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Stripping the gurus: The dis-integration of Ken Wilber

Last post 05-09-2008, 10:27 AM by schalk. 19 replies.
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  •  04-18-2008, 10:23 AM 47085

    Stripping the gurus: The dis-integration of Ken Wilber

    I am not sure where to post this but has anybody here read this book: http://normaneinsteinbook.com/ also here: http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/wilber.asp

    "Norman Einstein": The Dis-Integration of Ken Wilber will show you why the community around Wilber is being increasingly called a "cult," even by former founding members of I-I who have seen it first-hand."

    I am a newbie in kw studies and this book strikes me as a kind of shock about wilber. But what do you guys think about it? Just plain bitterness from the critics? Jealousy? Misinterpreted? True? Kinda true? Does this matter or not? Old news?  Just some crazy boomeritis?

     Please send some feedback.


  •  04-18-2008, 2:16 PM 47135 in reply to 47085

    Re: Stripping the gurus: The dis-integration of Ken Wilber

    Muggur:

    I appreciate your question. I would like to offer a friendly response that may not be what you were expecting.

    I do not know Mr. Falk. But it is clear that he is a smart guy. And probably a smart-ass sometimes too. Which is fine.

    (The reference to Norman Einstein came from a famous misstatement of the football player Joe Theismann.)

    It is also clear that what Mr. Falk is most interested in is distinguishing between verifiable truths and b.s. He is trained as an electrical engineer, a field that makes pretty rigorous distinctions between truth and falsity, or valid and invalid connections.

    I have no opinions to share about Mr. Falk's criticism of Ken's body of thought per se.

    But I am convinced that what Mr. Falk sees when he looks at Integral Institute is a lot of people hanging in the wings who are not doing the homework themselves to discover for themselves whether all or some of what is asserted is true. They are blindly buying into and parroting ideas and assertions and themes and connections and systems that they themselves have not reached having done the groundwork. They simply have a visceral sense that the lines of thought make sense.   

    A cult is a group of people who are blindly buying into assertions made by a cult leader. Mr. Falk would probably tell you that the vast majority of the things the members of I-I say and think about the work of I-I are things they have personally not even verified or thought about. They are proceeding blindly under the assumption that Ken Wilber is doing the rigorous work for them.

    Here is what Mr. Falk would tell you (I suspect): his critique can be bitter and jealous and also at the same time valid. So forget about whether he is being bitter or jealous. That is his problem. Instead, study Ken's works and then study the book written by Mr. Falk and arrive at your own opinions. And then after you have done your homework and are competent to enter the debate, you will be in a position to really contribute useful ideas.

    I offer these words in a helpful manner.

     

  •  04-18-2008, 2:18 PM 47136 in reply to 47085

    Re: Stripping the gurus: The dis-integration of Ken Wilber

    Hi muggur123,

    I heard from this book before. I browsed through the text as far as my short attention span allowed, and my  impression is that this guy (Geoffrey) is really trying too hard. He loses himself in endless details and doesn't seem to get the big picture. Of course I should read all the text before judging, but I'm just not motivated to read it all. I wonder for which target group he 's writing. And then 'Dis-Integration' really sounds hostile. Did he mean 'De-Construction'? Anyway he's far from the brillance of a Derrida or Foucault. Imo the best way of dealing with such critics is to ignore them and that's what I will do.

    btw today I bought a cheap Californian red wine (Cabernet Sauvignon) in the supermarket and it's not bad at all. It's no 'Dornfelder', but still...

    I can say nothing about the 'cult' phenomenon since I'm relatively new here and then i'm living on a different continent, you know. It would be interesting to hear a statement from someone in the nearer surroundings of  I-I about this.

    best,

    witz78

    Oh, and, If you need a guru to power up your karma, I recommend this one: http://www.thegurupitka.com/ Wink [;)]

     

  •  04-18-2008, 3:35 PM 47162 in reply to 47136

    Re: Stripping...

    When i find similar themes in more than a few places, I tend to give the holon, or map in this case,  more consideration.

    Witz, I love the Love Guru, and i am quite fond of his yoga poses, i practice daily the posture illustrated central bottom.

