Arthur, I have been writing on another thread this morning, and suddenly started thinking about you and Helene dancing again.  Your dancing reminded me of the parabel in the bible, of the woman who takes her two shillings to the gate of heaven and is granted loving and joyful admission. Then the rich guy came along with all sorts of finery and treasures, half of all he owned, but considerably more than two measly shillings---yet, he got sent away again. He was kinda pissed off, because after all he brought so much and that little bag lady with the pink purse with the black polkadots and the purple beads got through the friggin' gate with merely two shillings, and what the hell did the big guy at the door expect anyway.....  Anyway, it turns out, she got into the dance, and can still be seen dancing away on the cosmic dance floor because she brought all she had.  There she is, look at her, her name is Helen in this incarnation, doing the hokey pokey, on the Cosmic floor of Life, shamelessly it would appear from my perspective...and it makes me wonder if that rich guy is you. Are you are still only bringing half of your treasure,  and thus refusing yourself the price admission? Is that you hanging out at the door perplexed because you have no control over who gets to enter and who doesn't, and mildly pissed off that with all your brilliance and talent, you have not got yourself in there yet?.....I may be wrong, but I 'm just sayin'....  As far as I can tell, it does not matter what you bring to the dance, how far up the tier thingy you've clammored, or how many hours you've clocked on those boring mats.  It just matters that you bring everything that you've got...and you offer it all. That takes an amazing courage.....and the thing is, we never know the half of another person, and only if we are lucky will we ever know ourselves.

 

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The fabric of my life is the cloth with which it is my responsibility to polish the lense of my own perception

Hi Jane,

JaneMC:

It just matters that you bring everything that you've got...and you offer it all. That takes an amazing courage.....and the thing is, we never know the half of another person, and only if we are lucky will we ever know ourselves.

Spank me for being off-topic, but I need to say this: a million thanks Jane, all I got.

Peter
 

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Albert Einstein is the Wilber of physics.

I go away for a two week meditation retreat and come back to find that IN has become ---er--- well, at least lively. 

I would like to spank any and all people who try to teach meditation who really aren't very successful at it themselves. I don't care what empowerments you have, if you're a snide, passive-aggressive weenus, you probably shouldn't be teaching meditation. Some guy with a Master's in Psych tries to manipulate my thinking...goatee, slight Freud accent and all.   Phukin' unbelievable.  Good to be able to see him as suffering and not get my knickers in a twist about it (The Julie-personality hates it when people try to manipulate her, and hates it even worse when they succeed).

And people who teach about awareness whose answers don't assemble into any coherent view.
But mostly I did tonglen and even cried for them a little. I am really turning into a marshmallow (so you don't have to say it, Liz).

But if a good spanking would help, I would be first to stand in line. With a big-ass paddle.  WHACK!

Glad to see the filters gone.  Will be back when I want to bask further in the return of unruliness to IN...off to do laundry.

Maybe I should leave more often.

Julie

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All of my thoughts, like junkyard dogs, guarding scraps of nothing......
Bird York

hey Julie and  all's'KI , back from the loudry room yet?

yuki heck  if i would ask or allowed anyone to whack me!!:( but that's just me.

bringing half of one's treasure and refusing yourself the price of admission?....afraid to claim our birth - right divinity...our identification with the universal Self? ... no sweat, just own all the parts, even the ones that seem the very least divine and voila! there it is. you  can't hide notin' from You anyway, anyhow, matters not how You slice it, it always is You.

h 

 

lol - Jane, do you have nothing more compelling to think about?    Poor grrl.

Here's the deal: I momentarily felt offended and annoyed by some shit that Helen posted in the Update On Ken's Health thread, and chose to playfully blow off some steam by starting this thread with a (IMHO) well-deserved spanking of Helen.  You can turn it into a symposium on the deep psychology of the Helen-adastra forum dance if you want, but I've little interest in that subject.

(As for me bringing only have my treasure here; how right you are - the other half I'm going to share with Liz tonight when she gets here.  Sorry, y'all don't get to see that part of my treasure.)

