Re: Trademarking AQAL?
Theory Au Naturel
Thread Starter: ClearSky
Started: 01-15-2006 10:26 AM
Replies: 76

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  15 Jan 2006, 10:26 AM
ClearSky is not online. Last active: 6/22/2006 10:04:38 AM ClearSky

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Trademarking AQAL?
(continued from the old forum)

 click here for the original thread

from an email announcing the upcoming Integral Life Practice (ILP) Seminars:

AQAL™

Is trademarking models and maps the way to encourage serious debate on the merits of AQAL?

I don't think so. What do you think?

No one to my knowledge, for example, has tried to trademark these
useful heuristic ideas, models, and thought experiments:


Plato's Cave

Monadology

Socratic Method

Chinese Room

Space-Time

Hilbert Space

Cartesian Coordinate System

Four Noble Truths

Great Chain of Being

Schrodinger's Cat

Twin Paradox

Cartesian Doubt

[8-|]


  
  15 Jan 2006, 11:19 AM
adastra is not online. Last active: 3/9/2007 10:22:48 AM adastra



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Re: Trademarking AQAL?
cross-posted from the old thread



uh...wha...? Are you guys still talking about trademarks? No, it's fascinating, seriously.

arthurzzzzzzzzz...



Seriously, why not link to the old thread (as I have done) so everybody can enjoy in full what may be one of the most significant debates of the early 21st century?  [8-)]

arthur



you've never seen everything \\\\|//// ( o o ) -o00o----(_)---o00o---
 
    
  15 Jan 2006, 1:45 PM
ClearSky is not online. Last active: 6/22/2006 10:04:38 AM ClearSky

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Re: Trademarking AQAL?
Good idea Arthur, thanks.  I think copy/pasting the thread-beginning post along with a link is a good idea.  It will depend on the thread of course, but in most cases I think you are right. I'll put a link in the opener right after posting this. I suppose you could make a case for providing a link only, but I would be reluctant to only provide the link -- some people (liz, for example) are having trouble accessing the old forum.

There are so many kinks and questions about the workings, features, and lack of features on this new forum that I'm guessing a lot of folks will be hanging out or staying with the old forum.

---------------------------------------

As to this thread's topic.  I think that, like most organizations and movements there will always those who favor thinking that leads to trademarking etc., and those who don't.

I enjoy debate, and I think this one is particularly important. May this debate and any other debates that arise be given a chance to flourish. And, of course, we can always let the sleeping dogs lie.

Cool

  
  15 Jan 2006, 3:12 PM
tamgoddess is not online. Last active: 11/6/2007 9:52:10 AM tamgoddess



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Re: Trademarking AQAL?


I can get to the old forum and read everything. I can't log in. So I can't post anything or get to my old mailbox. I'd love it if old threads were moved here via Arthur's suggestion of links.

Liz


AFGO
 
    
  18 Jan 2006, 2:30 PM
ClearSky is not online. Last active: 6/22/2006 10:04:38 AM ClearSky

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Re: Trademarking AQAL?

Attachment: dinosafpic.jpg
One of the problems with trademarking a philosophical or scientific model and idea is that it is then taken . . .

out of the meme-pool


and thereby excluded from the competitive process and interactions that would enable it to participate in the intellectual evolution of ideas.

Again, trademarking itself, when used appropriately, is fine, wonderful, to be welcomed.

But . . . what if, somehow, the biological equivalent of trademarking occurred a billion or so years ago -- we would not even be here, but the lucky Trademarcasaurus would be.


  
  18 Jan 2006, 4:42 PM
infimitas is not online. Last active: 11/10/2007 2:27:24 PM infimitas



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Re: Trademarking AQAL?
*groan*

Has Ken actually stated his reasons for the trademark?  For all I know he has absolutely no intention whatsoever to be a fascist and rigidly control everything AQAL, but just wants to prevent some corporation misusing it.  It seems to me that assuming evil intent is perhaps a bit presumptuous.


Gavin -- Man is the measurer of all things
 
    
  18 Jan 2006, 5:19 PM
adastra is not online. Last active: 3/9/2007 10:22:48 AM adastra



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Re: Trademarking AQAL?
*groan*

Has Ken actually stated his reasons for the trademark?  For all I know he has absolutely no intention whatsoever to be a fascist and rigidly control everything AQAL, but just wants to prevent some corporation misusing it.  It seems to me that assuming evil intent is perhaps a bit presumptuous.


Yeah, at some point it might be cool to hear from the BBG on it.  Might (if there is a god?) finally kill this issue, or at least mutate it (in true memetic evolutionary fashion).

Hmm...I would venture to say by now we pretty much know how CSG feels about trademarking AQAL.

arthur


you've never seen everything \\\\|//// ( o o ) -o00o----(_)---o00o---
  
  18 Jan 2006, 10:53 PM
ClearSky is not online. Last active: 6/22/2006 10:04:38 AM ClearSky

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Re: Trademarking AQAL?
Adastra wrote: I would venture to say by now we pretty much know how CSG feels about trademarking AQAL.


Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

btw, i shortened CSG to CS -- just plain ClearSky (no Guy).