    Love ta "yoose all."
  •  04-18-2008, 8:28 PM 47221 in reply to 47162

    Re: Stripping...

    BakerBunny:

    I thought we were talking about Falk's critique of I-I as a cult.

    Do you have any thoughts on that? Have you read Falk's critique?

    And what in the blooming heck are you talking about when you say that when you find similar themes in more than a few places, you tend to give the holon, or the map in this case, more consideration?

    Common courtesy dictates that you not breeze in and toss off an inane comment and the segue into a non sequitur followed by a something I know not what it is.

    So, what do you think of what I wrote to Muggur?  

  •  04-19-2008, 2:55 AM 47279 in reply to 47162

    Re: Stripping...

    Hi BakerBunny,

    good to hear from you. How's your little daughter? I hope she's well.

    Hm I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by these similar themes that you find in more than a few places. Mind to clarify?

    Central bottom yoga pose - wait a moment - that one is called 'telling mum you're gay'. Ahaha. Funny indeed. (are YOU trying to tell me something!?). Anyway my favorite Yoga Pose is 'No shoes No shirt No nirvana'. Now that's funny, ain't it. Mariska Hargitay, everybody.

    witz

  •  04-19-2008, 6:03 AM 47299 in reply to 47135

    Re: Stripping the gurus: The dis-integration of Ken Wilber

    Thanks for the reply schalk

    But is it not true in some sense? I think there are many people who just swallow everything that Wilber writes, I know I did it at first. Maybe it is a little bit exaggerated saying that I-I is a cult phenomena but sometimes I get a little bit skeptic about what Wilber is doing, specially when he has built this big Integral phenomena. It's hard to change something when you have built something big from it. Like many of his claims are often paradoxical and overstated. But of course he is just human who can make mistakes just as everybody else and be stuck in some egoic pursuits.

    I am not undermining Wilber, I think most of his stuff is great. But there are some claims that I would like a little bit more clarification from. Since Wilber is supposed to be this intellectual and rather scientific minded spiritual guy, I would like to see some research from some of his claims. Like meditation which is supposed to accelerate human development, it would be really interesting to see the data that supports this claim.

    I agree with you that this Mr. Falk is rather bitter and jealous and not very scientific. But I think it is important that people should have an easy access to the original research, regardless if its electric engineering or meditation. Because the thing I love about I-I's approach to spirituality is it's scientific approach to it, and that means that they should, vaguely, build their claims from some scientific evidence.

  •  04-19-2008, 12:31 PM 47344 in reply to 47299

    Re: Stripping the gurus: The dis-integration of Ken Wilber

    Muggur:

    Very good hearing from you. I appreciate your comments.

    The word "cult" comes charged and loaded. I think it is irresponsible to call anything associated with I-I a cult at this point.

    But, if we are talking of "blind acceptance," which is a central feature of cults, then we may be onto something as it pertains to a lot of the members of the I-I community.

    I am a big fan of the classical American virtues of humility, skepticism, a love of independence, and responsible community.

    The word "guru" comes charged and loaded, and I think it is inaccurate to speak of Ken W. as a "guru." Have you listened to his discussion of the classical distinction between "gurus" and "pandits?" The guru is the teacher who enters into a relationship with you that is so close and bonded that s/he literally eats your karma for lunch.

    Ken W. has deliberately and responsibly made it known time and again that he is not interested in being a guru to anyone. And what this means is that his work is what it is and stands on its own. And the joy of this is that if Ken W. were to drop off the face of the planet tomorrow or start writing science fiction novels, it would have very little impact on the legitimacy and power of the I-I vision.

    We have this unfortunate fascination with "superstars" and "big famous people." I am dialoguing on a different thread with some people about Obama. My contention is that our cheerleading and zeal for Obama reflects something really silly and cheap about our notion of our own powers as citizens. Most politicians are simply clever triangulators who vector themselves into office. I contend that Obama has not done anything of significance that the people of Illinois could not have done for themselves and that if elected as President he will not do anything of signficance that we could not have already done or that we cannot do if we have the desire.

    Obama is a master at tossing off the right generalities to pluck the heartstrings of the audience he is before.

