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The Integral-Political Imperative, Part 2 - James Turner & Ken Wilber

Last post 02-13-2008, 5:10 AM by h3athrow. 3 replies.
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  •  02-12-2008, 1:36 PM 39064

    The Integral-Political Imperative, Part 2 - James Turner & Ken Wilber

    I'm going to have to listen to this one a couple of times!  What will healthy green governance structures look like? That's one of the key questions.  Turner has some ideas.  Ken is concerned that healthy orange's commitment to excellence be preserved as we move into green. Both he and Turner see participatory democracy as something beyond "one person, one vote" in elections.

    Turner tossed out the idea that we need to acknowledge that large (more than 500 employees) corporations behave like governments and we need new structures to shape them. For example, make the bill of rights apply to them so that they will be accountable for preserving individual freedoms just as the US government is.  Turner also mentioned that if you ask people to sign a list of the rights in the Bill of Rights using the title, most will; however, if you give people the list with out labeling it, it seems too radical for them and they won't sign. Seems like applying the Bill of Rights to corporations might be an uphill battle, 'eh?

    Toward the end of the conversation, Ken raised the issue how to ensure that the 5% of people at teal altitude (SD-yellow) will be able to influence the creation of new governance structures.  Ken and Jim Turner agreed that the founders of our country belonged to a small minority who were at a level of consciousness higher than most of the rest of the population at the time.

    I'm sure others will pick different aspects of their conversation to comment on and am looking forward to it.

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  •  02-12-2008, 6:22 PM 39093 in reply to 39064

    • mahack2 is not online. Last active: 02-14-2008, 6:59 AM mahack2
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    Re: The Integral-Political Imperative, Part 2 - James Turner & Ken Wilber

    BernadetteM:
    Turner tossed out the idea that we need to acknowledge that large (more than 500 employees) corporations behave like governments and we need new structures to shape them. For example, make the bill of rights apply to them so that they will be accountable for preserving individual freedoms just as the US government is.  Turner also mentioned that if you ask people to sign a list of the rights in the Bill of Rights using the title, most will; however, if you give people the list with out labeling it, it seems too radical for them and they won't sign. Seems like applying the Bill of Rights to corporations might be an uphill battle, 'eh?

    I thought this was a very valid and impressive point.  It reminded me of something from the book The Walmart Effect in which they are describing Walmart's sheer power and control over industries.  At first it spins a pretty negative effect if you look at past and current happenings with suppliers overseas (i.e., the salmon industry in South America-- in regards to pollution and worker situations) and how the pressure to produce makes the industries stress over means to produce quantity.  But, then it goes into talking about how Wal-mart has increased efforts to ensure suppliers  improve quality of the workplace.  The author Charles Fishman then suggests that they at the expense of some money (but with moral obligations) go even further to ensure full pollution control and even better work conditions, using that power and turning their power into a positive attribute environmentally and socially.  Mandating something like this would be beneficial to all parties. I think with corporations so large they have this obligation to the world, because they are affecting so much economically and socially that they need to use their power to entice better situations.   

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  •  02-12-2008, 11:56 PM 39122 in reply to 39093

    Re: The Integral-Political Imperative, Part 2 - James Turner & Ken Wilber

    there's alot of food for thought in this conversation. i've forgotten to some extent part 1, but what i remember helps to make sense of part 2. also, the way this part ended leaves open the possibility there will be a part 3. and there's also a book that turner is co-authoring, for which all of this may well serve in some way as an introduction.

    the most important idea that i took away from part 1 is the jeffersonian one that we should have some sort of voice in entities that significantly affect our lives. the constitution provided us this with regard to the federal government, but hamilton established the corporation in such a way as not to give us that voice, and turner feels it is especially important that we begin redressing this lack.

    the new idea i got from this part is that, with the emergence of green, we are moving from representative to participatory government. it didn't seem to me that turner adequately answered the question wilber raised in this regard, namely, how do we maintain the excellence that representative government fosters in the face of the equality participatory government fosters? it's true the bill of rights provides a basis for those wanting to develop to a level of excellence to do so, but i don't see how it would ensure that they would achieve the positions of power where they could exercise that excellence for the good of society as a whole.

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  •  02-13-2008, 5:10 AM 39137 in reply to 39093

    • h3athrow is not online. Last active: 02-15-2008, 12:00 PM h3athrow
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    Re: The Integral-Political Imperative, Part 2 - James Turner & Ken Wilber

    Fishman's book is great. You can get a starter sense of what he's saying in the article The Wal-Mart You Don't Know, as well as The Man Who Said No to Wal-Mart.

    While I've yet to listen to this, mahack2's comments make me think you might be interested in the book The Support Economy, as well.

    Heath
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