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Forgiveness

Last post 11-06-2006, 3:16 PM by timelody. 42 replies.
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  •  11-03-2006, 11:56 PM 13698 in reply to 13677

    Re: Forgiveness

    u are his (robert augustus masters) agent, no ?? [;)

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  •  11-04-2006, 3:47 AM 13702 in reply to 13629

    Re: Forgiveness

    so true Liz

    to see that they ARE in their own version of hell - and I find I dont need to right the balance for them thru vengeance because they are being punished thru being there. Perhaps we only realise that after we have shifted out of our own hell and experience a bit of heaven...ie maybe moved up a stage...

    And to look back at my past does soften me a lot regarding others...I see my own greater global unconsciousness and way of relating (non relating) to others then...I didnt know better...

    God bless you in your current struggle!

    Time for sleep...G

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  •  11-04-2006, 11:17 AM 13755 in reply to 13702

    Re: Forgiveness

    where or how does "idiot compassion" fit in with forgiveness ??

     

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  •  11-04-2006, 11:20 AM 13756 in reply to 13755

    Re: Forgiveness

    fairyfaye:

    where or how does "idiot compassion" fit in with forgiveness ??

     

    I am so glad you asked this. I have been meaning to share a personal story . . . but later.


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  11-04-2006, 11:23 AM 13757 in reply to 13677

    • FireAngel is not online. Last active: 10-23-2007, 5:07 PM FireAngel
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    Re: Forgiveness

    adastra:

    Sometimes the process of forgiveness may seem to break our heart, but it is only the armoring around our heart that breaks. Or melts. Forgiveness brings us in out of the cold, potently reminding us of who we really are.

    When we choose to forgive, we are entering the morality of the Divine. In choosing to forgive, we deepen our intimacy with the Beloved.

    Forgiveness is not only the essence of true kindness, but also an act of genuine power.

    May we all embody it.

    I guess this is what I mean by Feeling........ not emotional but an embodiment of the forgiveness.  Ono could say they forgive and want to mean it, but until it is felt/embodied, it is still just words


    Now that I know I'm no wiser than anyone else, does this wisdom make me wiser? Hugh Prather
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  •  11-04-2006, 12:35 PM 13765 in reply to 12937

    • jacinda is not online. Last active: 01-06-2009, 8:11 AM jacinda
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    Re: Forgiveness

    Somewhere recently I heard someone speak of "instant forgiveness"

    Hi monkmonk,

    yes....the quote below is my favorite on forgiveness.....ebbing with love.

    (while posting this....ALL IS FULL OF LOVE by Bjork is playing)

    LOVE

    Betsy


    “Forgiveness is the fragrance the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.” ~Mark Twain
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  •  11-04-2006, 3:01 PM 13775 in reply to 13755

    Re: Forgiveness

    fairyfaye:

    where or how does "idiot compassion" fit in with forgiveness ??

    Very good point fairyfaye. While waiting for Tim's story I'll give my opinion on it.

    Idiot compassion will almost inevitably lead to the person practising it being hurt. Caress a viper and it will eventually bite you. So being hurt through idiot compassion is really feedback; feedback on how the world works and how unskillfully you are navigating it at that moment. To heal that hurt you must really forgive yourself - and that is so much easier once you understand that you were naive and needed to learn that lesson. In a sense I think it is always easier to forgive yourself as well as the other person  when you 'pick up the learning' from the situation that hurt you. I would say this goes for any hurtful experience, not only when idiot compassion is involved. Expressing and processing painful emotions is always involved as well obviously, but everything somehow seems more worthwhile and filled with hope if you pick up some valuable knowledge that you carry with you.

    So forgiveness might on the outside involve becoming more assertive or abandoning a person altogether, and not at all "turning the other cheek". While on the inside I believe forgiveness must always lead to a sense of peace and love after the pain/anger/sadness have run their course.


    http://integraleurope.org
    http://pelle.gaia.com
    http://malmointegral.blogspot.com
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  •  11-04-2006, 3:31 PM 13784 in reply to 13775

    Re: Forgiveness

    Speaking of idiot compassion, that is the subject of an essay in the latest issue of Robert's newsletter; here is the notice I just received:


    Issue #19 of my newsletter (with essays on IDIOT COMPASSION
    and FORGIVENESS) is now available. To view it, click on the
    following link:

    http://www.RobertMasters.com/newsletter/November2006.pdf

    Previous newsletters can now be viewed in PDF format by
    clicking on NEWSLETTER at www.RobertMasters.com.

    I now have a blog! To view it, click on THE BLOG button
    at www.RobertMasters.com

    If you have trouble downloading the newsletter, make sure that
    you have Adobe Reader (a free download from www.Adobe.com)
    installed.
    To transcend yourself, be yourself.

    spirals,

    arthur


    I am seeking meaningful work.

    bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

    I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

    "You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn
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  •  11-04-2006, 4:42 PM 13798 in reply to 13784

    Re: Forgiveness

    wow what timing, arthur !!

    robert puts it very well when he says: idiot compassion is in such a hurry to forgive, it doesn't make room for the unfolding of what preceeds forgiveness

    also thx for your comments pelleB .. and waiting for your story, tim !!