As far as this thread is concerned, I'd rather see more spanking, myself.  So tone down the highbrow shit (at least in this thread) or I'll have Helen give you the spanking you so richly deserve...




Actually, there is one more thing I'd like to say...if "our dancing" reminds you so much of that parable, why not try treating it as a dream you're having, and mine it for possible symbolic significance from that perspective?  It doesn't score much of an emotional hit with me, but thanks for sharing. 

arthur

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"Dwell in possibility" - Emily Dickinson

Hey Jane,

?.....I may be wrong, but I 'm just sayin'...." src="/Public/cs/emoticons/emotion-19.gif">  As far as I can tell, it does not matter what you bring to the dance, how far up the tier thingy you've clammored, or how many hours you've clocked on those boring mats.  It just matters that you bring everything that you've got...and you offer it all. That takes an amazing courage.....and the thing is, we never know the half of another person, and only if we are lucky will we ever know ourselves.

That's what I call spankin' on all cylinders!!!

R.K.

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"No problem can be solved at the level of consciousness that created it in the first place!"

887 Posts on Forum #1; 222 Posts on Forum #2......Member Since 8/8/2003

Well, I am totally not having any fun here now…The last bout of spanking hurt me…..reminded me of the wooden spoon, and leaning over the bathtub when I was little. I remember it oh so well: “Don’t put your hands there to protect yourself.”  Oh god, I used to try not to move, not flinch, not to cry, not to react….Reflexes, damn reflexes, got me every time.…little strips of purple bruises on little bums all lined in  a row.  Thank god for Alice Miller. Breathe in, breathe out.

 

yep, I am packing it in on this thread.  And more, it is true, I don't have anything better to do than dream about people I don't really know, at least not this minute anyhow...So recognizing that in any dream, the dreamer is all of the players in the dream and then some, I am taking  the bag lady and the other guy at the Kosmic Klub with me over to Fred Kofman’s lecture on More Truth, More Perspectives Part 2.  I think Fred might be able to teach me how to stop being such a bully…..how to stop projecting all those shadows, how to speak clean language, how to accept 200% of the conversation and even how to detoxify the other person’s language for them, when they can’t do it themselves. Man, I am going to have to stay over there for a while….I am only a beginner at this. He is going to tell me that too: that I am only a beginner. I already heard him tell me this once.…. I know what else he is going to say.  “It takes two people to fight, one person to stop the war….yes and unfortunately, two people to cooperate”…..mu….I want to learn to be cooperative…I want to be gentle…....

I am spanking clean outta here.  Healing vibes all around…..xx000

Jane

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The fabric of my life is the cloth with which it is my responsibility to polish the lense of my own perception

Well, I am totally not having any fun here now…The last bout of spanking hurt me…..reminded me of the wooden spoon, and leaning over the bathtub when I was little.….I want to learn to be cooperative…I want to be gentle…....

I am spanking clean outta here.

Sounds to me like this was the perfect, though not most fun, place for you to be!!  That has been my experience with the best aspects of the forums........(and the fact that most people here understand that).  Glad you are (or were) here........

R.K.

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"No problem can be solved at the level of consciousness that created it in the first place!"

887 Posts on Forum #1; 222 Posts on Forum #2......Member Since 8/8/2003

JaneMc:

Well, I am totally not having any fun here now…The last bout of spanking hurt me…..reminded me of the wooden spoon, and leaning over the bathtub when I was little. I remember it oh so well: “Don’t put your hands there to protect yourself.”  Oh god, I used to try not to move, not flinch, not to cry, not to react….Reflexes, damn reflexes, got me every time.…little strips of purple bruises on little bums all lined in  a row.  Thank god for Alice Miller. Breathe in, breathe out.

yep, I am packing it in on this thread.  And more, it is true, I don't have anything better to do than dream about people I don't really know, at least not this minute anyhow...So recognizing that in any dream, the dreamer is all of the players in the dream and then some, I am taking  the bag lady and the other guy at the Kosmic Klub with me over to Fred Kofman’s lecture on More Truth, More Perspectives Part 2.  I think Fred might be able to teach me how to stop being such a bully…..how to stop projecting all those shadows, how to speak clean language, how to acce 200% of the conversation and even how to detoxify the other person’s language for them, when they can’t do it themselves. Man, I am going to have to stay over there for a while….I am only a beginner at this. He is going to tell me that too: that I am only a beginner. I already heard him tell me this once.…. I know what else he is going to say.  “It takes two people to fight, one person to stop the war….yes and unfortunately, two people to cooperate”…..mu….I want to learn to be cooperative…I want to be gentle…....

