reincarnation (or transmigration) are rather silent about the details. Then again, when you think about it, it is not so surprising since - as Sogyal Rimpoche says in his Tibetan Book of Living and Dying - the fact of the matter is that, even with something like a near death experience, we still have not died; living people haven’t died . . . so how much can you really know or tell about it beyond speculation, intuition, perhaps an insight or a memory or two, etc.? And if we continue onward after death and migrate to a new embodiment, well, we’re not exactly popping out and telling everybody all about it. There’s still a great deal clouded in mystery even if you would believe - or even in fact “know” - that it is something real.

As far as I know, the only great source on the subject at all is Padmasambhava’s Tibetan Book of the Dead, and as much as I think we can still (and need to) gain profound insights from that, one thing that is missing - and entirely missing from ALL talk of reincarnation - is Evolution. (And karma is about evolution not just meanigless mistakes you need to "fix.")

So I think this is important to discuss becasue we are still treding in unknown and mysterious territory. So the first important topic for discussion is . . .

1.) Evolution Over Lifetimes; or perhaps Overall Kosmic Evolution of which we are a part.

(This was in fact a major issue for me which eventually lead me away from nearly all of the wisdom traditions and even something like Theosophy, because I could just find no serious mention of the idea . . . which seems to me vitally important. I respect the fact that Ken does not much speak of this in his work, but since it does seem to be such a relevant topic I would like to see if we can develop it some here. For those who have not read it the Integral Theory of Subtle Energy, which touches upon this a little is here http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/books/kosmos/excerptG/part1.cfm/)


Now, this leads directly to the next topic, which will have to involve the Vedanta/Vajrayana model of the Three Vehicles.

The Frontal Self
The Deeper Psychic
The Witness

Say Goodbye to the Frontal:
I was quite surprised to learn only recently that the Jewish tradition does not believe in an afterlife. Thirteen years of Catholic school and no mention of this ever. But it seems to me this makes a lot of things, historically, make sense. (i.e. Jesus “opened the doorway” to eternal life.)
If anyone would like to further educate me on this, please feel free.

But I think there is profound true-but-partial Truth in this sort of a teaching and even in the more modern rational atheist notion which is similar: When you die, that’s it. Six feet under and no more. It is a reality of the gross realm and gross Frontal Self (including body and mind and all identity with them, all gross level relationships, etc.).
And yet, we will continue in the gross realm in several profound ways.
First, through other people’s memories of you and how you have touched their lives (for good or ill).
Second, through whatever “works” you may have left behind. If you have written books, created art, founded new teachings, institutions, etc. (This is big for the rational achiever, and again for good or ill.)
Third, quite ancient but still relevant, through your “blood” and offspring. (The recent advancements in genealogy have profound new revelations to offer for this.)

All of that is completely valid and I believe very fertile ground not only for mediation but for inspired life practice. But the fact of the matter is that the gross level body and mind (the Frontal Self) will be dissolved . . . and isn’t coming back.

And so, whatever gross level evolution we have accomplished, will cease. How we can effect continuing gross level evolution beyond ourselves is, in itself a wonderful topic for discussion (with many of the ideas mentioned above).

So perhaps that is topic number two . .

2.) Effecting Gross Level Evolution after our individual (or collective) deaths.

Which leads us then to the Deeper Psychic (or Soul).

Deeper Intuition, Purpose and Meaning-a Subtle Soul:
I have since a very young age found no discrepancy between the Insight/Intuition behind the Christian idea of Purgatory and Reincarnation. To me, they seem to based upon the same profound insight:

It does not take much semi-deep introspection and sensitivity to see that when people die, there is a great deal left unresolved or unfinished, or better, imperfect.

My feeling is that for the Christian tradition after the “Good News” that there was such a thing as Eternal Life (and/or the related Hope, Faith and Intuition - an evolutionary advance in itself, to consciousness beyond the gross realm), the rather rigid mythic conception of a very short lived “one shot deal” and then it’s settled for all “eternity” quickly set in, but eventually (for some immediately) presented fundamental problems. (It still does today.)