    Falk does not understand the key point that Ken W. is probably the most responsible "spiritual leader" the Western world has ever seen. He goes out of his way to be rigorous and to avoid the potential of a personality cult. He has had every opportunity to deify himself and he has responsibly taken the high road.

    My sense is that Falk is a really smart guy who has done much of the same research as many of us and it sort of bugs him that Ken W. has managed to build a substantial community that is having fun, doing serious work, and making a real difference.

    Remember the movie Amadeus? I see Wilber as Mozart and Falk as Salieri who is filled with envy.

    I agree that Ken W. has tossed off statements from time to time that make you think "how could he possibly know this" or "how could this possibly be verified?" But, I give him the latitude to make statements like these because they may simply be helpful orientations or even poetically just.

    As for scientific evidence, not everything that we know is susceptible to quantification. Ken W. has made this point over and over. There are truths that are impossible to verify in a laboratory. You can have knowledge and you can provide a road map for others to obtain the same knowledge and yet what you know has no physical or quantifiable properties. Truths exist in a variety of domains and you need "the eye" appopriate to that domain to appreciate and test the truths.

    My main concern at this point is that I am seeing I-I become an entity with a cause and a large following of hangers-on who are not humbly and rigorously doing the work themselves to discover whether all or any of what is posited is true. I would like to see I-I become a little more stern about reminding members that integrity and rigor and sustainability of the vision depend on sobriety, responsibility, careful use of words, humility, and skepticism.

    Any movement, revolution, or cause will inevitably usher forth an opposing movement, counter-revolution, or cause. I-I is the global view, the unifying theory, and depends on our inherent ability to make right distinctions and to remain sober.

     

  •  05-04-2008, 12:06 PM 48785 in reply to 47344

    Re: Stripping the gurus: The dis-integration of Ken Wilber

    The basic point is that Falk is an asshole.

    His remarks are not well founded and do not make a good impression.

    These are just my humble opinions.  I have actually read his stuff.

    John R

  •  05-04-2008, 8:14 PM 48828 in reply to 47085

    Re: Stripping the gurus: The dis-integration of Ken Wilber

    Maybe I will go back to my Catholic origins of guilt inducing , sexual repression, and I am a worthless sinner belief system. To me thats what the center of gravity most people feel comfortable with.

    In my own life I have shared with my so called friends different disciples that have contributed to my well being, yet I get responses like ; o that is a cult, or that is to much money to spend, etc.  Yet these same people continue on with their limited little world .  I give  the Ken Wilbers of the world credit for trying to wake up the masses from their sleep, and what do they get  for their efforts is a bunch of ungratefull remarks . I know I have allowed it to effect my enthuisiasm for transformation, and enlightenment. . Seems to me all they know is entrapment, and have no listening for enlightenment. Only if they only knew who they really are...... Thanks Ken for the contribution you have made to so many of us.


    Bill Kilburg,
  •  05-06-2008, 4:02 PM 49476 in reply to 48785

    Re: Stripping the gurus: The dis-integration of Ken Wilber

    schalk:

    I offer these words in a helpful manner.

    It's been a while since I read such an arrogant statement. Who do you think you are? Saint Schalk telling everybody what they did wrong? Aww Huh? [:^)]

    My basic point is that you are an asshole, Schalk. Your remarks don't make a good impression on me and I especially don't like your aggressive way of bullying others around. These are just my humble opinions. And no, I'm not reading your 'Teal Obama' stuff. You know where you can put your kundu, do you?

    vroom vroom! It's the Batcar. Get out of the way.

  •  05-06-2008, 4:43 PM 49487 in reply to 49476

    Re: Stripping the gurus: The dis-integration of Ken Wilber

    Witz:

    To tell me that I am an asshole is using a nuclear weapon when a surgical strike is called for my friend. Show us some focus, OK? We can't get anywhere without it.

    Don't bullshit me about how calling me an asshole is "just your humble opinion." If you mean it, then say it. And then tell me why.

    I believe I have been eminently courteous in setting out my thoughts in a respectful and organized manner, allowing you to apprehend exactly what I am talking about. Constructive criticism is far more valuable that collectively knawing on a soggy bone.