Can you tell me more about what's upsetting you, Jane?  In clear, non-metaphorical language?  This is how it seems to me:  you present your viewpoint in a very indirect fashion, I respond, and then you get really upset and end the conversation.

I'm particularly curious about this: "how to detoxify the other person’s language for them, when they can’t do it themselves" - do you feel that my language is toxic, and that I can't detoxify it myself?  I get the impression that a lot of what you're saying here is aimed at me, even though ostensibly it is all about you.  But that could be entirely my projection - for sure I feel triggered - and when you speak in such an indirect way I find it impossible to separate my reactions from what you are actually saying.

Therefore I invite you to speak a lot more directly - no holds barred, we're in the seventh circle after all – and maybe we'll come to a deeper understanding.

arthur

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"Dwell in possibility" - Emily Dickinson

So first, I am busted regarding whether I have lurked around this thread to see what transpired.....I am sitting in the emergency at the Labrador Health Center...and the evening rush is quelled and I am waiting for an ambulance to arrive in a while......

Plain, non-metaphorical language. hmmm.....

Arthur, you tell me that you are triggered. I am triggered too when you speak about Helene, and you often do.  When you tell me I should own my version of that parabel and mine it for meaning for myself, I think you've got a point.......  I find myself feeling irritated and helpless when I watch your behaviour......Really: So what if you admittedly don't have much of a sense of who Helene is, or why she posts, or what she looks like, or what her posts even mean(and you may not always be alone here), and so what if you are (in my opinion) often rude and disparaging of her (and even if  sometimes witty and funny while you do it).  Frankly, Helene does not seem to get particularly irritated by your remarks(she is quite remarkable in this regard, shameless....I really like this quality in her...) and your behaviour towards her does not seem to affect her deeply, so why do I care? 

I watch the aspect of you when you speak about her, or to her(and please call it a shadow of myself, which, on some level, is just as true, not as it pertains to Helene, but as it pertains to other things, you for instance.)......I imagine that there is almost no insult that you would not say to her.....I imagine you telling her to leave, that there is no place for her at this snobolarola 'elite nest of integral thinking'....I imagine you lacking compassion and regard for her as a sentient being......I see you smugly criticising her. I imagine you being downright cruel......in short I imagine you believing that she(and any other aspect of the world that you find distasteful or annoying) is the bane of your existance...If not for Helene, (and whatever other people you deem to be trolls and low-lifes) the world according to Adastra would be perfect. And then I look at myself and there I am doing the very thing that I imagine you doing---ie) if not for all the people in the world (you,  Arthur, being the incarnation of the moment) who spend their time trying to fix and modify their neighbour instead of attending to their own behaviour, well, then wouldn't my world just be dandy....and there I am caught in my own web.  I am really holding you accountable(at least in my heart if not always out here on the forum) for the very behaviour I am engaging in myself.  There am I, intolerant of intolerance......and the beat goes on, and I am shoulding all over the place.

It is a really hard lesson, that the work that I have to do is really my work, and the work of my neighbour, be that neighbour you or Helene or Fred the guy who used to yell at me about my husky team, well that is NOT my work.  And even in the act writing to you about this, there is a quality of hidden recrimination in it for you, as if I am trying to expose you and force you to do work that I think you need to do(by for instance being some good example for you of the marvellous me doing my own work, right out here in public even!)......and that fact almost silences me again.... Like you said, "take your highbrowed shit off this thread".......The truth is that I don't know what you should do.....anymore than you know what Helene should do......I am annoyed that you do not seem to understand or respect this basic truth that you don't know what Helen should do, and I am annoyed at myself because I think you should know this truth, and I want to tell you so, and I want you to behave differently and according to this truth.....so there is the proof. I am accompanied by the very germ from which I flee.  A deeper layer of my own arrogance is revealed. 