So other words, identification with the gross realm it’s Frontal Self only, presents it’s own problems and proposed solutions (which are valid), but now a new identification with the Subtle Soul presents a whole new set of issues. Wait a minute, it’s not over when the body goes; I will still have to somehow account for myself and all my actions here, even after the body dies. This is a profoundly deeper Intuition that offers vastly more purpose and meaning. (I believe, still to be explored.)

There is no Biblical reference to Purgatory as such, but the New Testament (and even old) verses used to support it all have to do with Spiritual Imperfection. There will be no entry into Heaven without it, but that leads eventually to the question, Does the slightest imperfection justly lead one straight to Hell instead?

So there was now an even deeper insight behind it. Such quick and immediate “judgment” just would not be fair, nor based upon genuine Love. No even semi-loving parent would ever be able to act upon such a thing (in fact, in modern societies it’s illegal!), nor even a good friend or neighbor. How could that be Eternal Law?

It was realized that there had to be an intermediate state. And I believe this is perfectly synonymous with the ideas of karma and reincarnation, and a continuing evolution towards perfection and/or enlightenment.

I presnted this idea to a Catholic prayer group I was a part of way back when I was still a teenager; I said "well then, how do you know we are not in purgatory now?" I will never forget the look on their faces. A literal lightbulb went off in everyone's head. They were not only comletely receptive, but fascinated and delighted to ponder. It gave their spiritual lives a glint of possibly profound new meaning (and a little less fear).

That’s where I will leave off for now.  But here is a summary:

We must be concerned with

Evolution of the frontal, gross physical body and the entire gross physical realm,
Evolution of the Subtle Soul (which includes both Psychic Body and Subtle Body)

And then later we cn get into the Causal Body and the continuity of consciousness, desire, etc.


I am hoping for a deep and engaging discussion. Any thoughts, insights, questions and/or experiences to share?




the essential foundation for spiritual awakening is a whole person, not a fractured one
  
  25 Apr 2006, 5:16 AM
elementstew is not online. Last active: 7/14/2006 10:31:10 AM elementstew

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Re: The Reincarnation/Evolution Over Lifetimes Thread

"I was quite surprised to learn only recently that the Jewish tradition does not believe in an afterlife. Thirteen years of Catholic school and no mention of this ever. But it seems to me this makes a lot of things, historically, make sense. (i.e. Jesus “opened the doorway” to eternal life.)"

Interesting. I hadn't thought about it that way before. I doubt that the idea was original to Jesus, but he definitely popularized it. It does seem a radical departure from old doctrine, highly significant. I've also heard that reincarnation was a popular notion in earier christianity. Jesus is even quoted asking if others recognize...oh drat, help me out Mary.

I've heard that the idea of purgatory was born with Dante's Inferno.

Personally, I've found the idea of reincarnation to be very helpful. It has deepened a sense of responsibility in that one is eternally accountable for one's actions - death doesn't let one off the hook. Rebirth provides opportunities to correct the errors of previous mistakes.

I also feel that an understanding and appreciation of time correlates closely with spiritual development. Fundementalists tend to have a shallow understanding of time (the earth is only 4,000 years old). Grander vision reflects deeper spiritual development.

One of my favorite authors in this matter is Dr Brian Weiss. The case studies are beautiful stories with heavy themes of acceptence, redemption and above all, love.

http://www.brianweiss.com/




www.integralwiki.net/index.php?title=Main_Page
 
    
  25 Apr 2006, 7:02 AM
timelody is not online. Last active: 12/27/2007 9:48:08 PM timelody



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Re: The Reincarnation/Evolution Over Lifetimes Thread

 "I've also heard that reincarnation was a popular notion in earier christianity. Jesus is even quoted asking if others recognize...oh drat, help me out Mary."

There was a notion popularized by one of the Shirley Maclaine books that reincarnation was scratched from Christianity in 325, but it is not really in direct alignment with the facts as far as I know.

The only possibly related issue that was dealt with back then was "pre-existence of the soul" and in certain ways Arius and Origen were declared heretical for ideas related to that. This idea-that there is no pre-existence of the soul- is contradicted in the Gospel of Thomas: "If the soul creates the body it is a wonder. But if the body creates the soul it is a wonder of wonders." There is a very strong current within Christian thought that understands it like this; the moment of conception is the moment your soul is created, the body creates the soul. Again, identified very heavily with only the frontal. (But, yeah, help us out Mary.)