Thanks for listening,
ClearSky



 
    
  19 Jan 2006, 1:45 AM
mcenter is not online. Last active: 10/20/2007 3:27:23 PM mcenter

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Re: Trademarking AQAL?

what about memeology and Spiral Dynamics?
I still stand by my last stand
its Ken's piece of the pie (AQUAL that is)




"Ω =∞x∞^∞" - Wayne Teasdale
  
  19 Jan 2006, 7:35 AM
elementstew is not online. Last active: 7/14/2006 10:31:10 AM elementstew

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Re: Trademarking AQAL?
Damn, just lost a post...


www.integralwiki.net/index.php?title=Main_Page
 
    
  19 Jan 2006, 7:59 AM
elementstew is not online. Last active: 7/14/2006 10:31:10 AM elementstew

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Re: Trademarking AQAL?
I'm going to have to read that thread about editing....

The post I lost was a psychoanalysis of KW and how the trademarking issue factors into play....trying again.

Most of this involves the self-identity line and how it relates to the growth into self and then to selfless.

First we need to look at selfless and what that really is. Two good historical examples of selflessness can be found with Jesus and Socrates. Both men were willing to die for thier principles (meme level messeges). They had faith that what they expoused was more important than thier mere mortal being. More examples might be found among the Founding Father who put thier lives on the line for the betterment of society and who all died in relative poverty. Mother Teresa lived a life in the service of others without seeking any personal gain. All of these seem like good examples of people who lived for things greater than themselves.

We should also look at KW's relationship with the green meme. Acedemia is a bastion of green. Acedemia has failed to acknowledge the works of KW. Because of this, KW has a bias against the entire meme. No wonder he favors blue which is kind of the arch-enemy of green.

KW has his sense of identity so tied-up with his life's work that he cant move beyond it. It represents his red ego and orange achievements. The trademarking and alledged hypercontrolling micromanagement of II stem from his sense of self and his lif'e work. Because he is so invested in his red ego and orange achievements, he cannot transcend into a stable permanent selfless state. Perhaps this is why he is so obsessed with meditation. Meditation provides a sense of selflessness, which he knows is the upper end of development. Therefore he must continually reinforce this sense by induceing a temporary state in place of what should be a permanent trait.


www.integralwiki.net/index.php?title=Main_Page
  
  19 Jan 2006, 2:40 PM
ClearSky is not online. Last active: 6/22/2006 10:04:38 AM ClearSky

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Re: Trademarking AQAL?

Attachment: legaldocument.jpg
elementstew wrote:
"We should also look at KW's relationship with the green meme. Acedemia is a bastion of green. Acedemia has failed to acknowledge the works of KW. Because of this, KW has a bias against the entire meme."
Plausible.

I think most of us hanging out here have been helped and inspired by Wilber's writings. So any criticism leveled at him, for the most part, does nothing more than underscore his humanity and all that goes with being human -- makes clear he is one of us -- who doesn't have problems with his or her ego? I'm sure not going to cast the first stone.

The world of copyright, profits, ownership, and trademarks is certainly a legitimate place to hang out. But science and philosophy, properly done, operate outside of that world.

The business world appropriates what science and philosophy discover.

We can argue over which enterprise -- scientific/philosophical vs. commercial/business -- is more appropriate for a given goal or activity, but whatever the outcome -- the scientific/philosophical and commercial/business realms maintain their mutual boundaries.

Trademarking is a necessity when you market educational products, which is what Wilber and I-I are doing.  And that's his choice. Research in psychology, philosophy, the arts, sciences will simply continue on without him.

This is not bad; it's what's happening, that's all.



 
    
  19 Jan 2006, 3:35 PM
infimitas is not online. Last active: 11/10/2007 2:27:24 PM infimitas



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Re: Trademarking AQAL?
 ClearSky wrote:
Research in psychology, philosophy, the arts, sciences will simply continue on without him [Ken Wilber].

Oh yeah, that's right, all those billions of people interested in AQAL are now abandoning it in droves because of those letters "TM".


Gavin -- Man is the measurer of all things
  
  19 Jan 2006, 3:50 PM
ClearSky is not online. Last active: 6/22/2006 10:04:38 AM ClearSky

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Re: Trademarking AQAL?
infimitas wrote: that's right, all those billions of people interested in AQAL are now abandoning it in droves because of those letters TM

No, not all of them, just some of them.  And, not necessarily abandoning, just looking on from a healthy distance at a very worthwhile educational outreach taking us to the next level.

This is simply what is happening whether we choose to acknowledge it or not. Do a google on Wilber.  A lot of it is mean-spirited, but not all of it.

And there's nothing wrong with this. I am just pointing it out.


 
    
  20 Jan 2006, 4:34 AM
infimitas is not online. Last active: 11/10/2007 2:27:24 PM infimitas



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Re: Trademarking AQAL?
So what's new?  People have been writing mean-spirited stuff about Ken for years.  I've yet to see any evidence that trademarking the term AQAL is causing significant numbers of people to leave the scene, yet you keep asserting that is precisely what will happen.  Maybe you've looked into the akashic records and seen the future?



Gavin -- Man is the measurer of all things
  
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