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effective technology of transformation/Zengar

Last post 04-17-2009, 1:35 AM by hermannmeyer. 6 replies.
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  •  12-03-2007, 4:26 PM 33004

    • hermannmeyer is not online. Last active: 11-22-2009, 5:22 AM hermannmeyer
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    effective technology of transformation/Zengar

    I thought I should share with you my interest in
    http://www.zengar.com/experience-neurofeedback/index.html

    Tell me what you think.
    I have found it extremely beneficial.

    Hermann
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  •  01-07-2008, 10:22 PM 35905 in reply to 33004

    • hermannmeyer is not online. Last active: 11-22-2009, 5:22 AM hermannmeyer
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    Re: effective technology of transformation/Zengar

    80 views and one month later and still no replies. I find this astonishing. There is an enormous amount of chatter about Holosynch. So there must be some degree of interest in making technology work for peoples brain. I think the main benefit of technology aided techniques is the avoidance of the "effort trap". Many folks contract with effort and are unable to "let go". If there is a method where you just "plug and play", so to speak, and let it do what it does, that by itself is aready a huge step in the right direction. If Holosynch gets a tick, Zengar should be a no brainer (pun intended:-) .
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  •  01-09-2008, 8:13 PM 36102 in reply to 35905

    Re: effective technology of transformation/Zengar

    Hang in, Hermann, if you will. We may not reach inner critical critical mass to respond to your interest and inquiry, yet - but maybe with time with it and with you, we'll stir to it more.
     Yo, ambo

    Ambo Suno
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  •  01-14-2008, 10:25 PM 36552 in reply to 36102

    • hermannmeyer is not online. Last active: 11-22-2009, 5:22 AM hermannmeyer
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    Re: effective technology of transformation/Zengar

    Thank you for your encouragement,  Ambo
    Here is a very nice summary from a very experienced Neurofeedback practitioner that I lifted from another forum (without permission, but I am sure she does not mind). It gives a faily concise  intro into the subject. It may be a better way to get people interested, rather than a weblink.
    I am using this system (ZENGAR) personally and will introduce it into my practice as a doctor as soon as some logistics are sorted with my rooms.

    Here goes Julie Weinert:




    Like many other very experienced neurofeedback practitioners, I have
    switched to Zengar NeuroCAREPro.  It is simple to learn and to use once it
    is correctly installed on your computer, and is very reliable as a
    clinical tool because it feeds back to the brain information about signal
    variability, which was years ago identified as a key measure of
    self-regulation, rather than specific amplitude or coherence measures.

    I tried for years to use symptom and QEEG-based protocols, but the problem
    with those is how plodding a way of working they are.  As with medication
    trials, it can take hours, days or weeks to "get it right."  During that
    time, it is easy to lose the client's confidence because of setbacks,
    interruptions to or lack of progress.

    Zengar NCP is reliable because it leaves to each brain the question of
    exactly what needs to be corrected.  The brain is a far more efficient
    correlation machine than you or I can possibly be no matter how expert we
    become in referring to databases of QEEG norms or EEG-equivalents of
    neuropsychological symptoms.

    ZNCP simply triggers the brain's own "orienting response" whenever any of
    the brain's self-regulatory mechanisms go off-line.  The brain checks out
    what the problem is within itself, and begins to self-correct.  How the
    program knows when a self-regulatory mechanism goes offline:  by measuring
    changes in signal variability (more detail on which, below).  How it
    triggers the orienting response:  by creating a very brief pause in a
    musical phrase when variability changes.  (The client or therapist chooses
    the music being played from either a CD or music files on the
    practitioner's computer.)  The unexpected break in the rhythm or
    continuity of phrase triggers the orienting response, upon which the
    brain automatically scans itself (as it always does when something
    unexpected happens; after all, self-scanning is the only way brains figure
    out what's going on in their environment, since all sensory information
    about the outside world is represented inside as neuronal changes).