The Biblical verses some people use to support a Christian idea of reincarnation I find to be a little over-interpreted too: "Who do you say that I am? You are John the Baptist. You are Elijah." I don't think that needs to mean people were walking around with an ongoing belief in reincarnation, especially when the Jewish tradition does not even believe in an afterlife. But again, any help from anyone appreciated.

But you bring up a really good point stew, the evolution of an understanding of time (which is related also to an understanding of space).

For one, I think that's something easily forgotten or missed looking into people who lived long ago, and perhaps even easier to miss now.

The fundamentalists is generally stuck dead set at conop and the understanding of time is not at all what it is at formal operations and higher. The cognitive abilities just do not allow for much past and future understanding, particularly the future which requires hypothesis and certain operational abilitites that only come about at formop.




the essential foundation for spiritual awakening is a whole person, not a fractured one
  
  25 Apr 2006, 8:36 AM
Helene is not online. Last active: 6/27/2007 7:13:53 AM Helene

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Re: The Reincarnation/Evolution Over Lifetimes Thread

'Before Elijah was I AM' - been awhlie since I looked at the Bible ...but didn't Jesus say something like that when he and few of his studenets  (went up on some hill-thing) , who feel asleep..then one awakened and saw Jesus Christ standing ... all in white.... light,  with Elijah and another prophet?

Like a mini death it is... in deep dreamless sleep, we are not burdened by anything. Without psychological, time-bound karmic history, we are ... free ... now...we always had, we always will have  eterninty.
 So in that sense, One could say reincarnation doesn't exist, no?

On the other hand , it's very obvious to see evolution of the soul happens naturally. How could it not? 

In Wilber's The Eye Of Spirit, in the Born Again chapter , he talks about how the

".......individual  psyche or consciousness is composed of two distinct essences or drops (tigle). In the heart center of every human, there is the empty essence (tigle) of consciousness, didvided into two layers or two drops: (1) the :" liftime indestructible  drop," which develops during during particular liftime, but perishes upon biological death, and (2), within or interior to the liftime indestructible drop, the "eternal indestructible drop", which lasts until Buddhahood and thus transmigrates from life to life until radical Enlightenment.  This interior drop is, in my terminology, the psychic/subtle being - which I also deliberately refer to as "soul", since that, too, lasts until actual spiritual resurrection in the causal/nondual Divine Domaine of pure Emptiness.
:
Last Fall, someone posted on this gab-forum , KW 's long essey  on reincarnation, where he  explains how it's possible to explain hypothetically, using the 4 quadrants map-model , how the soul 4-ever fits in , within  the AQAL.
Made sense.

Ages ago one woman , who got my fone # from my daughter , (a complete stranger)  who came for Reiki sessions got all weepy and funny excited  the day she met me ... "remember the pillars were on that side and the temple was ?....(blahblah) ...you were a very gifted healer..the youngest...they killed you...."
 
She completly meant it . She literally saw what she was describing.
And there was I...Smile smiling politely.
 I sure as heck had no proof of any such notion/thing, but couldn't help thinking "NOT THIS TIME!"  . Not this time cruel world. Not this time! you will not  get rid of me.
THAT made complete sense to me.

The only reason I chose Robert Thurman's, (of all those other copies lined up all in row),  copy of The Tibetan Book Of The Dead - Liberation Through Understanding In The Between, was because he was a 'western-man'. I knew him not. Didn't know what he looked like . Nada. I thought because of my western reading orientation, the material would be more suitable to my mind-set.

A couple of years later I got hold of a God and Buddha in Dialogue - with Thurman and Deepak Chopra videotape, Robert said somt. like 'my Mongolian teacher gave me his copy and said "do it,  you will need it" I had no desire to, but because he said that  I translated it' 

I'm glad he did..... Mucho xoxoxo Mongolian teacherBig Smile and RobertBig Smile

One day, when alone in the middle of reading I became overcome....and knelt on the floor... with eyes closed I opened the book placed it on the floor and touched it with my forhead , with a request for a blessing....lingering moment later when I opened my eyes I beheld Sambhava's  tangka-image , the one where he is seated in his Copper Mountain with Yeshe Tsoygal and Mandarava , Avalokiteshrava and Amitabha.....
with his right hand raised in a gesture (of) benevolnet blessing.