    I much prefer the courtesy of having an argument or idea presented in an organized and coherent form, even if I think it is wrong or stupid, than getting sprayed in the face with formless backwashed mud. With mud, you try to get your hands on it and it just scrunches all over the place.  

    I don't bully people. Bullying people is when you call them an asshole. What I do is identify what I honestly and sincerely believe to be important issues. And then present them as rawly and honestly as I can so that there can be meaningful discussion. It's a great style, by the way. Good for the soul all around.

    Now it's your turn Witz. Show me what you got.

    I challenge you to identify the specific items of my post that you:

     a. are bothered by (and tell me why),

    b. disagree with (and persuade me of your view), or

    c. feel are improper of irrelevant (I don't see this happening so... the first two will be a good start).

    Tell me how you are not bleeding unhealthy green, by the way. The only time I hear people whine about people "bullying others" with arguments and them telling them where to put their "kundu" without saying anything constructive is when "mean green" has been riled up. Help me out here. Which hierarchy did I mix up? Do you recognize any valid hierarchies?   

    I appreciate you calling me a Saint. Trust me - that has never happened before! I like to start with the assumption that both you and I have the nature of Saints in us, however. So in a sense you are right.

    Show me some Integral Class Witz! And don't call me names. That is something that reflects badly.

    Standing by for something useful from you...

  •  05-07-2008, 2:26 AM 49588 in reply to 49487

    Re: Stripping the gurus: The dis-integration of Ken Wilber

    Schalk,

    I apologize for calling you an 'asshole'. I used the term as part of a polemic political argument. You know, I'm pretty sure we would wave different flags on election day. And then, as you might have noticed, I quoted john rowan's post who used the word in context with Mr. Schalk pardon Falk. I thought it would be interesting to get the discussion on this thread going on because I think it's not finished yet.

    schalk:
    I much prefer the courtesy of having an argument or idea presented in an organized and coherent form, even if I think it is wrong or stupid, than getting sprayed in the face with formless backwashed mud. With mud, you try to get your hands on it and it just scrunches all over the place.  

    Welcome to the postmodern world. Scrunchy, eh? More often than not, you end up with nothing in your hands . BTW Spirit is present even in formless mud. For a discussion of this, see the 'beauty and spirit' thread somewhere in the Frothy Edge.

    schalk:
    I don't bully people. Bullying people is when you call them an asshole. What I do is identify what I honestly and sincerely believe to be important issues. And then present them as rawly and honestly as I can so that there can be meaningful discussion. It's a great style, by the way. Good for the soul all around.

    You have a green shadow, my friend. Think about it. And whether you have a 'great style' or not is to be decided in an aesthetic discourse and doesn't depend on how yourself see it. And yeah, you ARE bullying people.

    schalk:
    BakerBunny:

    I thought we were talking about Falk's critique of I-I as a cult.

    Do you have any thoughts on that? Have you read Falk's critique?

    And what in the blooming heck are you talking about when you say that when you find similar themes in more than a few places, you tend to give the holon, or the map in this case, more consideration?

    Common courtesy dictates that you not breeze in and toss off an inane comment and the segue into a non sequitur followed by a something I know not what it is.

    So, what do you think of what I wrote to Muggur?

    That's exactly what I call bullying people around. It's arrogant. It's impolite. You can't do this. Honestly. Don't impose your own ideals onto others. It's no good. All you do is emprisoning others in your dream. You're cutting personal freedom away. Again, this might be a political debate.

    schalk:
    Tell me how you are not bleeding unhealthy green, by the way. The only time I hear people whine about people "bullying others" with arguments and them telling them where to put their "kundu" without saying anything constructive is when "mean green" has been riled up. Help me out here. Which hierarchy did I mix up? Do you recognize any valid hierarchies?   

    Green shadow. See above, dear Saint Schalk. Second tier can acknowledge every first tier color, even green. Can you? BTW I don't know nothing about hierarchies. Ask the Batcar.