    How ZNCP measures and feeds back signal varibility:  it continually
    measures, from the center of both left and right hemisphere (C3 and C4,
    the central placements over the sensory-motor strip), the signal amplitude
    of eight different frequency bins, and certain of the relationships
    between left and right (e.g. difference, I presume, although the exact
    parameters of the four "Zengar" protocols are proprietary), and derives
    variability measures over a moving time-window.  Whenever there is a
    change in signal variability above or below the recently previous
    differences measured, the music (and/or visual signal; one can use a movie
    or AVI file or G-force abstractions) is stopped for a brief instant.

    The therapist's role, at present, is simply to be present with the client
    as witness to their journey, and to maintain the parameters of the
    feedback so that the stops do not become too regular and frequent, which
    would cause the brain to habituate to and ignore them, nor too long, which
    would make listening to the music annoying because of all the pauses, nor
    too seldom, which might provide too little information for a session to be
    meaningful.

    The down side of NCP is that it requires a high-end computer because of
    the graphic, audio and rapid, concurrent calculation demands, adding to
    the expense.  And some people find the personality of its inventor, Val
    Brown, pompous.  But he really has come up with a brilliant system, and
    perhaps deserves his pride of leadership and frustration with the
    obtuseness and hostility of some of his critics.  I have followed the
    development of what is now Zengar NCP over many years.  It grew
    organically, through Val's systematically integrating several
    then-established (or neglected) but competing neurofeedback protocols
    (e.g. beta, SMR, alpha-theta and the then-frequently-ignored earlier
    discoveries about 40-Hz and single-Hz frequency bins; Val himself, as far
    as I know, developed 7/14/21 Hz work from Mike Tansey's observations about
    the emotional concomitants of particular single-Hz bins); exploring the
    strengths of Thought Technology's original Biograph program ( e.g. its
    ability to feed back, with a variety of both visual and auditory signals,
    more than the three threshold settings and frequency bins that were then
    standard; to set moving thresholds; to allow the therapist to view a
    full-length, two-channel "frequency mirror" or other technical signal info
    on one screen while giving the client simple visual images of specific EEG
    frequency-bin changes on the other; to track variability; etc.); finally
    inventing his own program when he had fully tested the limits of Biograph,
    and increasingly automating NCP "journey" choices to free the therapist to
    be more psychically present with the client.   Other instrument
    manufacturers are now inadvertently flattering Val by incorporating
    derivations of variability (e.g. "Z-score" or variability feedback)
    capabilities into their programs, automating protocol choices, etc.

    So, I've finally officially joined the NCP bandwagon.  If I were still
    using QEEG-based protocols (as I suppose I will eventually again if some
    client in the future isn't satisfied with the effects of NCP), I would go
    with Thornton's Activation QEEG (provided my DOS-based W98 computer and
    Lexicor equipment hold up), Peter Van Deusen's similar mini-Q procedures
    for testing under cognitive challenge, or Sue Othmers' symptom-based
    protocols, patiently derived from the original simple SMR and beta
    protocols of Sterman, Lubar and Tansey and alpha (or alpha-theta)
    protocols of Kamiya, Fahrion and Peniston/Kulkosky over many years of
    experience with a wide variety of severely disabled clients. (See
    http://www.eegspectrum.com/Applications/Intro/UltimateSelf-Help/HistoryofEEGBiofeedback/
    for a good summary-history of neurofeedback).

    Anyway, if you can invest the bucks in a fancy new computer, I'd vote for
    Zengar.  Especially if you're new to neurofeedback, it is truly turn-key;
    there is less to learn to get up and running (though eventually you might
    want to learn more mathematics if you're curious about some of the
    instrument's assessment capabilities) and you can be doing amazing work to
    help your clients without having to know a lot of neurophysiology, without
    investing in QEEG equipment and learning how to paste 23 electrodes in the
    right place with the right impedances, and without sending clients out for
    a $1200 QEEG evaluation before you work with them.