I think that was a moment, a 'makse sense' moment,  I shall never forget.

OK all kvetched out 4 now! ketchya laterStick out tongue

H

 



 


 
    
  25 Apr 2006, 6:55 PM
timelody is not online. Last active: 12/27/2007 9:48:08 PM timelody



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Re: The Reincarnation/Evolution Over Lifetimes Thread
H it's called "The Transfiguration" where Jesus goes up on the mountain with some disciples and has an extreme spiritual makeover, and then talks to Moses and ElijahAngel

Just a quick note on you post . . . you're "makes sense" moment at the end; if I am interpreting correctly, to me this was like a sudden LIVING REALITY moment? As in, no longer is this just concept or imagination or thoughts but a living experienced reality?

I just think that's the direction we need to go in with reincarnation - if it's real, it's NOW . . . kind deep for a quick post without exlaining mroe . . .



the essential foundation for spiritual awakening is a whole person, not a fractured one
  
  25 Apr 2006, 7:19 PM
timelody is not online. Last active: 12/27/2007 9:48:08 PM timelody



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Re: The Reincarnation/Evolution Over Lifetimes Thread
Oh, Helene, the other thing you mentoined . . .


Let's say (hypothetically) it was real . . . is this the sort of thing one just walks up to a stragner and starts saying? "They killed you!" Not exactly a friendly "Hello, How do you do?" Pretty rude in any case if ya ask me.

But that's just the sort of thing I want to weed out and get away from if this thread get's going. It's just too easy for people -even ourselves- to get all kooky and start imagining "past lives" and stuff and even imagine and believe you know other people's . .

anyway, enogh for now.


the essential foundation for spiritual awakening is a whole person, not a fractured one
 
    
  25 Apr 2006, 7:23 PM
tamgoddess is not online. Last active: 1/10/2008 3:42:47 PM tamgoddess



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Re: The Reincarnation/Evolution Over Lifetimes Thread
If Jesus said, "Who do you say that I am? You are John the Baptist. You are Elijah," it would seem like he's really saying that we're all one, rather than referring to reincarnation, which is a rather literal, conop idea in itself, if you think about it. Very linear.

I tend to think of reincarnation as more fluid, something that isn't necessarily like a genealogical line. More like a field of energy. People get past life memories, but where do they come from? It seems like they come from a sort of Kosmic library of experience, rather than from one person's experience. Especially since if we were really remembering all of the past lives that have happened, we'd be remembering a lot of dishwashing, ditch-digging and other assorted minutiae that the vast majority of people do to survive, rather than being Cleopatra and Einstein and whatnot.

Liz




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  25 Apr 2006, 8:15 PM
timelody is not online. Last active: 12/27/2007 9:48:08 PM timelody



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Re: The Reincarnation/Evolution Over Lifetimes Thread
tamgoddess I had a feeling you were commenting on this and lo and behold I look and her you areYes SpooooooooookySmile (J/K)

Anyway, I'm with ya on the Jesus. If there was any such doctrine of reincarnation in the Judeo-Christian tradition, why would there not be more evidence of it? We now know a lot about dozens and dozens of early Christian groups and none really say anythin like reincarnation in the east.

I think you are right about the other things you say, but I think there also might be some differnetiation necessary. I can't comment very much now, but I found this I scribbled up over a year ago . . . perhas to help prod some more ideas . . .



Imagine suddenly discovering yourself out in the middle of a nowhere place, with completely unfamiliar surroundings. In fact, it's like a desert, there is nothing anywhere as far as the eye can see and you know you are a long, long way from home and a long, long way from everything you know and loved. In fact, now here, you are aware that all of that is completely GONE. (perhaps think of your car breaking down and you know it can't be fixed. And no cell phone service.) You have absolutely nothing left. EVERYTHING that you knew, loved, hated and were familiar with, everything about your entire life was gone, and you are left in the middle of nowhere.