    I appreciate your compassion and energy (kundu?) with which you engage in discussions. You obviously try to be as AQAL as possible, the best way you can. I can see almost every color in your posts. You're doing well, although you (just like anyone of us, including me) could need some more training in certain developmental lines. :-)

    But you know, I am somehow worried about your ongoing posting frenzy this last week. How long can you go on in this way? I know these days are really important for you americans., even historical. But I'm afraid you could 'burn out' if you continue to spread your kundu all over the place. Don't forget to care about yourself. Regenerate. Go for a walk. Eat. Sleep. Meditate. Find your center again. And then, engage in discussion operating from that center.

    wishing you well: witz

    Oh and there is still no valid statement on the cult-phenomenon of early I-I. Mind to clarify, anyone?

  •  05-07-2008, 10:39 AM 49645 in reply to 49588

    Re: Stripping the gurus: The dis-integration of Ken Wilber

    Witz:

    I like you. You are a courageous guy with good ideas.

    How Long Can I Go On This Way?

    You said: "But you know, I am somehow worried about your ongoing posting frenzy this last week. How long can you go on in this way? I know these days are really important for you americans., even historical. But I'm afraid you could 'burn out' if you continue to spread your kundu all over the place. Don't forget to care about yourself. Regenerate. Go for a walk. Eat. Sleep. Meditate. Find your center again."

    Yes, I understand. It may seem like I am Jack Kerouac stoked on the frenzy of benzedrine cranking out reams of streams of consciousness. That kind of productivity cannot be sustained, right? I agree with you that is no way to live.

    And trust me, I am not on drugs.  

    I just retired from the U.S. Navy. One of the beautiful things about military service in America is that you only have to serve 20 years and you get a healthy pension for life with full health care benefits.

    So, I am in my mid-40s with all of the time in the world and more money than I need. And a computer.

    When I retired I promised myself that I would do everything that I have been putting off. Navy life is hard - it really demands full time service and you are constantly moving around, no home, living in cubicles on a ship, etc. (I guess that is why they let you retire after 20 years, most people are at the end of their rope by them.) You tend to accumulate inspirations but have no time to act on them.

    So, in addition to having a great time sharing valuable ideas with people like yourself in the community forum, I am also finishing a novel (am not happy with it right now though), composing music, and I just published a book on the Neapolitan language (which is the first book ever written providing English translations of authentic Napulitano text materials - I am getting a lot of positive feedback from the Italian-American community thanking me for helping them regain their heritage. By the way, if you speak German, you may be interested in a 2nd edition I also published with German and English translations. )

    I feel really balanced and am devoting time to other projects as well, which include improving my yard, learning to draw, helping my children with their homework, trying to find new recipes to cut meat out of our family diet, and working with my aunt to assemble our family tree. (I did a bunch of research in Bratislava last year on that.)

    Tell me: what are you doing these days? Where do you devote your best energies? You have an ILP?

    My challenge to anyone who may be reading this is: what will you regret not having done or tried? Have you ever thought of writing a novel? Sit down and just produce 5 pages today and 5 pages tomorrow and then look at what you have after a month. If it is garbage, ask yourself why. Study a good writer and ask, "what are they doing that I am not doing?" You will make improvements every time. And you will find velleities all over that need to be cut out.

    To all of the Integral friends out there, I challenge you to write something. And if you don't know how to self-publish, check out www.lulu.com - you can send your Word file on Monday, and have your book in hard cover form in your hands the following Monday! So, give it a try. The worst thing that will happen is that you realize you need a lot more study and discipline before you can create something good. The best thing that can happen is that you will actually create something stunning and surprise yourself (and make some money).

    You know, almost everyone likes music. But how many people have tried to put what is in their heart into musical form? It is actually quite easy to learn the fundamentals of chord theory. Most people can get it in a week and start writing songs. I'll bet there is someone in the Integral community who has a bunch of great songs inside of them that need to get written. Again, you may find that you need more discipline, or, you may create something absolutely cool right now.

    On the physical side, I use yoga mainly to keep my spine healthy, and head stands to flood my brain with oxygenated blood. I don't eat junk food or smoke. I do love red wine however. But when I drink, it definitely cuts into my endurance. So, I often open a bottle of burgundy and let half of it go bad.