So, indeed, when I say I am off to Fred Hoffman's talk about more perspective and more truth, I am telling you that with all sincerity....and I am  taking the aspect of me that is triggered, the aspect of me that thinks you should behave differently, the aspect of me that wants to tell you what I think you should do, the aspect of me that is a passive-aggressive control freak, and I am taking this over to the lecture, for some cleaning and polishing, for a reality check, for some honest light......And indeed, Fred has told me that I am a beginner!....if you listen to the lecture, you will see him do it.  It is perfectly clear to me. This is why I am a beginner:  I want to establish communal rules for clear linguistic hygiene, and then I want to teach them to everyone and then I want to be able to hold people accountable for following them, because, I believe that if everyone did, the world would be a better place!....But suddenly, when I am listening to Fred,  I realize, he is way ahead of me....So what, he says, if people don't follow the communal rules, don't own their perspectives, thoughts, or feelings. "I will own 200% of the responsibility for the conversation.  I will detoxify their language." I realize that truly, I don't know how to do this very well. I realize that I have always felt like a victim at the mercy of people who refuse to acknowledge their own shadows, and who are linguistically toxic...but suddenly, there is some light at the end of the tunnel.....I am back on a learning curve......

So Arthur, my opinion of you at this point, is really a reflection of a triggered aspect of myself......and even in writing this down, there is more light  shed on this shadow of mine, so thanks for the invitation.....It is interesting also in your request for 'non-metaphorical' language......to me non-metaphorical language is less clear than metaphorical language, and I forget that this is not always the case for other  people with whom I am talking.

And still after all this, the thing that puzzles me is how to establish trusting mutual relationships where it becomes possible to gently shed light on the assholean qualities of people that I love(and vice versa that they shed light on me) --non judgementally, without hidden barbs or shoulds or innuendo, but by simply noticing and sharing  observations without ego-driven judgement, that certain behaviours and qualities  are creating  suffering and pain...... As  Fred said, "unfortunately, it takes two to co-operate."  I am imagining that he is talking about this co-operation in terms of creating these mutual trusting relationships. I have not got this figured out.....though I have been puzzling over it for a very long time..... It seems the very assholean qualities themselves prevent the mutuality that is necessary to explore them....damn, another catch22.

 I think ee cummings said:  "I need to learn to love my crooked neighbour with my crooked heart."

Anyway, back to the polishing....

 

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The fabric of my life is the cloth with which it is my responsibility to polish the lense of my own perception

Thank you Jane.  Please provide a link to the Fred lecture you are referring to.  I will be pondering your post and will respond in due course.

arthur

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"Dwell in possibility" - Emily Dickinson

http://in.integralinstitute.org/live/view_kofman3.aspx#More_Perspectives_part

 

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The fabric of my life is the cloth with which it is my responsibility to polish the lense of my own perception

Helen once spanked me as hard as she could...

... but the healing power of her hands on my bare bottom was so great,

 I didn't even feel it.

 

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Peace & Prosperity

Paul Williams
http://Paul.ikarma.com

Beautifully self-reflexive Jane. Really.

I myself am of two minds: I admire Helene's often heedless style, yet like Adastra do feel that a little self-editing wouldn't go amiss now and again. Where I part company with that gentleman is feeling I have the right to administer a regular bitch slap. And they are bitch slaps, admirable sir. ( in so many other ways).
Maybe, though, if its cool for Helene to meander, its cool for Arthur to be Adastra and respond according to his lights?

Where's the, 'highest self' on this one?

if yous' oooonly knew! almost all of my longer than two sentences posts are edited. why? because with edit - time i can finish my thought. such as it is . boohooo.. why? .i'm a two finger typer and the computer time-limit  troll cuts me off .

Jane whatever are you doing at the Labrador;s  Health Center? you ok?

and speaking of subtle hit-slapping ...i would never belive such a thing if i didn't personally experince it. and why not? if one can feel ummm .. lovie-dovie's  loving touch , then.........

h