    Julie

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  •  03-25-2009, 11:16 PM 150080 in reply to 36552

    • boblsky is not online. Last active: 03-25-2009, 11:16 PM boblsky
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    Re: effective technology of transformation/Zengar

    I am a certified trainer in the Zengar neurocare approach to CNS renormalization. After years of studying Ki-Aikido and other mind/body disciplines including Zen training and some biofeedback, I became very intrigued by the thought of using neurofeedback as an aid to meditation practice. The idea being that learning to meditate is a tedious, and slow process. My attention could easily drift off for 10, 20, 30 seconds, a minute or more before I would notice and bring my attention back to my meditation focus. I realized that with neurofeedback, virtually in real time when you lose focus you will be notified that you are drifting off and your attention will be brought back into the present moment. I believe that many years of hard training could be greatly shortened by the proper use of neurofeedback. So my search began for a neurofeedback system.  What I found was most neurofeedback practicioners are doctors and focus on solving medical or emotional problems, there just didnt seem to be that much interest in using neurofeedback as a tool for transcendence. I was about to give up when I stumbled upon Zengar's website.  I knew immediately that this was what I had been searching for. Val Brown of Zengar is in his own estimation 10 to 15 years ahead of the curve with his approach, he sees the brain as a non-linear dynamical system using joint time frequency analysis of the EEG. As stated in the previous post the brain is given information about itself and transformation happens!  The old school conventional wisdom way of doing neurofeedback is to map your brain and send that info off to a lab where they compare your data to your peers and then come up with training protocols to push and pull your brain to be exactly like the average person. That sounded so barbaric to me and I wanted no part of it. Zengar training allows your brain to normalize and optimize itself, whatever they may be for each person.  Another newish system to check out is called brainstate technology they seem to be on the same page with the Zengar people, there is a practioner in my hometown of Lawrence KS, I hope to check it out soon.
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  •  04-15-2009, 10:10 PM 157107 in reply to 150080

    • hermannmeyer is not online. Last active: 11-22-2009, 5:22 AM hermannmeyer
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    Re: effective technology of transformation/Zengar

    Hi Bob (?)
    I am glad someone is finally running with this topic, although I am obviously preaching to a converted here. I would like to comment on a few points of you post:"with neurofeedback, virtually in real time when you lose focus you will be notified that you are drifting off and your attention will be brought back into the present moment"
    It appears you are presupposing that you are trying to be in the present moment while doing Zengar Neurofeedback. That is not the case. While doing Zengar Neurofeedback you are explicitly instructed not to try anything, even not trying not to do anything, if that is at all possible. The intentional mind is completely bypassed and any intention is only a hinderance. The software "speaks" to the brain as a self organizing non linear dynamical system directly and provides it with information about the quality of it's own performance moment to moment, which in turn will lead to change through a learning process that will be experienced, from the first person perspective, as transformation.
    Compare that level of sophistication with old school neurofeedback, pushing the brain to become average by operant conditioning methods that will lead to overshoot effects with lots of side effects, and it becomes obvious, we are looking at a vast leap in quality.
    Now compare that to Holosync, a system that pushes the brain in one direction, one size fits all, with no recgard to the individual at all, and it is obviously an outdated technology. I am very disappointed that Ken is sold on this.
    With regards to Brainstate technology: It appears to be another system relying on QEEG evaluation and pushing the brain into a state determined by the therapist.
    I hope more people become interested and see this systems potential.
    Cheers
    Hermann

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  •  04-17-2009, 1:35 AM 157460 in reply to 157107

    • hermannmeyer is not online. Last active: 11-22-2009, 5:22 AM hermannmeyer
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    Re: effective technology of transformation/Zengar

    apropos Holosync, please read this

    http://integrallife.com/community/inquiries/share-spiritual-practice-has-been-particularly-profound-you

    and you may find proof of the shortcomings of that approach.
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