    So, I appreciate your comments about balance. They were good comments. I am just finding that life is good and writing is fun and so are a whole lot of other things. And the absolutely weird thing is, when you create, it brings more balance and relaxation into your life than when you try to assimilate the creations of others.

    Now, turning to the heart of the issue.

    On Arrogance

    In your mind, I was arrogant and rude to BakerBunny, right?

    I'll admit, I was slightly harsh. And I can completely understand your response. At face value, I read way too much into it, right?

    I would do the same thing again. And I will.  

    Here is what happened. So we have a common frame of reference.

    Muggur asked a very legitimate and sincere question about the Falk book and the issue of cults as related to Integral Institute. It was a very relevant topic to raise.

    I tried to provide my sincere ideas in response. I expected others to help the discussion with valuable comments.

    BakerBunny then entered the thread and did the following:

    s/he made a comment that was nearly meaningless, to wit:

    "When i find similar themes in more than a few places, I tend to give the holon, or map in this case,  more consideration."

    s/he then thought to re-direct the conversation to you and said:

    "Witz, I love the Love Guru, and i am quite fond of his yoga poses, i practice daily the posture illustrated central bottom."

    S/he then checked out by saying:

    Love ta "yoose all."

    The easiest thing in the world would be to ignore BakerBunny. The comments were not helpful in developing the thread of Muggur's issue.

    I responded:

    BakerBunny:

    I thought we were talking about Falk's critique of I-I as a cult.

    Do you have any thoughts on that? Have you read Falk's critique?

    And what in the blooming heck are you talking about when you say that when you find similar themes in more than a few places, you tend to give the holon, or the map in this case, more consideration?

    Common courtesy dictates that you not breeze in and toss off an inane comment and the segue into a non sequitur followed by a something I know not what it is.

    So, what do you think of what I wrote to Muggur?  

    I see way too many people in the Integral forums who are sloppy and lazy. I know, you must be fired to code red right now hearing that, right?

    Sloppy means that they do not organize their thoughts. They don't even try to create meaningful text that represents anything more than their passing mood. Their ideas and terms are often flabby, loose, vague, and lacking in any referential content. "E.g. giving the holon more consideration."

    I do not have a problem if a retarded child cannot read or write and s/he writes a poem that is just barely beyond nonsense. S/he has done the best given their ability. I would hug that child.

    But when fully functioning adults are too goddamned sloppy to share their thoughts in a coherent way, that is fine too. As long as they respect the arena or circle in which others are sincerely and honestly trying to contribute.

    I want to insist that everyone at least try!! It doesn't have to be brilliant. But at least do your best!

    BakerBunny basically said, "I don't even have time to waste on this topic. Hey, Witz, wanna go grab a pizza? What's your favorite topping? I really like Dominoes."

    Each of us has a sense of how to use words in an accurate way to make meaningful statements. And we also have a sense of how we can create ambiguities and even insinuate that we are speaking in a meaningful code.

    The whole hip hop phenomenon and "love to yoose all" epidemic is founded on laziness and insinuation. Code words are layered on code words and the uninitiated are bullied into wondering "am I outside of the core?" Why do I not know what they are talking about? Generally, they are talking about nothing. The words are used in a sloppy, insinuational way to evoke generalized moods.

    America is drowning in bullshit, Witz! Half of our youth cannot even locate Europe on a map!! They are getting away with talking like 50cent and they are losing the ability to focus on an idea for 2 minutes. Can you believe this? They have the tools, they are capable, but no one is insisting that they do the work, take the time to hone the skills. We tolerate it and encourage it even.

    There are absolutely wonderful, high level things that emerge when you discipline yourself and really try to do your best! And the Integral vision is about restoring recognition of the hierarchical wonders of existence. Which is to say, "there is something more valuable at a higher level when words are employed in an organized way through dialogue compared to when words are thrown around with no discipline or attempt to convey or develop an idea."

    I do not know BakerBunny. But when s/he made an inane comment about finding "similar themes" and giving the "holon, or the map" more consideration, I thought that s/he could benefit from being reminded that:

    - in a cyber forum, the most precious quality is focus. It is too easy to jump into a thread and distract it with nonsense or irrelevant comments.