Is it any wonder that you would start longing for everything to come back; longing to somehow get back to everything you knew? Is it any wonder you would find yourself unable to accept the place and the state you find yourself in? -That your very heart and soul would start pounding and pulsing for a return? Is it any wonder that you would start LOOKING for a way to get back? - Start looking for a way to find the ones that you loved? -or even just to find SOMEONE or SOMETHING you are familiar with? Remember, you know that all of that is gone. You know that everyone you knew and loved -friend, family or foe -are all gone. But . . . you're still here! . . . somehow, somewhere THEY must be too!

It is inevitable that you will start looking for "home" once again. Imagine then you see a trace of someone or something you knew! Would you not persue it with every fiber of your being; every ounce of will you could muster?

This is how one should look upon the doctrine of reincarnation, of a cyclical process of life, death, bardo and rebirth involving “desire” and “attachment.” Setting aside any "negative" ideas about attachment, contemplate it's reality. OF COURSE we would want to come back! OF COURSE we would want to be reunited with the people that we knew and loved. And OF COURSE we would also want to SET THINGS STRAIGHT with our enemies or people who wronged us- OF COURSE we would be attracted to them and to all of that and everything else.

Think about it. Death is REAL, as real as your life right now, in this moment. It WILL happen -to all of us. It is inevitable and very often comes suddenly and without warning.

Suddenly, now, everything is literally gone. It's all NOTHING. Yet here you still are, without a body. OF COURSE you would want to acquire a new one . . . at any cost!

Why would it be any surprise at all that you would seek as hard as you possibly could to get back "home?" And why would it be any surprise that you would also seek with all you might to end up meeting once again all the ones that you loved, hated or at least were familiar with in some way? If we are all on a certain road to a fate where everything we know and value WILL be taken away, . . . why would it be any wonder that we would want it all back?



the essential foundation for spiritual awakening is a whole person, not a fractured one
 
    
  26 Apr 2006, 2:16 AM
infimitas is not online. Last active: 1/14/2008 3:37:52 AM infimitas



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Re: The Reincarnation/Evolution Over Lifetimes Thread
 tamgoddess wrote:
If Jesus said, "Who do you say that I am? You are John the Baptist. You are Elijah,"

I don't have time at the moment to write a longer reply, but I am reminded of the Gospel of Thomas, 13.

Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to someone and tell me whom I am like."
Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a righteous angel."
Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher."
Thomas said to him, "Master, my mouth is wholly incapable of saying whom you are like."
Jesus said, "I am not your master. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring which I have measured out."
And he took him and withdrew and told him three things. When Thomas returned to his companions, they asked him, "What did Jesus say to you?"
Thomas said to them, "If I tell you one of the things which he told me, you will pick up stones and throw them at me; a fire will come out of the stones and burn you up."



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  26 Apr 2006, 8:52 AM
Helene is not online. Last active: 6/27/2007 7:13:53 AM Helene

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Re: The Reincarnation/Evolution Over Lifetimes Thread

Hey there all...
Kool reflection timelody.

It's  all unfolding in the now-time, that's what  'time's' function is for, no?

I heard a bang-noise  at the door, and knew they came to get me..."they are going to kill you" - said husband . "I know", I thought. siting up now... with fear-racing heart.
In a narrow cot with husband...very dim lighting. Several men at the far end of the room.
As real as it gets.

Had a sense daughter was behind the wheel......(?...maybe "daughter driving", because I never had my own vehicle ?")  will the car make the turn?
"Am I dead?" ... so silent... clear pale blue  sky .. with a solid black and red ribbon of light in a distant horizon....so silent.

Yah, I would do anything, I would search high and low to be with people again, to see real flowers an' stuff...to eat and drink and dance an'.......

H



 
    
  26 Apr 2006, 4:45 PM
iconasostacles is not online. Last active: 6/23/2006 10:37:19 AM iconasostacles



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Re: The Reincarnation/Evolution Over Lifetimes Thread

"Other life" experiences are definitely available to living persons -- but the mortal relationship to time does not much exceed frontal person and the flesh carraige. 

Traces of mutliple incarnations are enfolded within the experience of this life and are obviously of much greater significance once the gross is stripped away and we are left with the subtle as our primary data. 