     

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  •  11-05-2006, 9:40 AM 13899 in reply to 13798

    Re: Forgiveness

    (I'm going to read the RAM article after posting this. I agree, how perfectly timed. )

    fairyfaye:

     .. and waiting for your story, tim !!

    Well, I think it’s worth telling because it was such a surprising shock to me when it happened. If it qualifies as idiot compassion it is/was perhaps a much subtler, sneakier form of it  than I was previously aware of. But none the less it was a real lesson.

    I went through the whole process of forgiveness, felt all the pain, recognized, felt and allowed all the anger and so on and it took about a year. After that time period there really was not much left, it was time to start letting it all go and to move on.

    What we’re talking about, really, is nothing other than the release of the self-contraction. I was aware not to repress or disown all the hurt and pain and resentment, etc., and basically the point came –as it naturally should, especially if you have some kind of practice (mindfulness, etc.) to do so-where spending another minute on it would be nothing but unnecessary continuation of something already over and done with, and be nothing other than useless ego solidifying self contraction.

    (ACIM makes this so painfully clear IMHO; we so often tend to LOVE our pain and our hurt, to cling to it, because it makes us something and/or somebody special; we complain about it the whole way but that complaining is nothing other than loving and cherishing it and contracting around it. Another way of saying it is that it’s the “having syndrome”- Look at me! Hey, guess what? I have something! like a broken heart, a broken limb, a disease, some “serious shit” in my history and the self contracts all around that. Amazingly, this process-I think we need to recognize- is natural and begins with childhod. It can be seen in children all the time. "Look at my cut!" and the child will show it even to stangers becasue it is such a big deal and, really, I'm so proud of it! And this is fine too. It's part of growing. Carried forward to adulthood, letting it go-especially the much bigger hurts- means death. We may even continue to compare it with others. “Oh yeah, you think your suffering is bad? Guess what happened to me!” And now maybe I have “won” the horrible suffering competition . . .Tongue Tied [:S] . . . anyway . . .)

    It was clear that this had run its course and it was time to let it go and start looking into other perspectives on the situation, now with the clarity to do so.

    It seems like once all your pain is gone it is then very easy to start looking into the other person's perspective, perhaps in ways deeper than even that person can. (In fact, probably so.) To me, I think this is the ultimate practice of forgiveness and then the cultivating of true compassion. Into the other person’s shoes, what is really motivating them? What hurt? What unbearable pain? Who or what was merciless with them? What has been their suffering on the brutal playing field of life? Etc. It shouldn’t be hard to find, I think, if the First Noble Truth has any validity at all. And so all of this worked great and then time simply moved on.

    Three years past. And the bottom line is, suddenly . . . I found myself right back into the same situation all over again! Although this time it was even worse! Not only was I now ten times more vulnerable but I was now involving other people with me (i.e. I dragged them into the situation as well). What in the Hell happened?! I asked myself. How!?

    All I can say is, it was truly as if I had 100% forgotten! It was and has been one of the more profound lessons of my life. I remember saying, my God, I allowed myself to be “stupefied” by what seemed like genuine forgiveness and true "letting go."

    Idiot compassion is basically a lack of discriminative awareness. I remain in a state of inquiry over this whole thing, but it just seems like "idiot compassion" somehow slowly welled up or crept in without my realizing it. Or maybe it just felt better not to be thinking about "bad things." I was too willing to "make it all better." Or, perhaps subtly contracted around the belief that my (! ?) “love and compassion” could magically heal the situation. I am not sure, really. But I do feel certain of one gigantic mistake that I made and perhaps that is the most valid and genuine answer.

    Somehow it seems as if I mistook my growth for the other person’s. Does that make sense? I unconsciously thought that since I had grown the other person did as well.

    Either way, here I am, unbelievably, literally walking right back into the lion’s den –and again, literally with, like, NO memory of what had occurred before! (That's what was so shocking.)

    It was awful. One of the biggest mistakes I have made in my life. (If you’re like me and have a list of those doosies, this is definitely in the top three if not two.) And quite frankly I still do not know what to make of it, except that . . . don’t allow yourself to truly forget!

    Maybe that is the hardest part. And maybe that is the mistake I made. Somehow we have to be able to hold whatever the "bad thing" is in mind without contracting aroud it; just hold it in a discriminative yet compassionate awareness. But that might be much more difficult for those who are truly close to us, or easier for people or situation we don't really know so well.

    There is another part of this lesson too.

    Although there was much in the actions and intentions and behavior of this person to be angry about, this time, I couldn’t blame him for all that happened. My own involvement was so clear this time . . . because I KNEW! It had a history of 12 years that I had previously been so ell aware of!