    But, the deeper issue is this: when people are trying their best to wrestle with an idea, it is massively rude to jump in and divert the conversation to a dialogue about something completely unrelated.

    You know, this is a favorite power politics ploy. You listen while people share their energy and thoughts and then during a lull, you breeze in with a quick line that dismisses the relevancy of everything that has been said, and you change the subject, starting up a one-on-one exchange with one party about a completely unrelated subject on a different level.

    I found BakerBunny's post to be rude and lazy. And I think that there is enormous potential for the Integral community forum to be a treasure trove of interesting and useful ideas (sorry, I can't give you a massage, or play music for you, or dance for you using my keyboard - I can only orchestrate words in a string...). But it depends on everyone showing respect and focus and not bullshitting each other with idiotic comments that insinuate something deep is going on when what is really going is just laziness in spades.

    Ralph Weidner is a prolific contributor and to me sounds like a really nice guy. But the other day, after I had shared idea after idea on the subject of "power" or "kuntu" as it is reflected in politics, he breezed in with an off-hand dismissive remark, "I don't take it seriously." What kind of shit is this? No courtesy of an explanation, no attempt to even identify what it is he doesn't take seriously, just a one-liner as he is breezing by? I found it to be lazy and I told him so. And to dismiss a developed idea with a one line comment that doesn't even try to meet the discussion in a meaningful way is flat out rude.  

    Call me a living incarnation of the shadow if you like. I will respond by saying "grow up and stop being a lazy ass, work with us here to make the community have a little more integrity and form. Let's cut the junk."

    I suspect you are thinking, "this guy won't let go. He is a krank!" I can fully understand your wondering whether I am a rabid lunatic.

    I am a very generous guy and I have what I believe to be an effective spiritual practice. I am doing my best to hit the different aspects of my ILP.

    I also am convinced that within the realm of rational discourse, the world, and America in particular, is swimming in massive piles of bullshit. And it grows and grows because we are too lazy to insist on meaning and also ... because we are all politicians who dare not offend anyone.

    Stand on your own feet, Witz. We don't need your alliances. Stop trying to win votes for an election that will never be held. We need your integrity and effort.  

    So, I see BakerBunny's post as a microcosmic exemplar of the above. And I am convinced that BakerBunny can understand. And the sun will come up tomorrow for him/her and life will be good. And ... I still have not gotten any kind of response to my questions. I think BakerBunny is capable of telling us what s/he thinks of Falk's piece, if she takes the time to locate and read it, but doesn't feel it is even worth trying.

    And as soon as I send this, I am going to go have lunch. Maybe soup.

    Ciao Witz. And thanks for sharing. Looking forward to hearing about what you are doing good and some kind of acknowledgement that you understand the healthy side of what I am ranting about.

     


     

     
  •  05-07-2008, 2:34 PM 49662 in reply to 49645

    Re: Stripping the gurus: The dis-integration of Ken Wilber

    Oo Man you really have a BIG Kundu, Schalk.


    Let's put it like this: You body-checked me and sent me straight to the ground. I guess that's a touchdown. (I'm not really familiar with american football. hope the terms are right)


    At first I thought: "O he was in the navy that's kinda cool. I wonder what Arthur will say (because Arthur/Adastra is always complaining about all these high school students having too much time for spamming the forum). And it's great that he knows napolitean dialect and writes books and does music and maybe we could begin chatting about this and that..."


    But then you went on and on and on and... you ran right over me. What can I say? You don't need my opinion, you are an army on your own. You don't need anyone! I mean you seem to have an agenda, right? I bet you will do whatever needs to be done to achieve your goal? That's the impression that I get. And that's kind of ...scary, actually. I mean you make the batcar look like a child's toy!! You seem to believe that the world can be saved in the next 48 hours, but - hey, I don't think that will happen (it would be great, but I am not believing it - simple statistics, you know).


    I think it's good to be passionate about things that are worth it. But i don't know if what you are doing is the best way to get a change going.


    You are a really charismatic guy. A political talent. As a german, I am always skeptical about this kind of leadership, that's sort of a cultural heritage. Nothing personal.


    Uh, my attention span is running out. I have to stop now. Bye,


    witz

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