Yet Time is as malleable and oceanic in the subtle realms as multiple-incarnationality is "suggestively tenuous" in the gross realm.




"One must be a sea -- to receive a polluted river and not be defiled." Zarathustra
  
  28 Apr 2006, 8:13 AM
Helene is not online. Last active: 6/27/2007 7:13:53 AM Helene

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Re: The Reincarnation/Evolution Over Lifetimes Thread

I actually wrote scribbled in my dream journal "past life?" after a short , feel-poignant dream in 1986'.


Happy ... "garden setting" looking at some picture fotos, "one picture cought my eye and I knew instantly it was me - very diferrent me. "I" looked as tho I had very prviledged life" ..."That's what I looked like! past life?" "It was extremly fleeting but I felt deep longing"
"When I wanted (with all my might-add-on) to see that picture again desperatly - I couldn't" "deep feelings".

Yah I had many 'longing' and 'searching' dream episodes, but that was the first, the most 'nostalgic'.


Any more shares?! youhooo! cyber-trollies, cat bit yer tongues?Stick out tongue


 
    
  28 Apr 2006, 10:09 AM
iconasostacles is not online. Last active: 6/23/2006 10:37:19 AM iconasostacles



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Re: The Reincarnation/Evolution Over Lifetimes Thread
*

I so often enjoy Helene's posts but just as often find no appropriately sized "docking bay" in order to respond within the flow of the thread.  Perhaps I will just send post-cards.  Images of popular destinations with my face hidden somewhere.  A sort of "Where Iconasostacles?" series which would eventually become a children's book that she I could co-author.

Shares?

A few years ago, whilst in Japan, I was spontaneously set upon (over a period of days) with a whole "story" of extremly tangible extra-lives.  They ran from Sumer to Egypt to India to England to France to U.S and flowed smoothly into my present birth recollections (and the pseudo-mythic conception tales I hear from Mother).  Even now these "windows" feel very near, very acessible -- and they synch with various short "regression" experiments I attempted in adolescence.  More detail would require a book -- or least a sturdy comic -- and might be more self-aggrandizing than I have time for right now. 

Something I have heard very little discussion of is the positions of multiple-incarnationality upon an AQAL grid.  Since this is a tale of one's basic template manifesting multiple times (whether sequentially or in parallel) through physical bodies, shall we put all these bodies in the Upper Right quadrant?  The "this lifetime" awareness of them seems to fall predominatly in the UL -- but the implications for the UR requires a kind of wave-like, or split-stream understanding of what "the physical body" is doing.

*


"One must be a sea -- to receive a polluted river and not be defiled." Zarathustra
  
  28 Apr 2006, 2:37 PM
timelody is not online. Last active: 12/27/2007 9:48:08 PM timelody



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Re: The Reincarnation/Evolution Over Lifetimes Thread

Alright Icon, now we’re talking. I think the AQAL map can offer great orientation for this subject.

Setting all else aside, let us begin with an individual, and look at the individual AQAL map. And to be clear let us use it as Ken most often has it mapped out; that is, up to centuric-vision logic. So, what we might call a full bodymind human being.

What I think is most profound is that no matter where we would ultimately evolve to on that map as individuals, at the termination of this life everything that shows up in that AQAL map of the individual is gone, dissolves, will be no more.

UR
Now, most obviously and readily understood is that the UR exterior “it” body will be burned, decay or be cremated etc. and no longer, no more, never again will anything or anyone ever have anything to do with that body. It’s gone.

LR
Moving to the LR, this will have some determination as to how you die, or rather, what conditions you die under (nursing home, hospice, laying in a gutter) but other than that pretty much loses all meaning and importance once the process of dying is well underway, certain, and/or nearly complete. So, as far as the individual is concerned, it’s more or less meaningless already. “Burned away,” “dissolves,” etc. (i.e. a dying person no longer cares how much money they make or where they live, etc.)

LL
Even more profound, I think, is that any gross level manifestation of relationships, in the LL, will also end and be dissolved and “burn away.” Yes that is on the gross level, but I don’t think the profundity of that should be dismissed. We identify one another with names and faces and personalities and all kinds of things that exist on the gross. So it should not be any wonder that should we have no gross level recollection should we enter a new gross level embodiment.