    Yet somehow I had pretty much just about literally completely forgotten and waltzed my way right back into it with intentions of peace and love . . .

    So, a shock.

    I'm not sure what the moral of thi story is . . . but there is certainly one there. Right?Hmm [^o)]

    Peace, Tim


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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  •  11-05-2006, 10:48 AM 13902 in reply to 13702

    Re: Forgiveness

    wow tim it really makes me rethink that saying: to forgive is to forget ..

    thx for sharing .. maybe one of the lessons is that forgiving doesn't mean we've broken our own pattern?

    reminds me of a friend with an alcoholic father who kept getting involved in relationships with alcoholics .. forgiving her father or her previous boyfriend(s) doesn't guarantee that her pattern of choosing alcoholics is broken

     

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  •  11-06-2006, 1:21 PM 14054 in reply to 13899

    Re: Forgiveness

    Tim

    Its great that you shared your story.  Forgiveness is easy to talk about in the abstract.  And its easy to see the benefits:  Robert lists them well. ACIM is wonderfully eloquent about the 'why' of forgiveness too.  But it can become a bit like talking about peace, say. Most of us want peace.  Yet how peaceful are we?  I'm sometimes tempted to ask someone who is preaching about forgiveness - have you ever had something terrible done to you, and if you did, how did you forgive it?  And if you haven't had that experience, wait awhile before offering your advice....

    Your story gets more to the heart of the issue than just philosophising can.

    In my thread on the spirituality forum, I mused about responsibility and forgiveness.  And your story relates to that.

    Here's the nub as I see it:  you feel your anger and resentment, you let go of it, you put yourself in the other's shoes, you see the causes of the other's behaviour.  As you say, how they must have suffered to become a person who could harm others.  This is the line which ACIM takes, and which you took.

    Could we not say that this process dissolves the offence?  Forgiveness is now simple, because you have reached the point of no longer holding the other responsible for their actions.  Your resentment has gone, and so has the offence.   You were angry before because you were mistaken.  Sure, you suffered, but the other is not responsible for the suffering.  They are the product of their genetics, upbringing, their experiences and sufferings.

    Not surprising that you forgot what happened.  Nothing happened!  You suffered, but noone was responsible.

    Now, I don't call this 'idiot compassion'.  Its the outcome of a particular model of human behaviour.

    The question is: is it a true model?  

    ACIM, although it is claimed to be spoken by the voice of 'Jesus', is very much held in disfavour by traditional Christian churches, not just because it was 'channelled' but because of this challenge to the doctrine of sin and personal responsibility for actions. 

    Without getting into theology, this does point up the issue.  Its about choice, and whether we really do have a choice about what we do.

    To view people as the product of their experiences and genetics is to dissolve the notion of individual choice.  If we can't really choose - if, given certain circumstances, we can't really choose not to rape or steal or murder or lie or inflict pain - then forgiveness is everyone's right.  We can no more blame a rapist than we can blame a cat for killing a mouse.  And its WE who are in the wrong if we feel anger and resentment!   So yes, let's transcend those feelings, they are understandable but inappropriate.

    But the alternative perspective is no easier.  People DO have a choice.  Two people with similar backgrounds and experiences may not BOTH become offenders.  So one must have chosen to offend.   This is actually the line taken by traditional Christianity.  Unlike ACIM, the Jesus of the Bible says that people must repent of their sins.  Why repent if you're not responsible for them?  In the Bible, you are responsible for actions, even if it is the duty of believers to forgive you seventy times seven.

    But how?  Forgiveness is much more difficult now, however convinced you are of the virtues of forgiveness as Robert lists them.   If someone has raped you, or abused you as a child, it may be possible to forgive if you can truly feel that they weren't responsible for their actions.   Another matter entirely if you believe that they knew what they were doing and still chose to do it.  How to get past that?    Understanding why you should forgive won't help.  It might even make you feel worse, because in addition to being abused, you're a failure at forgiveness! 

    I kind of feel that these thoughts may have some relevance to your story, Tim - I don't know what you think.   And any feedback from others would be great too.

    Smile [:)]

    ~ David


    'This is all the time you'll ever have'.
    ~ Dr Hannibal Lecter
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  •  11-06-2006, 3:16 PM 14074 in reply to 14054

    Re: Forgiveness

    David and FF,

    I'll respond more later to your wonderful points. Quickly for now, David I am so glad you mentioned "being a failure at forgiveness." I've been wanting to mention that since some of the earliest posts. One must also deal with "forgiving" oneself for not forgiving -OR for being angry (or truly hurt etc.) in the first place. THAT'S a biggie whenever the notion of forgiveness would be taken seriously, I think.

    Anyway, more later . . .


    "With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
    . . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
    "You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
    -Constantin Stanislavsky
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