UL
Finally, yes, it seems quite clear that -at least looking at it from the conventional (gross level) perspective, anything that is going to continue has got to be looked for in the interior UL.

But even that, as we regularly identify with ourselves, will all dissolve! Not just gross level body, but gross level mind will also be dissolved. And so again, is it any wonder that we should have no immediate memories? (It is also quite scary and indeed great motivation for spiritual practice and nurturing a conscious identification of the subtler realms (or deeper/higher).

Now, as I understand it, it seems generally acceptable to assume that upon the moment of death the gross mind will remain for a bit. I believe the Tibetan Book says this and it seems also quite evidenced in Near Death Experiences. The NDE’s are documented not only in individual experiential testimony, but brain activities have been documented as well. (The brain activities have just been interpreted from a flatland worldview.)

But soon enough, everything from body to mind, exterior and interior, will dissolve and we are left now in consciousness at the Subtle. Apparently this is said -and it seems to make perfect sense to me -to be like the dream state. The more conscious you are before hand, the more lucidly you will attend this realm and phase of the process.

But then that body eventually burns away also and we are left with a Casual body. It is the Casual body which, as I understand it, shall we say “holds the karma” and consequently causes a new process of embodiment to begin; first to the Subtle and finally back to the gross and a whole new gross AQAL emerges.

Further, this whole new individual gross AQAL is in an entirely new surrounding AQAL environment! (example, nobody, but nobody will be having presently any past life memories or recognition's or associations with using the internet and a computer or an pod. (And more in depth probably cars and TV and airplanes, etc.) That's all new. (Perhaps there are exceptions.)

So, for sure, no question, any type of “memory” or association or sentiment or anything having to do with “past lives” has got to reside, not only in the UL interior, but actually off of it entirely if we are just looking at what is mapped out most often. (As in the front pages of SES.) It would have to be the Causal Witness which is beyond all of that (perhaps also some Sublte?) and which is why it is so hard to “remember” without some serious stimulation . . . or that consciousness was already fully awake and “present” all the way through the process. (Certainly evolving higher consciousness makes a difference too.)

So let us say we "meet" another Causal Witness we "knew before." Some type of deep recognition will take place, conscious or not. The same with a geographical location, a deep interest (like music, art), sometimes physical objects (trains, mountains) etc.

That's all for now . . . . (sorry if this was too long!Tongue Tied Smile)




the essential foundation for spiritual awakening is a whole person, not a fractured one
 
    
  28 Apr 2006, 2:56 PM
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Re: The Reincarnation/Evolution Over Lifetimes Thread
Helene, I don’t want you to feel bad because I responded to icon and not to you . . . or is this just an excuse to gab more? For me,the truth of the matter, and one of the reasons I started this thread, is that I have too may “memories,” realizations, associations, recognition's (of karma and relationships, aspirations, etc.) to even begin. And I have learned, I think, over many, many years of work and introspection (and sometimes even physical investigation) to differentiate between ridiculous “I was Beethoven!” nonsense, and real life . . stuff! Okay, so here is one:

I arrive in [unnamed] geographical area. From the moment we leave the airport I feel as if “I have been here before.” It is so strong from the onset I seriously question whether I was here as a child . . or something! Not the case, not in a millions years. Entire family never left the midwest. The feeling only gets stronger and stronger, literally almost to ecstatic heights- this recognition and feeling of “coming home!” All of this, of course, makes no sense to conventional mind, body etc. But as we finally reach towards the destination - and the smell of the ocean and the vast foliage and . . . so much . . . this little voice in my head literally starts leaping for joy almost, and saying “This is it [name of not present person]! We’re here! We’re home!” All of this involuntary, none of it “making sense” and the feeling continues so strong that I just can not even call anyone to tell them I arrived for over three days, while I am lost in this . . . reverie . . . or whatever you would like to call it . . . deep and haunitng at times. Later (few months) another [unnamed] person comes to visit (not same as unnamed mentioned above). I say “so what do you think?” The answer. “Oh, I just love it here. I could live here. It’s just feels like I’m home.”



the essential foundation for spiritual awakening is a whole person, not a fractured one
  
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